Why don't you think it's not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

[drbible1611]

Oh, marvelous. Please tell us more about what we believe. Come back tomorrow. I’ll tell you all about what YOU believe…

That’s fine by me but let me warn you that I was a baptised, confirmed, catechized, Mass attending and Priest confessing RC for forty years. I have read the Council of Trent, Code of Canon Law, Catechism of the Catholic Church, St Josephs Baltimore Catechism, Writings by Mr Keating, Mr Madrid, ‘Fr’ Stravinskas-I have debated Cardinal Pell of Sydney and I have witnessed to hundreds of Catholics in their homes and also in the streets. I have had the priviledge of leading a number to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. These dear brethren have thrown out their crucifixes, statues of Mary and the Saints and thank God have left the one, holy and apostolic church.

So go ahead and accuse me of not knowing what the Catholic Church teaches and what the average Catholic is truly trusting in to get to heaven.

Then you can tell me what I believe!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

That’s fine by me but let me warn you that I was a baptised, confirmed, catechized, Mass attending and Priest confessing RC for forty years. I have read the Council of Trent, Code of Canon Law, Catechism of the Catholic Church, St Josephs Baltimore Catechism, Writings by Mr Keating, Mr Madrid, ‘Fr’ Stravinskas-I have debated Cardinal Pell of Sydney and I have witnessed to hundreds of Catholics in their homes and also in the streets. I have had the priviledge of leading a number to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. These dear brethren have thrown out their crucifixes, statues of Mary and the Saints and thank God have left the one, holy and apostolic church.

So go ahead and accuse me of not knowing what the Catholic Church teaches and what the average Catholic is truly trusting in to get to heaven.

Then you can tell me what I believe!

If you truly knew and understood what the Catholic Church teaches you would never have left. I would never “thank God” that someone abandoned the Catholic faith.

WHY would someone need to throw out a crucifix or a statue?

 

[Teflon93]

That’s fine by me but let me warn you that I was a baptised, confirmed, catechized, Mass attending and Priest confessing RC for forty years. I have read the Council of Trent, Code of Canon Law, Catechism of the Catholic Church, St Josephs Baltimore Catechism, Writings by Mr Keating, Mr Madrid, ‘Fr’ Stravinskas-I have debated Cardinal Pell of Sydney and I have witnessed to hundreds of Catholics in their homes and also in the streets. I have had the priviledge of leading a number to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. These dear brethren have thrown out their crucifixes, statues of Mary and the Saints and thank God have left the one, holy and apostolic church.

So go ahead and accuse me of not knowing what the Catholic Church teaches and what the average Catholic is truly trusting in to get to heaven.

Then you can tell me what I believe!

I will certainly question your knowledge of Scripture, given your reticence in responding to the passages I’ve posted.

Surely, as a former Catholic, you’ve come across John 6?

 

[drbible1611]

Super. Tell me about these, perhaps a link. By whose authority were these canons defined?

By the true early Christians!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

By the true early Christians!

The early Christians were Catholic. There weren’t any Presbyterians, Baptists, Nazarenes (well, except for the residents of Nazareth ), Lutherans, Methodists or non-denominationals holding councils back then, just Catholics.

 

[drbible1611]

Excuse me…I hate to butt in here, but you seem to have sailed right past my post #39.

Perhaps you might address those issues. :tiphat:

What has post 39 got to do with the OT canon and whether or not the deuterocanonicals are the inspired word of God???

 

[drbible1611]

New Testament References to Deuterocanonical Books

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Sirach 28:2
Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.

+++

Luke 6:31
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.

+++

Matthew 27:41-43
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Wisdom 2:15-18
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." 21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, 22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

+++

Luke 14:13
13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Tobit 4:7
"Give alms from your possessions. Do not turn your face away from any of the poor, and God’s face will not be turned away from you.

+++

John 10:22
22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,

1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.

+++

Romans 9:20
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "

Wisdom 12:12
12 For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men?
+++

Romans 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

+++

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Wisdom 12:20
20 For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness,

+++

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

+++

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Sirach 35:9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.

+++

Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wisdom 7:26
For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

+++

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:7
Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."

My friend,

This proves nothing whatsoever.

They are NOT word for word quotations.

The Apocrypha contains historical and geographical errors which my Bible DOES NOT! The authors of Maccabees even disclaims inspiration by his own words. The God of my Bible is not the author of confusion.

You know very well just as I do why the Council of Trent canonized these books-they support the Mass, prayers to the dead, sinlessness etc.

