Why fear purgatory?

[Monica4316]

I read a rather scary quote one time, that if you aim to get to Purgatory, you might end up in hell and if you aim for Heaven, you might get to Heaven or purgatory:thumbsup:

 

[Student09]

I read a rather scary quote one time, that if you aim to get to Purgatory, you might end up in hell

I think that’s because “aiming for Purgatory” means taking the attitude of “I don’t really care if I offend God a little bit … it’s just a little, He won’t care.” Which is contrary to love of God.

 

[rwillenborg]

If I make it, you will hear the loudest “whew” in Salvation history

And if I make it, I’ll be the one turning out the lights!

 

[Monica4316]

I think that’s because “aiming for Purgatory” means taking the attitude of “I don’t really care if I offend God a little bit … it’s just a little, He won’t care.” Which is contrary to love of God.

good point, I agree

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think that’s because “aiming for Purgatory” means taking the attitude of “I don’t really care if I offend God a little bit … it’s just a little, He won’t care.” Which is contrary to love of God.

Really? Sounds more like they’re just accepting reality. I mean did you take look outside? Its a cesspool out there! However, I won’t achieve much in my life if I just sit on my butt muttering darkly from inside a chapel and condemning those in the world like I’m some kind of Neo-Pharisee. I gotta get out, see it for myself, and try to fix it. If it means getting my hands dirty, choosing between evils, and pretty much putting myself in the mud where everyone else is, so be it. Better that than cooping myself up in a bubble just because I’m scared of doing my time questing up Mt. Purgatory after I kick the bucket.

 

[Monica4316]

Really? Sounds more like they’re just accepting reality. I mean did you take look outside? Its a cesspool out there! However, I won’t achieve much in my life if I just sit on my butt muttering darkly from inside a chapel and condemning those in the world like I’m some kind of Neo-Pharisee. I gotta get out, see it for myself, and try to fix it. If it means getting my hands dirty, choosing between evils, and pretty much putting myself in the mud where everyone else is, so be it. Better that than cooping myself up in a bubble just because I’m scared of doing my time questing up Mt. Purgatory after I kick the bucket.

To be honest, I think that’s a dangerous way to live…

also there’s nothing wrong with praying in churches, - Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that the world’s peace is preserved because the religious pray for peace, not because of what politicians do also St Padre Pio said that the Sacrifice of the Mass holds the world in existence. God can choose at any moment to destroy it, that’s how much we offend Him with sin. He keeps us in existence because of His love and mercy and because He wants all to come to repentance… and it’s Mass, prayer, reparation, etc, - that make up for all the sin in the world.

We’ll never be able to fix the world by “getting our hands dirty” or choosing between evils. We’ll only fix it if we live differently… if we live as God’s children and not follow the ways of the world. Also, I think in trying to change the world, we shouldnt forget about our salvation, or to put it second place…if we live in a state of grace and don’t sin, we’ll be MUCH greater examples of Christians for the world, and we’ll be better at bringing souls to Him. How can we bring others to God, if we ourselves don’t care how close we are to Him? We can’t give something to others, which we don’t have…

I think it’s much better to strive for Heaven, than Purgatory, because it shows a greater love for God, it also gives no excuse for venial sin.

St Paul says it best:

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life—in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.”
Philippians 2:12-16

 

[PAboy57]

In reality if we make it to purgatory we will get to Heaven. What we really don’t know is how much it hurts in the process. I think the hurt is what we fear and rejoice knowing we will eventually get to Heaven.

We should do our best to bypass this step and Holy Mother Church provides us with many ways to do just that.

Aim for the free pass to Heaven is what I would like to do. If we carry our cross now we can make it. God Bless

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Could you expand on this a bit, please?

I’m actually Roman Catholic (though I lean Eastern in theology), but here is the explanation from Dr. Anthony Dragini from his website “From East to West”.

