Why fear purgatory?

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I just think that striving for Purgatory is a dangerous thing to do. I understand completely what you’re saying…it’s basically impossible to live in this society without compromising SOME morals. However, my goal is to compromise NO morals. I think it’s a bad idea to PLAN on morals being compromised.
Well there’s a difference between planning to compromise and knowing such a compromise in inevitable in a society like ours. I would never plan to do bad things, I just have the bad luck to almost always have to or face something worse.
 
LW, I’m just wondering, is it really that hopeless? It seems you’re almost saying, “no matter how much we try, we’ll HAVE to compromise some morals in our society…”. I understand what you mean, but I still think that we don’t have to… it will perhaps make us unpopular, but it’s a dangerous thing to put Christ second because of people’s opinions. One good way to overcome this is to think of Christ’s Passion and how He kept on carrying the Cross, despite all the insults and cruelty. He loved us till the end, no matter how the soldiers and Pharisees spoke of Him. I think our response to love Him despite what people think, pleases Him very much 🙂
 
Well there’s a difference between planning to compromise and knowing such a compromise in inevitable in a society like ours. I would never plan to do bad things, I just have the bad luck to almost always have to or face something worse.
I would never aim for Purgatory though. I would face these challeneges head on and would try to do as little evil as is possible in whatever hand I have been dealt.
 
I’m not sure where you are getting this from, because we don’t actually try to live in a “bubble”. What we should do is practice holiness where we are. But if we’re in the world, we should still try to practice holiness, not live like the world. Even if you’re a politician.
Have you even imagined yourself in a politician’s shoes? Here’s a hint: Try engaging in a political debate more often or at least observe more. Social issues consist of more than just abortion and gay marriage (in where the Church makes it easy for us by outlining its clear opposition to such things). In fact, in this country (particularly in my province) lumad (indigenous people) relocation and land reform are the hot topics. The debate is split between two sides but do you really think its simple enough that one represents a Catholic view and the other a secularist?

Here’s a simple example. Should I give money to this lumad beggar child even though I know they are really organized at this thing by crime rings?
Have you ever read the lives of the Saints? They spent many hours praying and they also went to visit the lepers, the poor, the prostitutes, etc… but they remained Saints… they didn’t become like sinners, by being around sinners. Think of Mother Teresa…
To be frank, I’m not sure we should be lumping all the people the saints serve into one category. In fact, when you tell me that some saints worked with prostitutes, that actually brought to mind a story I read about a supposed German saint (a monk) who worked with them. You know what everyone thought of him and how he himself expounded that image? He made himself out to be a disgraceful priest who goes after loose women (even though he preaches to them behind doors). Whether or not this is true, it certainly slaps a parallel in my face with my own life (just replace the preaching with writing).
How do we know how our actions will affect others? A Saint said, acquire a peaceful spirit and thousands around you will be saved. But if people see you’re living differently and hate you for it, that’s not a good reason to start living like them; maybe in time, they will see. But I’m not saying we should show off or be arrogant or anything. Just try to follow Christ even if makes you unpopular, but in a humble way…through living it, not preaching it.🙂
Madam, I have already said that rep is bad enough as it is over there without throwing religion into the mix. I have witnessed enough about their opinion about religion to say that whilst they maybe wholly ignorant (seeing as they are 4chan folks), I’ll know I’ll only be lighting up more than just a few sparks if I do something that just even vaguely reminds them of that which they hate. Even certain political opinions will already earn some enmity from at least one moron I know there, how much more religious?

I have also stated that talk to these people. They’re also quite the bunch of green jokers and engage in green topics. Yet as much as my sister is as dense and uninterested as a brick wall about those subjects (thank God for that actually) I end up having to subtly fend for myself by giving a distinctly secular flavored response. This goes not just for my sister’s crowd but for the people I surround myself with in my own course and in my own batch.

Simply put, I can’t come off as religious. Period.
 
I would never aim for Purgatory though. I would face these challeneges head on and would try to do as little evil as is possible in whatever hand I have been dealt.
Exactly! But what can you do? Society’s a fickle maze of traps yet there must at least be some of us who must make our way through it.
 
Exactly! But what can you do? Society’s a fickle maze of traps yet there must at least be some of us who must make our way through it.
I don’t you think you’ve actually said anything wrong here. If anything the only problem is that you perhaps explained yourself poorly.

