Why don't Muslims become Christian?

[planten]

I personally do not say that Muhammad was visited by the devil (though I have heard that he may have thought he was, at first), because it makes no difference to me, either way. We are told that should anyone, even an angel from heaven, come preaching a gospel other than that which was given to us, we are to consider them anathema and not credible at all. Hence, no Muhammad and no Qur’an for us. It is impossible in the truest sense of the word. We cannot serve Christ our Lord and Savior and Muhammad and the Qur’an. Never.

Jesus never told you about any other gospel. It was paul who is nobody. He was an enemy of Jesus and a firend of the kafirs. Your book (bible) was not for all people for all times. Then your lords played havoc with the sacred book, adding and subtracting from it. Quran is admitting the purity of the bible and at the same time, the Quran is telling us that Christians made serious inroads (changes) in the bible. That was a sin.

I do not know, because I am not one, but perhaps they see a different relationship with God in Christianity than they see in Islam? We worship the same God (I know this makes some on both sides mad, but I really do believe it, and the Church does too), but our understandings of Him and our relationship to Him are very different. For some, Christianity seems like a more “logical” (for lack of a better word) kind of relationship to have with God than Islam.

Thanks for admitting that you worship the same God.

Christianity, it should be noted, does have as one element of this relationship of a willing, joyful slave somewhat analogous to the Muslim concept of submission, so converts from Islam need not give that up, even. They just develop a more complete, deep understanding of the different facets of God’s love and care for them upon entering Christianity. It is not so one-dimensional and harsh as Islam can appear to be sometimes. I rejoice at being a slave to the Father of all righteousness, but not ONLY that

.

That is another good point of thanks to you. Most of the christians used to joke with the Muslims about the slave/master relation. They laughed at the Muslims calling themselves slaves of God.

Where does the Qur’an support this “corrupted Bible” theory?

** When you can delve deeply into Hadith, I am sure you can find the verses of the Quran which tell that christian people made changes in the bibleNT. Otherwise some friend will guide you and give you the reference.**

This is an interesting claim, much like the “Great Apostacy” claimed by the Mormons, who similarly have no proof. So you want me to believe that prior to the canonization of the Bible the teachings of Jesus, which had been preserved somewhere else in some “original Bible” or whatever, became corrupted? I don’t see why I should, since we HAVE historical documentation for our Bible. When you get some historical documentation for your own theories, please show it to us. Until then, it will remain wishful Islamic fantasy and nothing more.

I know nothing about the mormons.

The word of the Lord shall endure forever and ever, by the way. That’s in the Bible. Is that one of the corrupted parts? If it is, then I guess God’s word cannot be trusted to endure forever. I guess God is a liar. It makes me wonder what the Qur’an is, then…if God couldn’t stop those pesky humans from messing things up with the Torah and the Bible, why is He so sure He can do better with the Qur’an?

Take it easy please. Do not blame God for what you have done yourself. Who said that " The word of the Lord shall endure forever and ever…?" Surely Jesus never said that. We see that you are leaving Quran and running to Hadith. Also you are leaving Jesus and running to other buddies. Why is that?

Oh, wait. That was blasphemy just now! Whew…it’s a good thing I don’t believe the Islamic claim, then! Only the part from the Bible that I paraphrased, that completely contradicts the supposed “corrective” necessity of the Qur’an. You see, the Bible does not depend on the Torah being wrong…

I could not understand you.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi -

I just want to clarify one thing about your nice and astute post above. It is not, and never has been the position of Muslims that it was not in Allah’s power to preserve previous scriptures. Muslims do believe that only the Qur’an has been preserved, but not because Allah couldn’t, as you suggested, preserve the Torah or Injeel.

Allah tells us He could have made everyone a believer, if He willed. But He did not will that. And He did not will to preserve previous scriptures.

That’s fine that you believe that as a Muslim, but I cannot follow that since I believe in the Bible, which says that the word of the Lord endures forever (1 Peter 1:25).

 

[Sister_Amy]

That’s fine that you believe that as a Muslim, but I cannot follow that since I believe in the Bible, which says that the word of the Lord endures forever (1 Peter 1:25).

It’s simply a matter of stating correctly the beliefs of Muslims. To say Muslims believe that Allah couldn’t preserve previous scriptures is wholly inaccurate. To use that as the basis for needing the Qur’an is also incorrect. That’s what I wanted to point out.

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus never told you about any other gospel.

