Why don't Protestants learn Catholic Church history?

[Sy_Noe]

Well, I understand that Protestants don’t believe that only the Catholic Church was started by Christ. I was only saying that the proposed logic,

doesn’t make sense to me. (I’m waiting to see if another Protestant poster will chime in to say “That is/isn’t how I see it”. But to be fair, I assume that every Protestant poster doesn’t read every single Protestant post. I know I don’t read every single Catholic post – indeed I think part of my head would explode if someone told me I had to do that. )

Hi Peter, I’m having difficulty understanding why Little Sheep’s post doesn’t make sense to you. I hesitate trying to speak for Little Sheep but this was more or less my sense of the post.

If the Catholic Church was the first founded by Christ and others branched from there, then the lineage still holds and it is Christ Whom sustains Protestants as well. Say I plant a twig and it sprouts into a larger tree and then branches of the tree develop. The branches’ lineage is traced back to that original twig. And the leaves on the branches might not even be 1 exact same shape, size, or shade of color. Still all one tree though.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Hi Peter, I’m having difficulty understanding why Little Sheep’s post doesn’t make sense to you. I hesitate trying to speak for Little Sheep but this was more or less my sense of the post.

If the Catholic Church was the first founded by Christ and others branched from there, then the lineage still holds and it is Christ Whom sustains Protestants as well. Say I plant a twig and it sprouts into a larger tree and then branches of the tree develop. The branches’ lineage is traced back to that original twig. And the leaves on the branches might not even be 1 exact same shape, size, or shade of color. Still all one tree though.

I see it as a body , say a bone is fractured and broken , it is still part of the body

 

[Tommy999]

“…it is Christ Whom sustains Protestants as well…”.

Thank you for that, Sy Noe.

While I believe that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church and is still very present there, especially in the Eucharist, I also believe that the Lord is present and accounted for in many non-Catholic Christian churches today and in the hearts of the faithful who love and serve Him everywhere.

“You will know them by their fruits”,(Matthew 7:16).

 

[SyroMalankara]

I see it as a body , say a bone is fractured and broken , it is still part of the body

A part that needs to be reset and healed or amputated to prevent gangrene death.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi Peter, I’m having difficulty understanding why Little Sheep’s post doesn’t make sense to you. I hesitate trying to speak for Little Sheep but this was more or less my sense of the post.

If the Catholic Church was the first founded by Christ and others branched from there, then the lineage still holds and it is Christ Whom sustains Protestants as well. Say I plant a twig and it sprouts into a larger tree and then branches of the tree develop. The branches’ lineage is traced back to that original twig. And the leaves on the branches might not even be 1 exact same shape, size, or shade of color. Still all one tree though.

That branch only stays alive because of its attachment to the tree. It cannot severe itself and remain alive. Not that it can’t try. It just won’t be able to succeed. It will in time wither and dry.

 

[Sy_Noe]

That branch only stays alive because of its attachment to the tree. It cannot severe itself and remain alive. Not that it can’t try. It just won’t be able to succeed. It will in time wither and dry.

Well you sorta make my point I think. The branches and the tree are still together… attached in faith in the planter.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I loved this and it reminded me of Paul saying the church at Corinth was a church of God (1 Cor 1:2) although in error.

And Protestant churches as I understand it, did not start from scratch. It was more a cleansing not that they broke away. So they remain part of His body and part of the vine. Branches of the same trunk.

I realize this is not Catholic understanding however.

I struggle with this one too. You are correct in my view that the Protestant and Orthodox Churches are part of the body of Christ - the universal Church of all who are baptized believers. I think the body of Christ in this world and the next consists of all who believe/accept Jesus Christ in word and deed. If one lacks charity, for example, one is outside of Christ and his Church to a certain extent. (this fault must be remedied through forgiveness, repentance, penitence to get back in)

I believe there is a varying degree of error present in the body of Christ on earth, due to the fact that, since the Apostles, it is in the hands of humans subject to sin. Divine revelation is present in its fullness in the original Roman Catholic Church (through God’s grace man receives revelation, yet remains subject to sin, error) - but is also present in Orthodoxy and the Protestant Churches, again amidst error - escalating error I might call it.

I think of the Catholic Church as the ‘highest’ Christian Church. Once the sacrament of the Eucharist is dismissed (Real Presence), things head downhill fast. But through authentic faith one can receive grace and union with Christ anywhere in the body of Christ. The goal of the Christian is to ascend to ever higher levels of union with God. (i.e. become Catholic) (hope I don’t sound like a Hindu here)

 

[jmcrae]

I loved this and it reminded me of Paul saying the church at Corinth was a church of God (1 Cor 1:2) although in error.

And Protestant churches as I understand it, did not start from scratch. It was more a cleansing not that they broke away. So they remain part of His body and part of the vine. Branches of the same trunk.

I realize this is not Catholic understanding however.

They didn’t “branch” though.

The Carmelites and the Jesuits “branched” (they came into existence at the same time as Protestantism for similar stated reasons - to reform the corruption that was in the Church at that time).

