Why don't Muslims become Christian?

[Booklover]

Eh? A Fideist you say? I had to look that one up. Wikipedia says: Fideism is a school of thought which maintains that faith is independent of reason, or that reason and faith are hostile to each other and faith is superior at arriving at particular truths.

But that is not my opinion.

First of all, I did give you proof. I said that the Qur’an is a miracle. The composition of it exceeds human capabilities. A human being could not have authored it, it’s too complex, therefore it must be from Allah. It is a miracle that I have witnessed and everyone else can witness if they want to. Unlike the miracles of Jesus, or Moses, which have been reduced to hearsay only.

If you want to challenge my proof, then you need to offer something. Resorting to complex Latin terms to dismiss my proofs shows me that it’s you who are diverting the discussion, your own discussion, and you are ill-equipped to refute the miraculous nature of the Qur’an.

If you’re looking for some other kind of proof, other than the miracle staring you in the face, maybe you can give me some hint in that direction. Because as far as I’m concerned the Qur’an is a miracle.

Moreover, it is not my opinion that belief is independent of reason, but that belief is founded on rational and spiritual components–not entirely either one.

So basically the Quran is a miracle because Sister Amy believes it is! How can we poor unbelievers refute such logic as this!

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Faith without reason leads to fundamentalism and fanaticism.

Fluffy floating french fries fail to flatter fruit fries.

Didn’t Jesus say, according to your Bible, Blessed are those who have not seen me, and yet have believed? Sounds to me like he was encouraging faith without reason.

Rock solid? Sister Amy, you flatter yourself! They’re completely nonsensical!

They make sense to me, which makes me think that someone’s ability to determine what is sensical or not is slightly impaired.

Again, you fail to bring any proof! None of this proves anything.

The whole paragraph was a proof, if you’d read it. The Qur’an is the proof. What’s so hard about that to understand?

Can you think of a better way for Satan to deceive anyone?

Yes… by telling them that they should love their Messenger so much… love him so much that they begin to think he is God! A’udhubillah.

That’s your opinion, and not any credible proof!

I was quoting Qur’an again, which is definitely NOT my opinion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK, you got me. You are not a 100% fideist, however, you did express similar sentiment.
This is your proof??? You feel the Qur’an is a miracle because noone have written anything like it.??? Who judges ??? You??? This is absurd! On this basis, Shakespeare could be considered a prophet, since his writing is good. I guess if he had taken an army and sacked London, raped woman, and married little girls. The criteria that you mention is COMPLETELY subjective!!! Please bring some historical, archeological, rational, or our like proof. All that you have done so far is weekly suggest that there is the posibility of linguistic merit to your claim.

What about the Qur’an isn’t historical, archeological, or rational? I am really confused here. I have no clue what you’re looking for.

 

[jakasaki]

You cannot fight me with anything more beloved to me than the Qur’an. I love it when Christians try to argue with me using the Qur’an, it just makes me so happy.

Muhammad did not write those verses, first of all. Allah did. So the command would be from Allah–but only a minor distinction there.

Sister Amy - All I did was post the verses from the Koran.

And here is the first one from “spoils of war”…

8:1 They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.

Why would Allah want the spoils of war and in a very convienient way, his messenger, Mohamad should have all of the “war booty”…??

Mohamad wrote (scribed) those verses because it is clear in the Koran that Allah **never **spoke to Mohamad and that his instructions were given to him by the angel Gabriel.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Sister Amy - All I did was post the verses from the Koran.

And here is the first one from “spoils of war”…

8:1 They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.

Why would Allah want the spoils of war and in a very convienient way, his messenger, Mohamad should have all of the “war booty”…??

Mohamad wrote (scribed) those verses because it is clear in the Koran that Allah **never **spoke to Mohamad and that his instructions were given to him by the angel Gabriel.

