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Sister_Amy
Guest
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Do you say that Allah is an idol?
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Booklover
Guest
Do you consider this a rational answer? It’s replies such as these, that make me believe that Muslims have lost the power of reasoning and only quote what they’ve been programmed with.Diverting the discussion? I’m merely responding to posts.
Is there a reason you needed to write in all caps? Do you find that it demonstrates… how did eichenb2 put it?.. reasoning, rationality, and charity?
Oh wait, no, that would be diverting the discussion… d’oh!!!
Where is the proof that the Qur’an is from God? This is an excellent question, thank you so much for asking it. It’s very insightful, because the whole of Islam depends upon the answer. The proof that the Qur’an is from God is that the Qur’an is a miracle. It is no more possible for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead than for Muhammad to write/compose the Qur’an. Neither could happen without the will and power of God, defying rationale and logic, and even science. The proof is that the Qur’an is a miracle, that no human could possibly have originated it, therefore it must be from God.
How is the Quran a miracle? I see nothing there that would make me believe that it’s from God.
There’s a very big difference between raising the dead and writing a book! Did Muhammad ever say that he had the power to forgive sins as Jesus did? If Jesus is just a prophet, why did he claim the power to forgive sins?
How does it follow that if the Quran could not originate from a human, that it means it comes from God, and not from the great deceiver, Satan himself?
This proof of yours would never stand up in court!
Vickie
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eichenb2
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“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Excellent.
Belief is not solely a rational experience, it also has spiritual components. I am not going to attempt to battle you with reason or logic which is fundamentally flawed in the first place. And so you find my arguments too rock solid to debate.It’s hard to see if you’re not looking. Every chapter, every verse, every word, every letter testifies to the miraculous nature of the Qur’an. There are a variety of complexities which make it impossible to believe that Muhammad himself authored the Qur’an. There are first the use of rhetorical devices and tools in the Qur’an, intricately intertwined, in every chapter. The best poets of the age couldn’t even begin to attempt language of such eloquence as in the Qur’an. There are also descriptions of such things in history and nature which Muhammad simply could not have known, things which could only be known by a witness to those historical events or to the Creator of such phenomena in nature. Every verse of the Qur’an is an ayah, a sign, a proof, if only you were looking.
Writing a book? Ah, let’s not diminish the miracle here. Muhammad was an illiterate man, and the Qur’an is a work of supreme eloquence in Arabic language surpassing all standards of poetic excellence at the time. This is something to consider!
To answer your question, however, which is an attempt to divert the discussion (it’s okay, I’ll bite), there is no reason for me to believe every word in the Bible you have attributed to Jesus. So your question is irrelevant.
This is an interesting question, so let’s give it some thought. Could the Qur’an possibly be from Satan? Even just some cursory reading and very simple grade-school rebuttals are enough to debunk such a silly suggestion. That is that before even opening the Qur’an Muslims are commanded to seek refuge in Allah from Satan.
In Whose Court do you think it will be standing up?
I don’t have any doubts about it. And the Qur’an, if you could manage to open it up, to just the second verse of the second chapter, is a Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those who are conscious of Allah.
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Sister_Amy
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Is that supposed to count as… a proof? Or what?
Muhammad never commanded anynoe to spread faith by the sword. Such an idea is as false as it is revolting. I would be embarassed to see such vile words repeated on the tongue of a spiritual leader.
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dzheremi
Guest
For this to be true, Christianity would need to be based around Paul exclusively. It isn’t.
Also, as a point of historical fact, the Romans continued in hostility to Christianity for many centuries before converting in 380 AD. Prior to this, Armenia and Ethiopia had both been converted (301 AD and c. 324 AD, respectively). So much for Christianity being a Roman invention, I guess…
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Claude_Frollo
Guest
Mohammad took his sword and fought. Perhaps he killed human beings too. Well as a prophet bearing a sword and attacking villages and sacking caravans must be a very good example. He fought and ordered men to fight and to kill, to invade.
Mohammad says kill who opposes you very clearly.
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Sister_Amy
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And your proposed response to an army attacking your people is… what exactly, if not fighting back?