"In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning “purgatory”: 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state…

In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than “Purgatory,” we prefer to call it “the Final Theosis.” This refers to the process of deification, in which the remnants of our humans nature are transformed, and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. Rather than seeing this as a place to “sit and suffer,” the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy…

Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term “final theosis” is not intended to imply otherwise."

east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

 

[EmeraldWings]

Really? Sounds more like they’re just accepting reality. I mean did you take look outside? Its a cesspool out there! However, I won’t achieve much in my life if I just sit on my butt muttering darkly from inside a chapel and condemning those in the world like I’m some kind of Neo-Pharisee. I gotta get out, see it for myself, and try to fix it. If it means getting my hands dirty, choosing between evils, and pretty much putting myself in the mud where everyone else is, so be it. Better that than cooping myself up in a bubble just because I’m scared of doing my time questing up Mt. Purgatory after I kick the bucket.

you can live in the world without living *of *the world, no one ever said to become a saint you have to lock yourself away,
i know a handful of saintly people, and none of them close themselves off from the world, they are out in it helping others,
so really, you can live in the world without sinning, sin is not a part of life, it is a part of death.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

you can live in the world without living *of *the world, no one ever said to become a saint you have to lock yourself away,
i know a handful of saintly people, and none of them close themselves off from the world, they are out in it helping others,
so really, you can live in the world without sinning, sin is not a part of life, it is a part of death.

Actually, we are ALL called to be Saints. A Saint is one who is in Heaven.

 

[JRKH]

Really? Sounds more like they’re just accepting reality.

Who’s reality?? The worlds reality or God’s.

I mean did you take look outside? Its a cesspool out there!

Yes there is much that needs addressed in the world.

However, I won’t achieve much in my life if I just sit on my butt muttering darkly from inside a chapel and condemning those in the world like I’m some kind of Neo-Pharisee.

It appears that you are not called to the cloistered religious life, but at the same time it is not good to belittle the efforts of those who ARE called to that vocation.

I gotta get out, see it for myself, and try to fix it. If it means getting my hands dirty, choosing between evils, and pretty much putting myself in the mud where everyone else is, so be it.

When you “choose between evils”, evil still wins.
This is not what we are called to as Christians. Evil must be fought, not with the tools of evil, but with the tools of God. Yes one might need to “get in the mud” (physically) but one should never “choose evil” in any form.

Better that than cooping myself up in a bubble just because I’m scared of doing my time questing up Mt. Purgatory after I kick the bucket.

You seem to have a very low opinion of those called to the cloistered religious life. That is sad.

Overall I think your post demonstrates very well the danger of “aiming for purgatory”.
You show a low opinion of those called to a religious life (highly disciplined in most cases) of great sacrifice and holiness while at the same time stating a willingness to aid evil by “choosing between evils” rather than combating evil with good. This is a very dangerous and possibly even mortal mistake for your soul, for the “reality” you seem ready to accept is not God’s True reality but a reality of Satan’s Lie.

Peace
James

 

[TheQuestioner]

Not so hard on Lost Wanderer guys.

Lost,

Remember the pain in purgatory is greater than any pain you can feel on earth. The body has nerves. With extensive nerve damage feeling goes away. The soul has no nerves but still has ‘feeling’, so since sensory damage does not diminish the pain does not cease until the source of the pain (your own impurity) goes away.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

These are great discussions, and I thank everyone on this thread for participating in them. I haven’t commented on them because I haven’t had anything to add. I had no idea of the eastern view of purgatory, but I am pleased that not every Catholic goes around in fear of purgatory.

At this point, I “fear” neither purgatory nor hell – at least in the sense that I do not feel any sort of anxiety about it. I strive for spiritual perfection and nothing less, since that is what Christ commanded us. I don’t expect to achieve it in this lifetime, but I fully expect to make progress in that way because IMO that’s the point of living. I engage in contemplative prayer forms in addition to going to Mass, teaching the kids Catholic (putting them in Catholic schools), peruse/study/listen to the Bible a lot, and I am very observant of myself and how I interact with others for the sake of determining whether I am following the Two Great commands, and this is all very pleasing, rewarding, and peaceful for me – not scary at all. My position is that if what I’m doing isn’t enough to avoid purgatory, then either the Spirit will guide me into better paths or there isn’t much I’d do anyway – so why worry about it? God forbid I’m mislead, but I get too much “feedback” from my own spirit to consider that as a likely option – and I’m comfortable with it. Always watching, never worrying.

Jesus said, “my yoke is easy; my burden is light.” Why is it that we would want to go around with anxiety and fear? Concern and watchfulness, maybe, but fear? Jesus said, “I give you my peace, not as the world gives,” and I think an anxious, fearful life is contrary to that. He also said not to worry, as fretting cannot add any time to our lives. Was he talking just about worldly things, or are we also not to “worry” about spiritual things?

