Why don't Protestants learn Catholic Church history?

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You must not have ObamaCare?

Ezekiel 36:26*

AnewheartI will give you, and anewspirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh theheartof stone and give you aheartof flesh.

Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give them oneheart, and put anewspirit within them; I will take the stonyheartout of their flesh and give them aheart*of flesh,

Ezekiel 18:31

Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves anewheartand anew*spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
Yes, so? What is your point? :confused:

Go back in the thread. You will find a post I made about context and the fact that every metaphor in the world does not exist in some giant metaphor world in which they are all related.

The Prophet Ezekiel and I were not working within the same metaphorical context.
 
Yes, so? What is your point? :confused:
That Wannano was not wrong.
Go back in the thread. You will find a post I made about context and the fact that every metaphor in the world does not exist in some giant metaphor world in which they are all related.
Yes, and I agree with that point
The Prophet Ezekiel and I were not working within the same metaphorical context.
Ok… but it didn’t have to be opposed to each other.
 
Hey ben,

What do you mean by “forming Tradition”? I realize you put “based on Truth, Good Soil…” after it, but men do NOT form Tradition! Tradition is what is “handed down”.

You don’t believe many of the Traditions which the Catholic Church claims are handed down from the Apostolic offices. But you believe in the Traditions written, then confirmed and kept by her. So you do well by the Scriptures.
Hi Rc,

Don’t think Writ is tradition, but it is a tradition to rely on Writ . Understanding of Writ can also become tradition. of course canon has become a tradition.

Agree tradition is handed down, but I think it is also formed. I mean the early Christians did not have Christmas trees, or used the word Trinity, or had a universal, quick, ready answer for Arianism, or even papacy. These things were formed, by men, using Writ and some less explicit tradition.

Blessings
 
👍
You must not have ObamaCare?

Ezekiel 36:26*

AnewheartI will give you, and anewspirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh theheartof stone and give you aheartof flesh.

Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give them oneheart, and put anewspirit within them; I will take the stonyheartout of their flesh and give them aheart*of flesh,

Ezekiel 18:31

Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves anewheartand anew*spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
👍🍿
 
Hi Rc,

Don’t think Writ is tradition, but it is a tradition to rely on Writ . Understanding of Writ can also become tradition. of course canon has become a tradition.

Agree tradition is handed down, but I think it is also formed. I mean the early Christians did not have Christmas trees, or used the word Trinity, or had a universal, quick, ready answer for Arianism, or even papacy. These things were formed, by men, using Writ and some less explicit tradition.

Blessings
Ok, we would say that you are mixing Sacred Tradition with customs tradition. The former being handed down from the Apostles and the latter being conceived by men and practiced through generations.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Scripture is the written Tradition from God. And, according to Paul, it is not necessarily the only form. Some Sacred Tradition was delivered only orally.
 
Hi Rc,

Don’t think Writ is tradition, but it is a tradition to rely on Writ . Understanding of Writ can also become tradition. of course canon has become a tradition.

Agree tradition is handed down, but I think it is also formed. I mean the early Christians did not have Christmas trees, or used the word Trinity, or had a universal, quick, ready answer for Arianism, or even papacy. These things were formed, by men, using Writ and some less explicit tradition.

Blessings
The early Christians did not have the Writ we have now either, and the Writ was formed by man too, so I don’t see any reason to consider it separate from tradition.
 
That Wannano was not wrong.

Yes, and I agree with that point
Ok… but it didn’t have to be opposed to each other.
They are not opposed, but still not part of the same metaphor. I wrote the metaphor how I did for a specific reason: to highlight the importance of our co-operation with God and the continuous nature of the salvific process. Conflating Righteous Ezekiel’s metaphor and mine would undermine the nuance I was trying to convey.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Scripture is the written Tradition from God. And, according to Paul, it is not necessarily the only form. Some Sacred Tradition was delivered only orally.
OK.For the most part I do not think the Oral tradition,has anything the Written does not. Most all Catholic doctrine are explained/defended from a scriptural basis. The only place where Paul alludes to to oral teaching that we may not have it explicitly explained later in scripture is in one epistle, talking of future events, and in specific who is the restainor of the anti Christ:

“Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?”