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tqualey
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Hi, Reuben,
Having a focused prayer life is truly a blessing.
I am a “Cradel Catholic”. My knowledge of Muslims is limited. But, from my military friends and relatives who have come back from Mulslim countries, there is another aspect you need to consider.
Now, maybe this type of enforced religious practice is appropriate in these various cultures - but, I would immediately not equate the action with piety.
In response to the Original Post - you are truly to be commended for converting. Your action took great courage. To the best of my knowledge, Islam offers limited choice in the area of free expression. One either remains or is killed. Christian missionaries are murdered for being Christian missionaries - no matter what else they may be doing to help the people of an area. Human life appears to be on little or no value when identified by a leader of the local mosque.
God bless
Having a focused prayer life is truly a blessing.
I am a “Cradel Catholic”. My knowledge of Muslims is limited. But, from my military friends and relatives who have come back from Mulslim countries, there is another aspect you need to consider.
Maybe not so remarkable when you consider that there are ‘religious police’ who enforce this group prayer activity. Everything stops when the call to prayer is given because those who do not are seriously punished.
Now, maybe this type of enforced religious practice is appropriate in these various cultures - but, I would immediately not equate the action with piety.
In response to the Original Post - you are truly to be commended for converting. Your action took great courage. To the best of my knowledge, Islam offers limited choice in the area of free expression. One either remains or is killed. Christian missionaries are murdered for being Christian missionaries - no matter what else they may be doing to help the people of an area. Human life appears to be on little or no value when identified by a leader of the local mosque.
God bless
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eichenb2
Guest
You COMPLETELY (that means I am yelling out of frustration) do not get it! You have brought no proof! Divert the discussion, if you like, but you have mentioned nothing in the way of proof from anyone the sciences.You have not even resorted to a resonably rational defense that the Qur’an is from God. If you, simply, (and yes a comma is appropriate here) have faith in your belief, you are a Fideist, not a Muslim.
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jakasaki
Guest
So, how do you explain these verses from the Koran… Was Mohamad telling his followers to use broom sticks or straw perhaps.Is that supposed to count as… a proof? Or what?
Muhammad never commanded anynoe to spread faith by the sword. Such an idea is as false as it is revolting. I would be embarassed to see such vile words repeated on the tongue of a spiritual leader.
Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out … if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
The Cow: 2:191
Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you.
The Cow: 2:216
Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
Women 4:74
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.
Women 4:76
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
Women 4:89
If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
Women 4:91
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
Edit: The Table 5:33
I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
Edit: Spoils of War 8:12
When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw.
Edit: Spoils of War 8:15-17
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them.
Edit: Spoils of War 8:59-60
Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
Edit: Spoils of War 8:65
It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.
Edit: Spoils of War 8:67
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
Repentance 9:5
If they … assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief … Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them.
Repentance 9:12-14
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.
Repentance 9:73
Believers … shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.
Repentance 9:111
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.
Repentance 9:123
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks.
Muhamed 47:4
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eichenb2
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Yes. He did. To paraphrase him, he was commanded to fight until the people said there is no god but allah. Also, he said that this jihad would continue until the last day. Additionally, he said that God allowed a man to beat his wife and rape slaves. He, himself, had sex with a 9 year old when he was almost 60. This is all in your books!Is that supposed to count as… a proof? Or what?
Muhammad never commanded anynoe to spread faith by the sword. Such an idea is as false as it is revolting. I would be embarassed to see such vile words repeated on the tongue of a spiritual leader.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Eh? A Fideist you say? I had to look that one up. Wikipedia says: Fideism is a school of thought which maintains that faith is independent of reason, or that reason and faith are hostile to each other and faith is superior at arriving at particular truths.
But that is not my opinion.
First of all, I did give you proof. I said that the Qur’an is a miracle. The composition of it exceeds human capabilities. A human being could not have authored it, it’s too complex, therefore it must be from Allah. It is a miracle that I have witnessed and everyone else can witness if they want to. Unlike the miracles of Jesus, or Moses, which have been reduced to hearsay only.