In any case, if that’s what you’re trying to say, then I agree. 👍
 
LW, I’m just wondering, is it really that hopeless? It seems you’re almost saying, “no matter how much we try, we’ll HAVE to compromise some morals in our society…”. I understand what you mean, but I still think that we don’t have to… it will perhaps make us unpopular, but it’s a dangerous thing to put Christ second because of people’s opinions. One good way to overcome this is to think of Christ’s Passion and how He kept on carrying the Cross, despite all the insults and cruelty. He loved us till the end, no matter how the soldiers and Pharisees spoke of Him. I think our response to love Him despite what people think, pleases Him very much 🙂
  1. I am not Christ, I do not have a perfectly sinless reputation. Even my own personality is incompatible with the stereotypical holy man. If I present any dissenting opinion that comes off as religious, I’ll only be seen as hypocrite.
  2. Yes, it’s that hopeless. Who do you surround yourself with nowadays? If your circle of cliques are part of your religious comfort zones, then I suggest you might wanna step out of it and observe other types of people if you really want to grasp the difficulty of people in my situation.
 
Have you even imagined yourself in a politician’s shoes? Here’s a hint: Try engaging in a political debate more often or at least observe more. Social issues consist of more than just abortion and gay marriage (in where the Church makes it easy for us by outlining its clear opposition to such things). In fact, in this country (particularly in my province) lumad (indigenous people) relocation and land reform are the hot topics. The debate is split between two sides but do you really think its simple enough that one represents a Catholic view and the other a secularist?
Since this is not a moral issue, I don’t see how this sort of debate would make a person compromise their Catholic values… if we’re speaking of abortion, or gay marriage, that is another issue.
Here’s a simple example. Should I give money to this lumad beggar child even though I know they are really organized at this thing by crime rings?
Do you mean as a politician, or as a person on the street who saw a beggar child asking for some change?
To be frank, I’m not sure we should be lumping all the people the saints serve into one category. In fact, when you tell me that some saints worked with prostitutes, that actually brought to mind a story I read about a supposed German saint (a monk) who worked with them. You know what everyone thought of him and how he himself expounded that image? He made himself out to be a disgraceful priest who goes after loose women (even though he preaches to them behind doors). Whether or not this is true, it certainly slaps a parallel in my face with my own life (just replace the preaching with writing).
I’m sure he didn’t compromise his standards in any way… (not saying you do!). But my point is that the Saints were able to work with people like that and not commit sin. If they were talking to prostitutes, it was to share the Gospel with them.
Madam, I have already said that rep is bad enough as it is over there without throwing religion into the mix. I have witnessed enough about their opinion about religion to say that whilst they maybe wholly ignorant (seeing as they are 4chan folks), I’ll know I’ll only be lighting up more than just a few sparks if I do something that just even vaguely reminds them of that which they hate. Even certain political opinions will already earn some enmity from at least one moron I know there, how much more religious?
I’m sorry I just don’t understand, why be afraid of this? I know people who absolutely hate religion, but I dont think it’s right to pretend I’m not a Catholic when I’m around them… for example, I would still say grace before meals. (I’m not talking about preaching to them, but simply being who I am).
I have also stated that talk to these people. They’re also quite the bunch of green jokers and engage in green topics. Yet as much as my sister is as dense and uninterested as a brick wall about those subjects (thank God for that actually) I end up having to subtly fend for myself by giving a distinctly secular flavored response. This goes not just for my sister’s crowd but for the people I surround myself with in my own course and in my own batch.
Simply put, I can’t come off as religious. Period.
If you gave a secular argument because it might convince the person better, that’s one thing… for example, sometimes when talking to atheists about abortion, Catholics use scientific arguments rather than religious ones. That’s fine… as St Paul said, we should talk to people in ways they could understand. But if by ‘secular’ you mean an argument that would go against Catholic teaching, that we shouldn’t do, and it only confuses people more regarding Catholicism.
  1. I am not Christ, I do not have a perfectly sinless reputation. Even my own personality is incompatible with the stereotypical holy man. If I present any dissenting opinion that comes off as religious, I’ll only be seen as hypocrite.
I guess that is the risk we all take, because no one is like Christ. I don’t have a sinless reputation either… and I’d say that sometimes I do seem like a hypocrite when I talk about religion. That is very unfortunate and I hope with time, I’ll improve. But if someone asks your opinion on something, and it’s a moral or religious issue, it’s best to just say what you believe, imo… I’ve had some really good discussions come out of that, even with people who hate religion.
  1. Yes, it’s that hopeless. Who do you surround yourself with nowadays? If your circle of cliques are part of your religious comfort zones, then I suggest you might wanna step out of it and observe other types of people if you really want to grasp the difficulty of people in my situation.
I’m not sure why you’re making this assumption about me (if you are). I have friends who are atheists and some even hate religion and make fun of it. I used to be an agnostic myself. Yes, I think it’s possible to hang out with such people and not compromise your values. Just don’t go with the flow 🙂 for example, when I’m with my non Christian friends, and they all get drunk; I dont drink.