 

[drbible1611]

Good thing both of those tell us to believe the Bible.

Biblical citation please

“Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16)

 

[Teflon93]

My friend,

This proves nothing whatsoever.

They are NOT word for word quotations.

The Apocrypha contains historical and geographical errors which my Bible DOES NOT! The authors of Maccabees even disclaims inspiration by his own words. The God of my Bible is not the author of confusion.

You know very well just as I do why the Council of Trent canonized these books-they support the Mass, prayers to the dead, sinlessness etc.

We know why the KJV excluded them—because they support the Mass, prayers to the saints, sanctification, etc.

That wasn’t the Holy Spirit dictating, but the English Crown.

 

[Teflon93]

“Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16)

Unfortunately Mark came 1,500 years too early for the King James Bible.

So how precisely was the Gospel preached in the years before 1611?

 

[drbible1611]

Jesus often quoted from the Septuagint, which contains all the same books as the Catholic OT. He even quoted verses from a few of the deuterocanonical books. If you’d rather side with the Jews today who reject Jesus as the Messiah, more power to ya. I think I’ll stick with the Bible Jesus read, unedited.

History says otherwise, actually. The Catholic Church preserved all the manuscripts, even your beloved Textus Receptus was the result of Catholic monks spending their days copying manuscripts.

Do you know what “Vulgate” means? American Heritage Dictionary:
vul·gate (vŭl’gāt’, -gĭt) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. The common speech of a people; the vernacular.

When the Scriptures were translated into Latin, the reason for that is because everyone spoke Latin, and if you were lucky enough to know how to read at the time, you could read Latin. The first English translation of the Scriptures was done by Caedmon, a Catholic monk in the 7th century.

Facts? I’m seeing a lot of unsupported, uncited propaganda, but no facts.

You are not born a fundamentalist!

Read John 1:12-13

Sad to see you became an apostate.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

My friend,

This proves nothing whatsoever.

They are NOT word for word quotations.

The Apocrypha contains historical and geographical errors which my Bible DOES NOT! The authors of Maccabees even disclaims inspiration by his own words. The God of my Bible is not the author of confusion.

Please share with us all the NT quotations of the OT from the KJV that are exactly word-for-word.

Was Paul doubting the inspiration of his writings when he wrote that he didn’t remember how many people he’d baptized? Should we remove that epistle from the Bible?

You know very well just as I do why the Council of Trent canonized these books-they support the Mass, prayers to the dead, sinlessness etc.

They were canonized long before Trent, sorry. The NT supports the Mass, prayers of the saints in Heaven who are alive, not dead; and the sinlessness - I presume you mean Mary here. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

 

[po18guy]

By the true early Christians!

You’re a Mormon then? The Great Apostasy theory? Your church is the restoration?

 

[drbible1611]

Are you suggesting that we as Christians should rely on the authority of a Jewish council held a century AFTER the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord as to what the CHRISTIAN Bible should contain? They had ALREADY rejected the Messiah…and the authority that had been vested in them by God had been stripped from them and given to the Church. Yet you expect us to look to them to tell us what is God-breathed scripture?

You’re joking, right?

anyone familiar with the history of the Catholic Church, which for 2,000 years has been preserving and protecting the Word of God, recognizes how ludicrous this is. It was is only by the authority of the Catholic Church, which collected the various books of Scripture in the fourth century, that we have a Christian Bible at all. And it is only because of the Church that the Bible survived and was taught for the many centuries before the printing press made it widely available. All Christians everywhere owe it a great debt for that.

Baloney. It is a fact usually ignored by Protestant historians that many English versions of the Scriptures existed before Wycliff, and these were authorized and perfectly legal (see Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham, chapter 11, “Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff”). Also legal would be any future authorized translations. And certainly reading these translations was not only legal but also encouraged. All this law did was to prevent any private individual from publishing his own translation of Scripture without the approval of the Church.

I haven’t seen any “facts”…only assertions.

You obviously have difficulty reading English!

So I will try again. This is what Paul the apostle to the Gentiles said:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Rom 3:1-2)

This is not an assertion this is a Biblical FACT-so if you wish to accuse God of being a liar, then go for it!

 

[drbible1611]

Who told you that?

But hey, there’s nothing wrong with Tradition and the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church…in fact, it’s found in the Bible itself.