The Carmelites and the Jesuits remain in good standing with the Church; we currently have a Jesuit as Pope.

The various Protestant movements broke away; they are not part of the Church today.

 

[JonNC]

P.S. Also, when I hear Protestants say that the Roman Catholic Church is the original church, I tend to go a little .

Seems a bit like just telling us what we want to hear, no?

P.P.S. Well, if not that, then it’s showing their own bias, inasmuch as Protestantism is a break-away from Catholicism, not from Orthodoxy.

The Augsburg confession says there is one Holy Church, and that the Church is the congregation saints where the word is preached and sacraments administered. Hence, the RCC is indeed part of the one Holy Church. So is Orthodoxy. So are we.

Jon

 

[Tommy999]

The various Protestant movements broke away; they are not part of the Church today.

Hi jmcrae,
I agree that Protestants like me are not part of the Catholic Church. However, we are part of Christianity.

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that, if I am interpreting it correctly.

817-819:

**818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 **
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Tommy999]

I struggle with this one too. You are correct in my view that the Protestant and Orthodox Churches are part of the body of Christ - the universal Church of all who are baptized believers. I think the body of Christ in this world and the next consists of all who believe/accept Jesus Christ in word and deed. If one lacks charity, for example, one is outside of Christ and his Church to a certain extent. (this fault must be remedied through forgiveness, repentance, penitence to get back in)

I believe there is a varying degree of error present in the body of Christ on earth, due to the fact that, since the Apostles, it is in the hands of humans subject to sin. Divine revelation is present in its fullness in the original Roman Catholic Church (through God’s grace man receives revelation, yet remains subject to sin, error) - but is also present in Orthodoxy and the Protestant Churches, again amidst error - escalating error I might call it.

I think of the Catholic Church as the ‘highest’ Christian Church. Once the sacrament of the Eucharist is dismissed (Real Presence), things head downhill fast. But through authentic faith one can receive grace and union with Christ anywhere in the body of Christ. The goal of the Christian is to ascend to ever higher levels of union with God. (i.e. become Catholic) (hope I don’t sound like a Hindu here)

Well put and good post. FollowChrist34.

I must admit that it becomes tiresome to me and makes me want to quit even participating in CAF when I read from those who consider non-Catholic Christians like me to be inferior and lacking in so many ways. In fact, not too long ago I left CAF for over a month because of it and almost didn’t return.

There are those who act like Protestants are the enemy that must be defeated or a bug that needs to be squashed instead of brothers and sisters in Christ.

For me, the best Catholic witnesses are those who take an invitational approach to sharing the faith, who in charity reveal how my Christian faith could be enhanced even more through Catholicism and Catholic principles. I listen with open ears to such folks who invite me to a higher level through Catholicism and help explain doctrines and things I don’t understand fully or may not even be aware of yet.

However, when I encounter holier-than-thou Catholics who act like CAF is boot camp where all my foundational beliefs are wrong and have to be removed and my faith has to be rebuilt from the ground up like a drill sergeant treats a buck private in an army boot camp, it has the opposite effect and makes me stop listening to anything else they have to say and just ignore them from then on.

Sorry,.I just wanted to get this off my chest. No offense intended to anyone in particular.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well put and good post. FollowChrist34.

I must admit that it becomes tiresome to me and makes me want to quit even participating in CAF when I read from those who consider non-Catholic Christians like me to be inferior and lacking in so many ways. In fact, not too long ago I left CAF for over a month because of it and almost didn’t return.

There are those who act like Protestants are the enemy that must be defeated or a bug that needs to be squashed instead of brothers and sisters in Christ.

For me, the best Catholic witnesses are those who take an invitational approach to sharing the faith, who in charity reveal how my Christian faith could be enhanced even more through Catholicism and Catholic principles. I listen with open ears to such folks who invite me to a higher level through Catholicism and help explain doctrines and things I don’t understand fully or may not even be aware of yet.

However, when I encounter holier-than-thou Catholics who act like CAF is boot camp where all my foundational beliefs are wrong and have to be removed and my faith has to be rebuilt from the ground up like a drill sergeant treats a buck private in an army boot camp, it has the opposite effect and makes me stop listening to anything else they have to say and just ignore them from then on.

Sorry,.I just wanted to get this off my chest. No offense intended to anyone in particular.

I’ve been pretty direct with people here, but I hope I haven’t been an impetus to drive you away. However, I hope my genuine belief that the protestant system is flawed and dangerous does not lead you to think I think of you, as a person in that way. My experience has been with people that haven’t even consider a Catholic or non-theirownstudy/cradle group/todays flavor/popculture version of much of what they think is a real study. I’m not saying you are this way but many are, I include myself for many years in that category

 

[Bill_Martin]

Any Protestant who is serious about learning about their faith would pretty much have to study Catholic history and the writings of Augustine, Aquinas, and others. I can’t see how anyone could start at the Reformation or even why anyone would want to.

 

[Sy_Noe]

They didn’t “branch” though.

The Carmelites and the Jesuits “branched” (they came into existence at the same time as Protestantism for similar stated reasons - to reform the corruption that was in the Church at that time).