Blessings
 
They are not opposed, but still not part of the same metaphor. I wrote the metaphor how I did for a specific reason: to highlight the importance of our co-operation with God and the continuous nature of the salvific process. Conflating Righteous Ezekiel’s metaphor and mine would undermine the nuance I was trying to convey.
I like your metaphor! And I understand what you were trying to convey.

My aunt had a heart transplant, and lived for some time. But eventually the heart was rejected. I am not trying to argue with your perspective, but I feel our co-operation can be understood even with a transplant metaphor. The transplantee must be monitored, and maybe take medicine among other measures, right?

Anyway, I agree co-operation is involved in our salvation and enduring justification.
 
The early Christians did not have the Writ we have now either, and the Writ was formed by man too, so I don’t see any reason to consider it separate from tradition.
Hi z,

Well most writ was written during the apostles lives. An apostles oral tradition requires much more surmising than his written tradition. As Barnabus wrote,

" To those knowledgeable of the Lord’s ways, keep them, as many as are written."

" I too decided to write an orderly account for you… so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught". Luke 1
Blessings
 
I like your metaphor! And I understand what you were trying to convey.

My aunt had a heart transplant, and lived for some time. But eventually the heart was rejected. I am not trying to argue with your perspective, but I feel our co-operation can be understood even with a transplant metaphor. The transplantee must be monitored, and maybe take medicine among other measures, right?

Anyway, I agree co-operation is involved in our salvation and enduring justification.
Yes, I understand your version of the metaphor, and I thought about it earlier too. I was just being overly-scrupulous in trying to avoid any confusion about my point. I can be like that sometimes. 😛 Arguably, there is a nuance your version has that my version doesn’t. I just was afraid that using your version might fail to have the same immediate emphasis in the context of the discussion.

Also, I can get carried away in sort of discussion that involves asserting a point. It is a vice of mine. Forgive me. 😉
 
I like your metaphor! And I understand what you were trying to convey.

My aunt had a heart transplant, and lived for some time. But eventually the heart was rejected. I am not trying to argue with your perspective, but I feel our co-operation can be understood even with a transplant metaphor. The transplantee must be monitored, and maybe take medicine among other measures, right?

Anyway, I agree co-operation is involved in our salvation and enduring justification.
how long ago , and how long did she live with transplant ? A well known tv weather forecaster here ‘disappeared’ and and half a year later showed up with heart transplant, he may only be 40
 
how long ago , and how long did she live with transplant ? A well known tv weather forecaster here ‘disappeared’ and and half a year later showed up with heart transplant, he may only be 40
This was like 30 yrs ago. It was very early for the practice. I’m not sure how long she lived afterwards. I want to say around 2 yrs.
 
Yes, I understand your version of the metaphor, and I thought about it earlier too. I was just being overly-scrupulous in trying to avoid any confusion about my point. I can be like that sometimes. 😛 Arguably, there is a nuance your version has that my version doesn’t. I just was afraid that using your version might fail to have the same immediate emphasis in the context of the discussion.

Also, I can get carried away in sort of discussion that involves asserting a point. It is a vice of mine. Forgive me. 😉
That is kind of you… no prob! I was defending Wannano’s sincere faith.
 
Hi z,

Well most writ was written during the apostles lives. An apostles oral tradition requires much more surmising than his written tradition. As Barnabus wrote,

" To those knowledgeable of the Lord’s ways, keep them, as many as are written."

" I too decided to write an orderly account for you… so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught". Luke 1
Blessings
Well, what is written is certainly more black-and-white. I think that’s why the Church made the Scriptures a “canon” - i.e. “measuring stick”/“guideline” - to give us a compact tool to know the boundaries of the Faith. 🙂 We have canons…and then we have THE canon.

I understand your point. 🙂

I just like pointing out that Scripture is part of Tradition too, because sometimes when people juxtapose Scripture and Traditions, they somehow end up in some remote part of left field. :o (Not referring to you specifically, but people in general.)
 
Yes.

They are not the tares. The parable of the tares is about there being people inside the Church that are not living right before God’s eyes, and who will therefore not enter Paradise at the Judgement.