Alan

 

[TheQuestioner]

Maybe I was misleading when i said “I am terrified of going to purgatory”. I don’t spend every waking moment in fear of purgatory, but I do offer up as much penance as I can because I simply do not want to go to purgatory. I also offer penance for others because I don’t want them to go there either.

I’m only being realistic as to how I view purgatory. To me it isn’t “no big deal”. For me (aside from aspiring to Sainthood) purgatory is a big deal. It’s not a simple detour on the way to heaven. Personally I don’t even want to take a detour. I doubt very much any of us will be taking purgatory lightly if we went there.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m only being realistic as to how I view purgatory. To me it isn’t “no big deal”. For me (aside from aspiring to Sainthood) purgatory is a big deal. It’s not a simple detour on the way to heaven. Personally I don’t even want to take a detour. I doubt very much any of us will be taking purgatory lightly if we went there.

I’m with you, about not even wanting to go. That’s kind of why I’m all in favor of “purgative contemplation” and other gifts that come with the Dark Night of the Soul. Of course, those can be pretty rough and in especially in cases like mine (healing amid mental illness) it can even result in some bizarre behavior and thoughts and challenges. However, the peace and healing are deep and convincing, and I fully believe that the Lord will allow us to do a great deal of this “perfection” while we are still alive.

It’s been a while since I’ve read “Cloud of the Unknowing” (which BTW predates St. John of the Cross) but the other day I picked it up and read a few pages. There the author talks of four stages of spiritual perfection, the fourth being perfection – which can begin but not completed while still on earth. While I’m not “afraid” of purgatory on a day-by-day basis, I do believe that through purgation we can begin the process here. It may be weird and strange, but IMO wonderful.

Alan

 

[JRKH]

Alan and Questioner,
Good posts from both of you. We are called to perfection and we are called, not in some future sense, but here and now. We come nearest that perfection in a very real sense through repentance and the sacraments; through living “Christlike” lives each day; and when we fall, repenting once again, rising and rebuilding.
As we live and grow in holiness, our periods of failure diminish, but also our realization of deeper imperfections comes to the fore…And the struggle begins again as we work to overcome, not just the superficial tempations to sin, but the deeper roots of sin.
We must not fear these examinations, but forge ahead as best we can, relying ever more on God our Father through Christ our Lord and Brother to perfect us in His Holy ways.
Then, whatever is left over at the time of death, We will see most clearly and gladly submit to the cleansing and purifying fires of the Purgation.

Peace
James

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

First of all, I think some people have had an off-kilter understanding my saying “two evils” but first…

We’ll never be able to fix the world by “getting our hands dirty” or choosing between evils. We’ll only fix it if we live differently… if we live as God’s children and not follow the ways of the world. Also, I think in trying to change the world, we shouldnt forget about our salvation, or to put it second place…if we live in a state of grace and don’t sin, we’ll be MUCH greater examples of Christians for the world, and we’ll be better at bringing souls to Him. How can we bring others to God, if we ourselves don’t care how close we are to Him? We can’t give something to others, which we don’t have…

I think it’s much better to strive for Heaven, than Purgatory, because it shows a greater love for God, it also gives no excuse for venial sin.

you can live in the world without living *of *the world, no one ever said to become a saint you have to lock yourself away,
i know a handful of saintly people, and none of them close themselves off from the world, they are out in it helping others,
so really, you can live in the world without sinning, sin is not a part of life, it is a part of death.

Tell that to the politicians, the philosophers, or even the entertainers, and the business elite. Try putting yourself in their shoes and see if you can still keep your white robes of spiritual purity wholly clean without even a few specks of mud. As much as you hate to admit however, we can’t all be sweet little saints feeling very secure in our chapels only to go out on small charity events. Sure such things are quite sweet and good, they don’t exactly make/shape a civilization.

My parents are businessmen who subscribe to a typical modernist mix of New Age Philosophies and Christianity (though I doubt either are aware of that). You’d think as me being a Catholic, it’d be my duty to preach to them or express some form of disapproval. Well guess what? I can’t because so far, that’s the only thing that’s keeping them on and striving to make their business company successful. Thanks to that motivation though we got a decent income that pays our bills, gets me and my siblings a quality education, which in turn helps us get ready to live our own lives independently.