I know He didn’t. Muhammad did. I was explaining why Christians cannot believe in Muhammad and the Qur’an.

It was paul who is nobody.

 

[dzheremi]

Take it easy please. Do not blame God for what you have done yourself. Who said that " The word of the Lord shall endure forever and ever…?" Surely Jesus never said that.

I have done nothing but attempt to correct the false impressions of Christianity that you have inherited from a Muslim tradition founded in them. And yes, in fact, those words ARE the words of the Christ. I quoted the specific verse in my response to Sister Amy only a few minutes ago. You can read it there. I know you will say “Well, that is Paul putting those words into Jesus’ mouth”, which I don’t agree with but I will accept to be your believe. Still, it is a matter for your own conscience how you can hold that Paul has manipulated the person of Jesus in the scriptures but Muhammad did not when his Qur’an also puts words into Jesus’ mouth (and more importantly, those words contradict the things that Jesus said in the Bible). And Muhammad did it centuries after the fact!

We see that you are leaving Quran and running to Hadith. Also you are leaving Jesus and running to other buddies. Why is that?

I don’t even own any collection of Hadith or a Qur’an, so I don’t know how you can accuse me of running to anything or leaving anything. And I am certainly never leaving Jesus! Perish the thought!

I could not understand you.

The Qur’an claims to the be the “true”, God-authored version of the religion that was corrupted by both the Jews and the Christians. Thus, its truth relies on the books of the Jews and the Christians being untrue, or else the Qur’an would not be necessary (since the books of the true and correct faith are already there). In contrasting this belief with the Bible, we see that the Bible does not have to claim that the Torah is false in order for the Bible to be true. We Christians know we worship a faithful Jew (who did not run around saying that the Torah was wrong), but we depart from the Jews in that we see Him as the Messiah, the Son of God the Most High with whom we enter into a new convenant through Jesus. The Jews obviously do not agree.

That is what I meant.

 

[dzheremi]

It’s simply a matter of stating correctly the beliefs of Muslims. To say Muslims believe that Allah couldn’t preserve previous scriptures is wholly inaccurate. To use that as the basis for needing the Qur’an is also incorrect. That’s what I wanted to point out.

I don’t believe I was stating the beliefs of Muslims to begin with (at least I didn’t mean to give that impression), but okay, point taken. I was trying to articulate why a Christian such as myself or any other finds the claims of the Qur’an in this regard to be incompatible with our religion.

And I did not say that God could not preserve the scripture, I said IF God could not…if you want to change that to “would not” so that it fits better with Islamic doctrine, fine. The problem for Christians still remains that it is in contradiction to what God has told us in the Bible about His Word enduring forever. So what God lying then? Or maybe that is one of the parts that the Christians put in after messing up the scripture? (So then God’s word is NOT eternal? Again, what then is the Qur’an?)

 

[Sister_Amy]

I don’t believe I was stating the beliefs of Muslims to begin with (at least I didn’t mean to give that impression), but okay, point taken. I was trying to articulate why a Christian such as myself or any other finds the claims of the Qur’an in this regard to be incompatible with our religion.

And I believe your related assertion (“To use that as the basis for needing the Qur’an is also incorrect”) follows from your misunderstanding of what I was trying to say. I did not say that God could not preserve the scripture, in fact quite the opposite (“the words of the Lord endure forever” is pretty far from that, I hope you’ll agree). I said that Muslims see the Qur’an and hence Islam as the restoration and perfection of what had been corrupted. Is this not the case?

Here’s the part that bothers me:

If a person says that the Muslim belief is flawed or silly because it says Allah could not preserve Scriptures before, but now can, with the Qur’an, that is an incorrect statement. That person’s objections to Islam aren’t founded on reality, in that case.

It doesn’t mean he is forced to accept Islam, but that he should more correctly articulate why he rejects it.

 

[dzheremi]

Haha. Oops. I was editing my post as you were posting that. Anyway, either versions are fine and I’ll stick with them since the point is not that there is a problem in GOD’S intention! (related to preserving vs. not preserving the books)

As to what you’ve just posted now, okay. Maybe I don’t truly understand what Islam claims about the past scriptures, but that is not a problem for me since I believe in the Bible anyway, not the Qur’an. The Qur’an could claim that the Bible is the worst book in the world and I would still believe in the Bible.