The new vines in my metaphor are those outside the Church. Can there be any good fruit outside the Church?

Here is a metaphor I like:

Christ is the Physician and the Church is the Hospital He established. We have the sacraments, scriptures, patristic writings, liturgy, icons, hagiography, etc. These are the medical manuals, equipment, supplies, medicines, etc. that aid the sick in recovering from the illness of sin. Now, there are people outside the Hospital too - outside the Church. They lack the fullness of the aid found in the Hospital, to various degrees. Maybe some have quacks they see. Maybe some have folk remedies. Maybe some just hope for the best and wing it. All, however, lack the fullness of aid found in the Hospital.

What are we in the Hospital to do? Of course we will invite all to the Hospital. (There is ample room!) Those institutions and traditions outside of the Hospital are not part of the legitimate institution. Does that mean the Hospital produces all healthy people? Of course not. The Hospital is designed to facilitate the healing of the sick if they follow their treatment regime. People are people though, and they are not always faithful to what they should do. When you’re ill, not following your treatment regimen can be a recipe for disaster! Sadly, not 100% of those Hospital patients will recover.

And what about those people outside the Hospital? Will they all necessarily perish? No, I cannot make such a bold claim. We cannot know for sure what will happen to those people outside of the Hospital, but surely survival is not impossible! How will they be healed? We can’t know. The Physician, though, goes where He wills. Perhaps He treats some of those people too, despite their refusal to enter His Hospital. We don’t know. All we know is that all people are supposed to be in the Hospital. He has revealed some knowledge of how things work inside His Hospital, but what happens outside it is a mystery. It is not for us to know. We invite all to the Hospital and oppose those persons and institutions that would draw people away from the Hospital. If someone refuses to come to the Hospital, the most we can do is hope for the best.

At the end of the day: the Physician has mercy on whomsoever He wishes to have mercy.
Hi z,

OK not bad. I would however challenge the underlined with a more accurate view of those outside the hospital. Vat 2 does a decent job of explaining that indeed others are healed outside the hospital. Vat even gives the how (Is it Lumen Gentia, Vat 2 ?) It most certainly is the Lord, but of course somehow still thru the hospital. Kind of like that the same Lord that built the hospital comes outside to also heal , giving credence to the hospital. Like if a famed doctor travels to heal someone, the hospital he is from is also lifted up, glorified. There is a unity to it all, according to the CC.

I liken it to this. And this deals with any christian, from any church, but who is not in fullness due to teaching or maturity,sin.

We are all on an ocean liner destination Paradise. The ship has many amenities of varying qualities. They best is available equally and freely to all. Yet some have settled for almost cargo quarters, and others in 2nd class rooms, and some in luxury suites. Some subsist on crackers and milk, others on hamburger and fries, while still others feast on steak and all sorts of fruits and vegetables and drinks.

I think that is the reality.

Blessings
 
OK.For the most part I do not think the Oral tradition,has anything the Written does not. Most all Catholic doctrine are explained/defended from a scriptural basis. The only place where Paul alludes to to oral teaching that we may not have it explicitly explained later in scripture is in one epistle, talking of future events, and in specific who is the restainor of the anti Christ:

“Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?”

Blessings
I’m glad you respect the Catholic faith to say that virtually all the Catholic doctrines have Scriptural support!

And I agree “Oral Tradition” is not alot, outside what is written.

I think it’s more about how some Traditions were actually practiced.

Here might be an example…

1 Corinthians 11

*"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another—34if any one is hungry, let him eat at home—lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come."
 
I’m glad you respect the Catholic faith to say that virtually all the Catholic doctrines have Scriptural support!
Hi rc,

Well I wish I could leave it as amiably agreeable as you put it. I think I was trying to show respect for Writ relative to tradition, in that the CC has it also. One could read your above statement and think I support all Catholic scriptural support/interpretation for her doctrine. But maybe you were just pulling my leg, as i now laughingly further ponder it You got me.
And I agree “Oral Tradition” is not alot, outside what is written.
Cool
1 Corinthians 11
*"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another—34if any one is hungry, let him eat at home—lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come."
yes ,another good one.i think there is one more,can’t find it(about baptisms)

Blessings
 
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