Don’t believe me? Okay…pay attention…

2 Timothy 3:14-17 – Tradition + Scripture + Magisterium

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of (Timothy had learned the Gospel and become convinced that it was true by Paul’s ORAL preaching and teaching. This oral preaching and teaching is known to Catholics as Sacred Tradition.), because you know those from whom you learned it (Timothy had learned the gospel from Paul, an Apostle (and Bishop) of the Church, and possibly from other Church leaders whom Timothy had heard preaching and teaching. The teaching authority of the Church is known to Catholics as the Magisterium.) , 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures (Timothy would have known only the Old Testament scriptures from his infancy since the New Testament had not been written or completed at the time Paul’s letter to Timothy was composed. However, the New Testament is recognized as part of the Bible, the written Word of God. This is known to Catholics as Sacred Scripture.), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Only after commending the Tradition “handed on” from the Magisterium does Paul go on to discuss the nature of Sacred Scripture in the following verses.)16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now, let me ask you DrBible, what is the pillar and foundation of truth for the Believer?

The Bible, right?

Wrong!

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The Church – not a book – is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

So, aren’t we Catholics right in listening carefully to what the Church teaches?

Not when it contradicts, adds and subtracts from the Holy scriptures!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You are not born a fundamentalist!

Ever the literalist aren’t you? You’re right, I was born into a nominal Methodist family who couldn’t understand how the pot smoking party animal suddenly got very conservative. My initial conversion experience was at age 19 in an Independent, Fundamental, KJV Baptist church where I learned all about the Catholic Church from Chick Tracts. I was baptized by immersion in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I went to church every time the doors were opened, I was immersed in fundamentalist theology and was rabidly anti-Catholic until quite recently.

Read John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Amen!

Sad to see you became an apostate.

If by “apostate” you mean someone who has a closer, stronger, deeper relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ than ever before then I don’t know why you’d be sad.

God. Made. Me. Catholic. I was seeking the Truth and I found Him in the Catholic Church.

 

[angie08]

Why don’t you think it’s not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

Why do you think that is?
Are they ignorant? Or do they have a valuable excuse?

We, as Catholics, of course know that we have had the same bible since the beginning of, well, the bible. Luther came along and deleted books. Therefore, Protestants deny the Holy Spirit’s guidance, do they not, of the creation of the bible?

What books do you think Luther deleted? If you’re thinking James, he didn’t delete that book. In fact, he says, “I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God.” (LW 35:395)

And I propose that Catholics do not interpret the bible in the correct way because there are many false teachings in that church. So before you start insulting other faiths, maybe you should examine yours.

 

[drbible1611]

Once there was a separation from the Catholic church, the Protestants slowly lost the Eucharist. Our Lord in the Eucharist was the only thing which held the early Lutheran church together. The Eucharist faded as validly ordained priests died off. Once Christ was no longer present within the Lutheran church, the divisions began. They have not stopped, and in fact may be accelerating.

Note how the Eastern Orthodox church, the first to suffer schism, has kept the Seven Sacraments, kept the validly ordained Holy Orders, kept a valid Eucharist. And their beliefs are essentially identical to the Catholic. Reunification is progressing slowly, but is progressing.

Since Christ is The Word made Flesh, and does no longer exist Eucharistically in the Lutheran church, they have only scripture. The bible, without authoritative teaching behind it, has essentially become meaningless. Christian doctrine has ever since mutated like cancer.

Christ’s peace.

There was never a separation. God has ALWAYS had a remnant of true Bible believers since the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

A protestant is someone who was ONCE a Roman Catholic then got saved and came out of the ‘mother’ church and started to PROTEST.

I therefore stand guilty of being a Protestant.

The majority of Born Again Christians were never Catholics!

 

[po18guy]

Not when it contradicts, adds and subtracts from the Holy scriptures!

You are absolutely entitled to your 100% wrong opinion, fostered by studying 50% of Christ. You have effectively invented your own church, which very few other Christians agree with. So, what’s the point?

 

[drbible1611]

Really. Hmm.

Where does it say that in the Bible.

Hmm. Unless it does that in 1 Peter chapter 6 or some other part of the Bible, I can confidently assert that belief is not in the Bible…

So, the irony of this is inescapable.

You, of course will point your finger at the Catholics concerning all their beliefs that you perceive as unBiblical. Meanwhile at the same time, you hold a belief that is most definitely unBiblical.

I seem to recall Jesus somewhere addressing those that were removing the speck from their brothers eye but did not see the log in their own eyes. I think he used the word “hypocrites” in this passage.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

BTW, I am not even Catholic. However, I will go after stupidity, arrogance, and hypocrisy no matter where the source is…(in fact particularly if it comes from my source. I don’t like being made to look bad by association if you know what it means).

What a blessing.

Are you saved?