I guess even Muslims distort what they consider to be the truth

 

[Booklover]

OK, you got me. You are not a 100% fideist, however, you did express similar sentiment.
This is your proof??? You feel the Qur’an is a miracle because noone have written anything like it.??? Who judges ??? You??? This is absurd! On this basis, Shakespeare could be considered a prophet, since his writing is good. I guess if he had taken an army and sacked London, raped woman, and married little girls. The criteria that you mention is COMPLETELY subjective!!! Please bring some historical, archeological, rational, or our like proof. All that you have done so far is weekly suggest that there is the posibility of linguistic merit to your claim.

Vickie

 

[eichenb2]

Fluffy floating french fries fail to flatter fruit fries.
Didn’t Jesus say, according to your Bible, Blessed are those who have not seen me, and yet have believed? Sounds to me like he was encouraging faith without reason.
They make sense to me, which makes me think that someone’s ability to determine what is sensical or not is slightly impaired.
The whole paragraph was a proof, if you’d read it. The Qur’an is the proof. What’s so hard about that to understand?
Yes… by telling them that they should love their Messenger so much… love him so much that they begin to think he is God! A’udhubillah.
I was quoting Qur’an again, which is definitely NOT my opinion.

There you go again…diversion. I will be less flattering. Islam leads fanaticism.
If you are going to quote from Matthew 5, put it in context. Believing with seeing is part of faith. Jesus performed miracles for this very reason to encourage faith. Interestingly Muhammad did not.
Your “proofs” are nonsensicle and revolve around your belief, which does not make it true!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Just because you say that the Qur’an is a miracle doesn’t make it a miracle. Proof? What proof??? You haven’t provided any proof anything regarding why we should be Muslim and adhere to the pedophile Mohammad are believe in the corrupt Quar’an that he concated. Only Jesus preformed miracles, not Moses. IF Jesus is teaching heresy and that is a big IF then over 1 Billion Catholic have been deceived and the countless number of Protestants. I don’t think so. Mohammad is heresy at its finest.

Since I haven’t talked to you much before, I would like to respond. Let’s put the Qur’an aside for just a moment, and your absurd and offensive insults about a man who is more beloved to me than my own parents.

Let’s talk about Moses, just for a second. Moses was leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt, with Pharaoh and his army on their tail, until Moses arrives at the Red Sea. And what does he do? Puts his staff to the water and… the waters part. Right? This is a miracle. No way that could have happened without divine intervention–specifically, the power to part the waters was from God, not Moses. But we say Moses performed the miracle, which was a proof that he was sent by God.

Now, how could anyone see the water of the Red Sea split open like that, for the Children of Israel to travel across, and deny that Moses was a prophet? While the waters crash back down on Pharaoh and his army, drowning them and the Israelites escape, how could anyone refuse to believe? Textbook definition of a miracle.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Jesus also performed miracles, the example which I gave was raising Lazarus. Jesus performed this miracle by the power of God, yes? He calls it the “glory of God” if I recall correctly, and says that the purpose was for people to believe that Jesus had been sent by God.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Muhammad performed miracles also. And I don’t use them as proof, because I didn’t see them and neither did you. But the Qur’an is right in front of us, a lasting miracle.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy - All I did was post the verses from the Koran.

And here is the first one from “spoils of war”…

8:1 They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.

Why would Allah want the spoils of war and in a very convienient way, his messenger, Mohamad should have all of the “war booty”…??

Why do tithe monies go to the church?

 

[Sister_Amy]

There you go again…diversion. I will be less flattering. Islam leads fanaticism.
If you are going to quote from Matthew 5, put it in context. Believing with seeing is part of faith. Jesus performed miracles for this very reason to encourage faith. Interestingly Muhammad did not.
Your “proofs” are nonsensicle and revolve around your belief, which does not make it true!

Believing with seeing is part of faith, you said. How do you believe in Jesus without seeing him, then?

Muhammad of course did perform miracles, which encouraged faith. I could narrate them to you (but I probably won’t) but the greatest miracle is the one that you yourself can actually see, instead of having to rely on hearsay, as you do with the miracles of Jesus, and Moses, for example.