If you want to challenge my proof, then you need to offer something. Resorting to complex Latin terms to dismiss my proofs shows me that it’s you who are diverting the discussion, your own discussion, and you are ill-equipped to refute the miraculous nature of the Qur’an.
If you’re looking for some other kind of proof, other than the miracle staring you in the face, maybe you can give me some hint in that direction. Because as far as I’m concerned the Qur’an is a miracle.
Moreover, it is not my opinion that belief is independent of reason, but that belief is founded on rational and spiritual components–not entirely either one.
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Sister_Amy
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This looks like a diversion to me…Yes. He did. To paraphrase him, he was commanded to fight until the people said there is no god but allah. Also, he said that this jihad would continue until the last day. Additionally, he said that God allowed a man to beat his wife and rape slaves. He, himself, had sex with a 9 year old when he was almost 60. This is all in your books!
What the poster said was that Muhammad commanded people to spread faith by the sword. Spread by the sword. What is it, cream cheese? Faith cannot be spread by the sword, such a notion is utterly ridiculous.
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Booklover
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Faith without reason leads to fundamentalism and fanaticism.Excellent.
Rock solid? Sister Amy, you flatter yourself! They’re completely nonsensical!
Again, you fail to bring any proof! None of this proves anything.It’s hard to see if you’re not looking. Every chapter, every verse, every word, every letter testifies to the miraculous nature of the Qur’an. There are a variety of complexities which make it impossible to believe that Muhammad himself authored the Qur’an. There are first the use of rhetorical devices and tools in the Qur’an, intricately intertwined, in every chapter. The best poets of the age couldn’t even begin to attempt language of such eloquence as in the Qur’an. There are also descriptions of such things in history and nature which Muhammad simply could not have known, things which could only be known by a witness to those historical events or to the Creator of such phenomena in nature. Every verse of the Qur’an is an ayah, a sign, a proof, if only you were looking.
Writing a book? Ah, let’s not diminish the miracle here. Muhammad was an illiterate man, and the Qur’an is a work of supreme eloquence in Arabic language surpassing all standards of poetic excellence at the time. This is something to consider!
Can you think of a better way for Satan to deceive anyone?
That’s your opinion, and not any credible proof!In Whose Court do you think it will be standing up?
Vickie
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Sister_Amy
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You cannot fight me with anything more beloved to me than the Qur’an.So, how do you explain these verses from the Koran… Was Mohamad telling his followers to use broom sticks or straw perhaps.
I love it when Christians try to argue with me using the Qur’an, it just makes me so happy. Muhammad did not write those verses, first of all. Allah did. So the command would be from Allah–but only a minor distinction there.
The bigger point is that the verses are telling the Muslims to fight, for sure, but why? To make people Muslim? No way. Not to forcibly or violently “spread” Islam. Not to convert people. The reason that fighting is allowed and sometimes even commanded is the important thing to understand, and NEVER is it to force people into Islam.
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eichenb2
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OK, you got me. You are not a 100% fideist, however, you did express similar sentiment.
This is your proof??? You feel the Qur’an is a miracle because noone have written anything like it.??? Who judges ??? You??? This is absurd! On this basis, Shakespeare could be considered a prophet, since his writing is good. I guess if he had taken an army and sacked London, raped woman, and married little girls. The criteria that you mention is COMPLETELY subjective!!! Please bring some historical, archeological, rational, or our like proof. All that you have done so far is weekly suggest that there is the posibility of linguistic merit to your claim.
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tobinatorstark
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Just because you say that the Qur’an is a miracle doesn’t make it a miracle. Proof? What proof??? You haven’t provided any proof anything regarding why we should be Muslim and adhere to the pedophile Mohammad are believe in the corrupt Quar’an that he concated. Only Jesus preformed miracles, not Moses. IF Jesus is teaching heresy and that is a big IF then over 1 Billion Catholic have been deceived and the countless number of Protestants. I don’t think so. Mohammad is heresy at its finest.
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eichenb2
Guest
You are write you are diverting, again!This looks like a diversion to me…
What the poster said was that Muhammad commanded people to spread faith by the sword. Spread by the sword. What is it, cream cheese? Faith cannot be spread by the sword, such a notion is utterly ridiculous.
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