Second example, I have a little sister who’s already a freshmen in college. Being that we Christians are of course called to love our family, I try to show that love and care as much as I can. However, I also try my best to recognize her as a growing woman, that I can’t tell her what to do (too much anyways), that preaching to her will only make things worse. What’s the problem? She hangs out with all kinds of eccentric people… some of them being anti-religious idiots of the liberally indoctrinated 4chan culture. I even saw them goofing around with Tarot cards in their usual hang out and she wanted to try it as well. Now I got a bad rep in that joint as it is. Religion’s got a bad rep there too. Do you really think being a “shining Christian example” is gonna help? Trust me, I talk to these people. You’d be nothing but a street lamp and them the moths. You may stay a lamp but neither do those moths become fireflies if you know what I mean. All you’d be doing is have them swarm you with contempt. In fact, make 'em numerous enough and your light would actually be obscured.

Instead of sympathizing though, all the spiritual types just cross themselves and uphold people like me as an example of “being of the world”. Man, at least I’m trying to find some way to deal with it with the least compromise to my morals. Instead of praise though, I get pity. In case someone accuses me of that same pity towards religious folks though, I’ll have you know I don’t pity people who like where they are. Just as long as they don’t see themselves better than people like me who have life outside the chapel.

Forgive me if I sound too critical to those in a certain vocation but it’s not like I wouldn’t be saying such things if I hadn’t found such people just as guilty of being condescending too you know.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Who’s reality?? The worlds reality or God’s.

Tell that to an immature non-Christian or worse, an immature non-believer.

Yes there is much that needs addressed in the world.

There is also much needed just to keep living in it yourself to go about addressing those needs.

It appears that you are not called to the cloistered religious life, but at the same time it is not good to belittle the efforts of those who ARE called to that vocation.

Where and how am I belittling? From what I’ve had spoken to me in all my time on these forums, it sounds more like my efforts to do the right thing amidst an increasingly amoral (yet somehow vast) environment have been belittled. For instance, I’m studying to be a writer (with teacher being my fallback)Now awhile back in another thread concerning Christian fiction, one poster here actually deemed my profession to be a spiritually dangerous one to the point that he implied I’d best throw it away at all costs! The same thing he said about all other arts as well. That tells me a lot about the conclusions some spiritual folks make regarding such crucial elements to civilization.

When you “choose between evils”, evil still wins.
This is not what we are called to as Christians. Evil must be fought, not with the tools of evil, but with the tools of God. Yes one might need to “get in the mud” (physically) but one should never “choose evil” in any form.

You’d realize that if you read my examples from my own personal life, you’d find that if that were a D&D campaign, Satan would be the one sitting in the DM chair.

If you don’t get the analogy, let me put it simply: My whole environment is his homeground!

Had I been born and raised in a convent during the 1500s, then maybe I’d be a lot more different wouldn’t you think?

You seem to have a very low opinion of those called to the cloistered religious life. That is sad.

No. I actually have respect for people who find themselves capable enough for that kind of living.

I just don’t think they’re any better than I am since I’m placed under starkly different circumstances. (And please, calling me “sad” is just so not helping.)

Overall I think your post demonstrates very well the danger of “aiming for purgatory”.
You show a low opinion of those called to a religious life (highly disciplined in most cases) of great sacrifice and holiness while at the same time stating a willingness to aid evil by “choosing between evils” rather than combating evil with good. This is a very dangerous and possibly even mortal mistake for your soul, for the “reality” you seem ready to accept is not God’s True reality but a reality of Satan’s Lie.

Excuse me? You’re treating my attack against living life in a bubble for the sake of spirituality as somehow an attack on the “great sacrifice and holiness” of religious life? Frankly, I think you’re the one demonstrating a danger here man.

Besides, whatever your idea of “good” you think can combat what you presume to be the “evil” in my environment, its coming off as very, very naive. In case it still hasn’t occurred to you yet, I’m in hostile territory here and I have to be in it everyday, 24/7. If I don’t, I might as well cast away my entire future. Good-bye to ever being a contributing member of society.