I hope you and I can agree that God is, aside from whatever else, internally consistent. So why then would He claim that His word stands forever in the Bible and then change His mind in the Qur’an? Obviously God is not “wrong”, so one of the books must be. I have made my choice as to which one is which, and so have you. I hope you’re as happy with yours as I am with mine, since I know neither of us will be changing our minds any time soon.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I hope you and I can agree that God is, aside from whatever else, internally consistent. So why then would He claim that His word stands forever in the Bible and then change His mind in the Qur’an? Obviously God is not “wrong”, so one of the books must be. I have made my choice as to which one is which, and so have you. I hope you’re as happy with yours as I am with mine, since I know neither of us will be changing our minds any time soon.

I want to first say that the statement that God’s word stands forever is not a statement of the New Testament, but one of the Old Testament. It appears in Isaiah, and is merely repeated in I Peter.

Then, you have to know what the statement means by “His word.” Muslims actually believe that God’s word remains on a Tablet which has been preserved in the Heavens (or where exactly I don’t know.) The statement “His word” is not confined, therefore, to written scriptures. So I don’t see any conflict with that particular statement in the first place with the beliefs of Islam. But insofar as actual scriptures, Muslims do believe that only the Qur’an has been preserved.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Dzheremi -

I just want to clarify one thing about your nice and astute post above. It is not, and never has been the position of Muslims that it was not in Allah’s power to preserve previous scriptures. Muslims do believe that only the Qur’an has been preserved, but not because Allah couldn’t, as you suggested, preserve the Torah or Injeel.

Allah tells us He could have made everyone a believer, if He willed. But He did not will that. And He did not will to preserve previous scriptures.

**Thanks sis Amy, you are right. Allah could preserve the previous scriptures if He had wanted to. There is another important reason for not preserving the previous scriptures. They were for some time and not forever. Moreover they were for a particular place and people, not for the whole world people.

Those books do not claim to be for every one for all times. So they had to disappear. That was must. No harm. The last testament arrived.

It was the people who played with their scripture.**

As Christians we are called to live according to God’s will. We believe that he did preserve scripture, because it IS his will. As Christians we believe he didn’t simply make certain rules for certain people and impose another set of rules for a different group of people. Also as Christians we called to be the members of his body, which is the Church. God has set such fair standard as to how to obtain salvation and join him in eternity. The books of the Bible were meant for everyone for all times.

 

[dzheremi]

I want to first say that the statement that God’s word stands forever is not a statement of the New Testament, but one of the Old Testament. It appears in Isaiah, and is merely repeated in I Peter.

Okay. I don’t see what you are getting at, but yes.

Then, you have to know what the statement means by “His word.” Muslims actually believe that God’s word remains on a Tablet which has been preserved in the Heavens (or where exactly I don’t know.)

And what would the Jewish or Christian understanding have to do with the Muslim understanding of “His word”? The Bible or the Torah are not the books of the Muslims. You can interpret it however you’d like, but it’s not likely to be taken any more seriously by members of the religions that do follow those books than a non-Muslim’s interpretation of the Qur’an would be taken by the majority of the world’s Muslims.

The statement “His word” is not confined, therefore, to written scriptures.

Written like a true Catholic! A huge plus for Apostolic Christianity is that we believe that we preserve these “extra-Biblical” (really pre-Biblical, but that’s for another thread) aspects of the faith that were handed down to us from Jesus’ time. But just as the faith is more than just the Holy Scripture, it also includes the Holy Scripture, so Christians will maintain that there IS conflict between the words recorded in the Bible and the claims of Muslims. Not that you can’t keep claiming that anyway, of course, but it is only convincing yourself. To us, there is no harmony between the two.

So I don’t see any conflict with that particular statement in the first place with the beliefs of Islam.

See above.

But insofar as actual scriptures, Muslims do believe that only the Qur’an has been preserved.

Aye, there’s the rub! Thank you. That’s what I’ve been getting at this whole time, or trying to, anyway.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It’s such a pleasure reading your posts.

 

[Booklover]

It’s such a pleasure reading your posts.

Sister Amy, for once we agree! Dzheremi’s posts are excellent.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, for once we agree! Dzheremi’s posts are excellent.

Vickie

Suppose we do.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow. Thank you, Sister Amy. I feel the same way about your posts. I learn a lot from reading them. I’m glad you’re around to teach me so much.

May Allah bless you abundantly for your earnestness and love for Him.

Edit (you guys are making me blush): You too, Booklover! Thanks for such kind words. God bless you.