The Carmelites and the Jesuits remain in good standing with the Church; we currently have a Jesuit as Pope.

The various Protestant movements broke away; they are not part of the Church today.

I’m just not clear if it’s that strong of a case to our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ or any of us, including myself, not in communion with Rome to say one part of the tree says another part of the tree is not part of the same tree. So then you are not part of the tree. I’m just not sure that is at all helpful in furthering relationships.

But in any case more importantly is something you said earlier related to this that greatly troubles me.

You said, “They were completely reinventing everything, from the ground up”.

I don’t see it that way at all. They were not reinventing the story of the birth of a Messiah in a manger and Jesus’s life in which he proclaimed love to thy neighbor and the Golden Rule, and caring for the needy and the sick, and his subsequent sacrifice on the Cross nor were they reinventing the profession of faith Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Peace and brightest blessings to you!

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m just not clear if it’s that strong of a case to our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ or any of us, including myself, not in communion with Rome to say one part of the tree says another part of the tree is not part of the same tree. So then you are not part of the tree. I’m just not sure that is at all helpful in furthering relationships.

But in any case more importantly is something you said earlier related to this that greatly troubles me.

You said, “They were completely reinventing everything, from the ground up”.

I don’t see it that way at all. They were not reinventing the story of the birth of a Messiah in a manger and Jesus’s life in which he proclaimed love to thy neighbor and the Golden Rule, and caring for the needy and the sick, and his subsequent sacrifice on the Cross nor were they reinventing the profession of faith Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Peace and brightest blessings to you!

Some have substantially reinvented, we can agree on that can’t we? It’s just the level of how much is acceptable that is in dispute?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Some have substantially reinvented, we can agree on that can’t we? It’s just the level of how much is acceptable that is in dispute?

Probably rather than reinvented, I would say discern or interpret or understand differently.

 

[Sy_Noe]

They are inside the barque of Peter. They might not like being in it, but they are inside.

The early Protestants did not do what lapsed Catholics or rebellious Catholics do. Keep that firmly in mind. The early Protestants said, We have no Pope. Not, he is wrong, no. He does not exist, they said.

They said that the man claiming to be the Pope is unauthorized and should not exist.

In so saying, they broke their branches off of the True Vine of Jesus Christ. They weren’t simply going in a different direction as the Jesuits or the Carmelites did. No. They were completely reinventing everything, from the ground up.

Your history began with King Henry VIII when he made himself Pope of the English Church.

Actually it appears to me the Episcopal Church’s view of its history differs from the history you prescribe to it.

“The beginnings of the Church of England, from which The Episcopal Church derives, date to at least the second century, when merchants and other travelers first brought Christianity to England.”

episcopalchurch.org/page/history-episcopal-church

 

[Sy_Noe]

Well put and good post. FollowChrist34.

I must admit that it becomes tiresome to me and makes me want to quit even participating in CAF when I read from those who consider non-Catholic Christians like me to be inferior and lacking in so many ways. In fact, not too long ago I left CAF for over a month because of it and almost didn’t return.

There are those who act like Protestants are the enemy that must be defeated or a bug that needs to be squashed instead of brothers and sisters in Christ.

For me, the best Catholic witnesses are those who take an invitational approach to sharing the faith, who in charity reveal how my Christian faith could be enhanced even more through Catholicism and Catholic principles. I listen with open ears to such folks who invite me to a higher level through Catholicism and help explain doctrines and things I don’t understand fully or may not even be aware of yet.

However, when I encounter holier-than-thou Catholics who act like CAF is boot camp where all my foundational beliefs are wrong and have to be removed and my faith has to be rebuilt from the ground up like a drill sergeant treats a buck private in an army boot camp, it has the opposite effect and makes me stop listening to anything else they have to say and just ignore them from then on.

Sorry,.I just wanted to get this off my chest. No offense intended to anyone in particular.

I hear ya.

Peace

 

[cheezey]

I am late to the reading here. Many do learn. Thanks for this thread

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Peter, I’m having difficulty understanding why Little Sheep’s post doesn’t make sense to you. I hesitate trying to speak for Little Sheep but this was more or less my sense of the post.

If the Catholic Church was the first founded by Christ and others branched from there, then the lineage still holds and it is Christ Whom sustains Protestants as well. Say I plant a twig and it sprouts into a larger tree and then branches of the tree develop. The branches’ lineage is traced back to that original twig. And the leaves on the branches might not even be 1 exact same shape, size, or shade of color. Still all one tree though.

Possibly I’m being a little bit picky about words. If LS had said “Christ founded ‘the Church’ and we’re part of it” then I would have just said “Well, that sounds like Protestant thinking. ”

To be honest, at this point I’m more puzzled by how my posts were (apparently) read vis a vis

Wait - are you sure? Because that’s even worse than what I’m saying. Do you really mean to say that Protestantism is nothing more than disobedience and unbelief? That it has no positive merits whatsoever?

(although I have a suspicion that was addressed to me by mistake and was actually intended for somebody else).