Remember the pain in purgatory is greater than any pain you can feel on earth. The body has nerves. With extensive nerve damage feeling goes away. The soul has no nerves but still has ‘feeling’, so since sensory damage does not diminish the pain does not cease until the source of the pain (your own impurity) goes away.

I’d rather go through that than the pains of hell. If it’s like what it is in the Divine Comedy, I’d be more than happy to trudge up that mountain instead of going down.

Jesus said, “my yoke is easy; my burden is light.” Why is it that we would want to go around with anxiety and fear? Concern and watchfulness, maybe, but fear? Jesus said, “I give you my peace, not as the world gives,” and I think an anxious, fearful life is contrary to that. He also said not to worry, as fretting cannot add any time to our lives. Was he talking just about worldly things, or are we also not to “worry” about spiritual things?

This is sorta closer to my kind of thinking actually albeit less optimistic. I just simply see that given where I am and who I am, sainthood is impossible. I just try to do the next best thing I can do because it is more often than not the only thing I can do. Again, I say to you, put yourself in the shoes of someone like me. Confound yourself with moral dilemmas… Trust me, they ain’t all hypothetical. Some of them can wind up dangerously real. Perhaps the only pity I’d ever show would be pity on those who don’t even try to ready themselves for such an occasion (or worse, don’t believe they would happen).

 

[Monica4316]

As much as you hate to admit however, we can’t all be sweet little saints feeling very secure in our chapels only to go out on small charity events. Sure such things are quite sweet and good, they don’t exactly make/shape a civilization.

I’m not sure where you are getting this from, because we don’t actually try to live in a “bubble”. What we should do is practice holiness where we are. But if we’re in the world, we should still try to practice holiness, not live like the world. Even if you’re a politician.

Have you ever read the lives of the Saints? They spent many hours praying and they also went to visit the lepers, the poor, the prostitutes, etc… but they remained Saints… they didn’t become like sinners, by being around sinners. Think of Mother Teresa…

If you see someone doing something wrong, you don’t have to preach at them, (in fact that could be a temptation to pride and anger, unless you’re able to ‘preach’ very gently…) but pray for them… it’s not loving or truthful to excuse sinful behavior as ‘alright’. I posted a quote by CS Lewis in another thread, and I thought it might be useful here too

"the load, or weight, or burden of my neighbour’s glory should be laid daily on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken. It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption as you now meet, if at all, only in nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously - no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner - no mere tolerance or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment. Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbour is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbour he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat - the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden."
verber.com/mark/xian/weight-of-glory.pdf

Second example, I have a little sister who’s already a freshmen in college. Being that we Christians are of course called to love our family, I try to show that love and care as much as I can. However, I also try my best to recognize her as a growing woman, that I can’t tell her what to do (too much anyways), that preaching to her will only make things worse. What’s the problem? She hangs out with all kinds of eccentric people… some of them being anti-religious idiots of the liberally indoctrinated 4chan culture. I even saw them goofing around with Tarot cards in their usual hang out and she wanted to try it as well. Now I got a bad rep in that joint as it is. Religion’s got a bad rep there too. Do you really think being a “shining Christian example” is gonna help? Trust me, I talk to these people. You’d be nothing but a street lamp and them the moths. You may stay a lamp but neither do those moths become fireflies if you know what I mean. All you’d be doing is have them swarm you with contempt. In fact, make 'em numerous enough and your light would actually be obscured.

How do we know how our actions will affect others? A Saint said, acquire a peaceful spirit and thousands around you will be saved. But if people see you’re living differently and hate you for it, that’s not a good reason to start living like them; maybe in time, they will see. But I’m not saying we should show off or be arrogant or anything. Just try to follow Christ even if makes you unpopular, but in a humble way…through living it, not preaching it.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Lost Wanderer, I have spoken with you before, and I have noted that you and I have much in common. Both of us are writers. I too am hoping to become a teacher (specifically college Professor, either in some form of history or in English).

I just think that striving for Purgatory is a dangerous thing to do. I understand completely what you’re saying…it’s basically impossible to live in this society without compromising SOME morals. However, my goal is to compromise NO morals. I think it’s a bad idea to PLAN on morals being compromised.

If we aim for Heaven, hopefully we reach Purgatory. If we aim for Purgatory…well, maybe your aim will be spot on, but if you miss out by mere inches the only way to go is down…