What is the purpose of a proof anyway? I wonder, based on your last statement. Shouldn’t proofs revolve around belief? Though they are not necessary to make belief true.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Because God commands Christians not to transgress the limits of their religion, but yet they do.

That doesn’t hold water. If that is so, then you as a Muslim have a dilemma – either there are a good number of Muslims who transgress the limits of Islam (extremists and terrorists and such) (in which case your criticisms apply just as much to Islam) or you must admit that Islam really is a religion of violence and hate.

The Qur’an is God’s final revelation to mankind. That’s a real good reason not to become a Christian–it would require disbelieving in scripture, disbelieving in a prophet, and worshiping a human being. It’s moving backwards.

Christians should become Muslims–that’s the natural progression.

Now you should know that Muhammed was deceived by Satan. It was the great liar who came to him in the vision and gave him that satanic “revelation”.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m getting tired of being accused of diverting the thread when I’m only answering posts.

My posts only get answered with “that’s nonsensical” and “stop diverting” and “Muhammad married little girls.”

What’s the point?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Since I haven’t talked to you much before, I would like to respond. Let’s put the Qur’an aside for just a moment, and your absurd and offensive insults about a man who is more beloved to me than my own parents.

Let’s talk about Moses, just for a second. Moses was leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt, with Pharaoh and his army on their tail, until Moses arrives at the Red Sea. And what does he do? Puts his staff to the water and… the waters part. Right? This is a miracle. No way that could have happened without divine intervention–specifically, the power to part the waters was from God, not Moses. But we say Moses performed the miracle, which was a proof that he was sent by God.

Now, how could anyone see the water of the Red Sea split open like that, for the Children of Israel to travel across, and deny that Moses was a prophet? While the waters crash back down on Pharaoh and his army, drowning them and the Israelites escape, how could anyone refuse to believe? Textbook definition of a miracle.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Jesus also performed miracles, the example which I gave was raising Lazarus. Jesus performed this miracle by the power of God, yes? He calls it the “glory of God” if I recall correctly, and says that the purpose was for people to believe that Jesus had been sent by God.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Muhammad performed miracles also. And I don’t use them as proof, because I didn’t see them and neither did you. But the Qur’an is right in front of us, a lasting miracle.

There was divine intervention when the Red Sea parted. Divine intervention from God the father, not Allah. On what proof do you have that Muhammad performed miracles. Just because Michael Jordan made plays and shot unseen before by anyone doesn’t mean that he performed miracles. Why can’t you provide any proof??? I can provide all the proof I want about the Christian Bible, why can’t you provide any proof??? If everyone in this thread who isn’t Muslim can’t find your proof then where is it?? That is pretty bad when one of us in the discussion is a former Muslim. Sad I say.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Believing with seeing is part of faith, you said. How do you believe in Jesus without seeing him, then?

Muhammad of course did perform miracles, which encouraged faith. I could narrate them to you (but I probably won’t) but the greatest miracle is the one that you yourself can actually see, instead of having to rely on hearsay, as you do with the miracles of Jesus, and Moses, for example.

What is the purpose of a proof anyway? I wonder, based on your last statement. Shouldn’t proofs revolve around belief? Though they are not necessary to make belief true.

you keep contradicting yourself

 

[tobinatorstark]

I’m getting tired of being accused of diverting the thread when I’m only answering posts.

My posts only get answered with “that’s nonsensical” and “stop diverting” and “Muhammad married little girls.”

What’s the point?

Muhammad was a sick creep. Why should we believe anything from his filthy mouth??

 

[Sister_Amy]

That doesn’t hold water. If that is so, then you as a Muslim have a dilemma – either there are a good number of Muslims who transgress the limits of Islam (extremists and terrorists and such) (in which case your criticisms apply just as much to Islam) or you must admit that Islam really is a religion of violence and hate.

Eh? There are lots of Muslims who transgress the limits of Islam. Extremists and terrorists, for example.

Now you should know that Muhammed was deceived by Satan. It was the great liar who came to him in the vision and gave him that satanic “revelation”.