 

[Booklover]

Wow. Thank you, Sister Amy. I feel the same way about your posts. I learn a lot from reading them. I’m glad you’re around to teach me so much.

May Allah bless you abundantly for your earnestness and love for Him.

Edit (you guys are making me blush): You too, Booklover! Thanks for such kind words. God bless you.

God bless you too! The charity and patience you show when dealing with Muslims is truly commendable!

Since I’m such a spitfire, most of the time when reading their posts I feel like blowing a gasket!

Vickie

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

If you want to know why people Convert to Islam perhaps you should check out this;

Muslims

and as an added bonus

Jewish Conversions

and here is an extra one to wet your appetite!!

Hindu

 

[planten]

As Christians we are called to live according to God’s will. We believe that he did preserve scripture, because it IS his will. As Christians we believe he didn’t simply make certain rules for certain people and impose another set of rules for a different group of people. Also as Christians we called to be the members of his body, which is the Church. God has set such fair standard as to how to obtain salvation and join him in eternity. The books of the Bible were meant for everyone for all times.

**tobeinatorstark, you hve made many bold statement from yourself. I feel they are not in the bibleNT I agree with you that God did not make different rules…

If the bible had claimed that God will preserve its teaching then we would have no objection. But there is no such thing in the bibleNT. Rather there is more trouble that we see now.

The christians in this forum have disowned the bibleNT from Jesus. They say Jesus did not have any book. He was not given any book by God. That bible did not belong to Jesus. So they suggest or admit that bible is not from God.

I say if Jesus was not given any book then how could his followers be given anything (i.e. a book?)?? The matter is more complicated now. Even though we see that bible is just a biography of Jesus and there is more of others in it than from Jesus, still we believed that bibleNT was from jesus, or at least through Jesus.

If the christians realise that Jesus is the main figure. he is everything. Then they drop all the rest of people, it would be good enough for all of us because we agree to all the good wise words from Jesus mentioned in Mathews and Luke etc And we all believe in Jesus to be a rightful man of God. There could be some raproachment and understanding.

What i have written above is my opinion. No disrespect is intended.**

 

[tobinatorstark]

**tobeinatorstark, you hve made many bold statement from yourself. I feel they are not in the bibleNT I agree with you that God did not make different rules…

If the bible had claimed that God will preserve its teaching then we would have no objection. But there is no such thing in the bibleNT. Rather there is more trouble that we see now.

The christians in this forum have disowned the bibleNT from Jesus. They say Jesus did not have any book. He was not given any book by God. That bible did not belong to Jesus. So they suggest or admit that bible is not from God.

I say if Jesus was not given any book then how could his followers be given anything (i.e. a book?)?? The matter is more complicated now. Even though we see that bible is just a biography of Jesus and there is more of others in it than from Jesus, still we believed that bibleNT was from jesus, or at least through Jesus.

If the christians realise that Jesus is the main figure. he is everything. Then they drop all the rest of people, it would be good enough for all of us because we agree to all the good wise words from Jesus mentioned in Mathews and Luke etc And we all believe in Jesus to be a rightful man of God. There could be some raproachment and understanding.

What i have written above is my opinion. No disrespect is intended.**

Yes it is in the NT. Here is proof

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church. Which is his his body and fulness of him who is filled all in all.
That verse proves that that Christ is the head of the Church as does 1 Timothy 3:15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God and the pillar and ground of the truth”

1 Corinthians 12:27 “Now you are the body of Christ and members of member”
Romans 12:4-5 “For as in one body we may have many members , but all members have not the same office. So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another”
1Corinthians 6:15-20, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 12:4-30, Ephesians 1:19, 23, Ephesians 3:1-7, Ephesians 4:4-16, Ephesians 4:25, Ephesian 5:22-32, Colossians 1:18, Colossians 1:21-29, Colossians 2:16-19, Colossians 3:15, Hebrews 13:3
all these prove that we are members of Christ’s body
as for God preserving his words it is in the NT as well
1 Timothy 6:3-5 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspecions, Conflicts of men corrupted in mind, and who are destitute of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. This is all from the NT of the Bible of which you said was not a part of.

 

[tobinatorstark]

---

As Christians we believe that Jesus is the 2nd persona in the Trinity. He is God. God the Son. The trinity practices 1 God 3 personas. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. He is not just a man of God, he is God. His father gave us the word, and the word was God. God sent his only begotten son save us from all sins. Jesus is the incarnation. As Catholics we are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is in the Gospels. He was the book.