Do you acknowledge that it is impossible for a human to have composed the Qur’an?

 

[Booklover]

Since I haven’t talked to you much before, I would like to respond. Let’s put the Qur’an aside for just a moment, and your absurd and offensive insults about a man who is more beloved to me than my own parents.

Let’s talk about Moses, just for a second. Moses was leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt, with Pharaoh and his army on their tail, until Moses arrives at the Red Sea. And what does he do? Puts his staff to the water and… the waters part. Right? This is a miracle. No way that could have happened without divine intervention–specifically, the power to part the waters was from God, not Moses. But we say Moses performed the miracle, which was a proof that he was sent by God.

Now, how could anyone see the water of the Red Sea split open like that, for the Children of Israel to travel across, and deny that Moses was a prophet? While the waters crash back down on Pharaoh and his army, drowning them and the Israelites escape, how could anyone refuse to believe? Textbook definition of a miracle.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Jesus also performed miracles, the example which I gave was raising Lazarus. Jesus performed this miracle by the power of God, yes? He calls it the “glory of God” if I recall correctly, and says that the purpose was for people to believe that Jesus had been sent by God.

But how can you believe it? You didn’t see it…

Muhammad performed miracles also. And I don’t use them as proof, because I didn’t see them and neither did you. But the Qur’an is right in front of us, a lasting miracle.

Why should you love Muhammad more than your family? Couldn’t that be considered as idolatry?

Why is quoting things from your scriptures considered offensive or absurd unless they really are? You may consider Muhammad’s behavior above reproach and worthy of imitation, but we do not.

Do you believe that if you keep repeating that the Quran is a miracle, it will eventually be true?

Muhammad did not perform any miracles! Even the Quran states that he was only a warner. All those supposed miracles of Muhammad, many which are copied from those of Jesus, only started after a Christian bishop brought up the ones performed by Jesus!

Vickie

 

[eichenb2]

Believing with seeing is part of faith, you said. How do you believe in Jesus without seeing him, then?
Muhammad of course did perform miracles, which encouraged faith. I could narrate them to you (but I probably won’t) but the greatest miracle is the one that you yourself can actually see, instead of having to rely on hearsay, as you do with the miracles of Jesus, and Moses, for example.
What is the purpose of a proof anyway? I wonder, based on your last statement. Shouldn’t proofs revolve around belief? Though they are not necessary to make belief true.

Believing without seeing is PART of faith! I believe in Christianity(Virgen birth, crucifixion, death resurrection, etc), because the Bible says to. Specifically, the Bible is most HISTORICALLY RELIABLE text in history. The manuscript record proves that. You can read numerous books about this. I can even suggest some. The “miracles of muhammad” are mentioned in hadeeth, which are not seen as reliable as the Qur’an, based on the testimony of the majority of Islamic Scholars.

 

[Sister_Amy]

There was divine intervention when the Red Sea parted. Divine intervention from God the father, not Allah. On what proof do you have that Muhammad performed miracles. Just because Michael Jordan made plays and shot unseen before by anyone doesn’t mean that he performed miracles. Why can’t you provide any proof??? I can provide all the proof I want about the Christian Bible, why can’t you provide any proof??? If everyone in this thread who isn’t Muslim can’t find your proof then where is it?? That is pretty bad when one of us in the discussion is a former Muslim. Sad I say.

Divine intervention = miracle.

There is only one God.

The Qur’an is the proof. No human could have authored it.

Want proof that no human could have authored it? There is a challenge in the Qur’an, for someone to bring even just 1 chapter like the Qur’an, if they can do it. Just one chapter. But nobody has, and nobody can. Link for details.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Eh? There are lots of Muslims who transgress the limits of Islam. Extremists and terrorists, for example.

Then your criticism of Christianity applies just as much to Islam and is therefore a logical inconsistency to use that argument to favor Islam as opposed to Christianity.

Note: I totally agree that there are too many Christians who do not live their professed faith.

Do you acknowledge that it is impossible for a human to have composed the Qur’an?

No, I do not.