God bless
 
Since this is not a moral issue, I don’t see how this sort of debate would make a person compromise their Catholic values… if we’re speaking of abortion, or gay marriage, that is another issue.
Actually, you’d be wrong there. Everything tied to ethics is a moral issue. That’s a basic they taught me in Christian Morality 101.
Do you mean as a politician, or as a person on the street who saw a beggar child asking for some change?
Politics is tied to them for local politicians here have reason to believe lumad beggars are being used by crime rings to extort money.
I’m sure he didn’t compromise his standards in any way… (not saying you do!). But my point is that the Saints were able to work with people like that and not commit sin. If they were talking to prostitutes, it was to share the Gospel with them.
Ah but I wasn’t exactly painting the whole picture yet. I’ve only said the parallel was with how people perceived me. Actually talking to them is a different sort.

Prostitutes are more open since its obvious they don’t think highly of their profession.
Agnostics and leftists on the other hand…
I’m sorry I just don’t understand, why be afraid of this? I know people who absolutely hate religion, but I dont think it’s right to pretend I’m not a Catholic when I’m around them… for example, I would still say grace before meals. (I’m not talking about preaching to them, but simply being who I am).
Trust me, where I hang out, you’ll be getting a lot of stares if you had a reputation for hanging out there (even if its not exactly my reputation). The most conservative people I know over there in fact, keep a lot to themselves.
If you gave a secular argument because it might convince the person better, that’s one thing… for example, sometimes when talking to atheists about abortion, Catholics use scientific arguments rather than religious ones.
We don’t talk about abortion so I’m not sure that’s a good example. Like I said, this a 4chan culture crowd, they’re not exactly serious and even if they try to bring up serious topics its always just an excuse to spew out a ranting blather of ignorance.
That’s fine… as St Paul said, we should talk to people in ways they could understand. But if by ‘secular’ you mean an argument that would go against Catholic teaching, that we shouldn’t do, and it only confuses people more regarding Catholicism.
Not against Catholic teaching but definitely reduced down to the point that it only looks like a conservative stand point with no religious/spiritual connotations. What annoys me is that’s the reasons why certain spiritual types find me “sad”.
I guess that is the risk we all take, because no one is like Christ. I don’t have a sinless reputation either… and I’d say that sometimes I do seem like a hypocrite when I talk about religion. That is very unfortunate and I hope with time, I’ll improve. But if someone asks your opinion on something, and it’s a moral or religious issue, it’s best to just say what you believe, imo… I’ve had some really good discussions come out of that, even with people who hate religion.
The problem is when you’re talking to not just mere people who hate religion, you’re talking to complete idiots who hate religion (and I know about two or three over there already). Forget logic and truth, all they care about is attitude and if you don’t show yourself up you won’t break anything into their heads.
I’m not sure why you’re making this assumption about me (if you are). I have friends who are atheists and some even hate religion and make fun of it. I used to be an agnostic myself. Yes, I think it’s possible to hang out with such people and not compromise your values. Just don’t go with the flow 🙂 for example, when I’m with my non Christian friends, and they all get drunk; I dont drink.
Ah yes but that is because you already initiated their impression of you. They know you are religious and for them to put up with you is truly a sign of their friendship.

The people I mention? None of them actually see me as a BFF. They just see me as the annoying big brother of one of their actual friends. I did say I had a bad rep already without throwing a religious air into the mix.
 
First of all, I think some people have had an off-kilter understanding my saying “two evils” but first…

Tell that to the politicians, the philosophers, or even the entertainers, and the business elite. Try putting yourself in their shoes and see if you can still keep your white robes of spiritual purity wholly clean without even a few specks of mud. As much as you hate to admit however, we can’t all be sweet little saints feeling very secure in our chapels only to go out on small charity events. Sure such things are quite sweet and good, they don’t exactly make/shape a civilization.

My parents are businessmen who subscribe to a typical modernist mix of New Age Philosophies and Christianity (though I doubt either are aware of that). You’d think as me being a Catholic, it’d be my duty to preach to them or express some form of disapproval. Well guess what? I can’t because so far, that’s the only thing that’s keeping them on and striving to make their business company successful. Thanks to that motivation though we got a decent income that pays our bills, gets me and my siblings a quality education, which in turn helps us get ready to live our own lives independently.

Second example, I have a little sister who’s already a freshmen in college. Being that we Christians are of course called to love our family, I try to show that love and care as much as I can. However, I also try my best to recognize her as a growing woman, that I can’t tell her what to do (too much anyways), that preaching to her will only make things worse. What’s the problem? She hangs out with all kinds of eccentric people… some of them being anti-religious idiots of the liberally indoctrinated 4chan culture. I even saw them goofing around with Tarot cards in their usual hang out and she wanted to try it as well. Now I got a bad rep in that joint as it is. Religion’s got a bad rep there too. Do you really think being a “shining Christian example” is gonna help? Trust me, I talk to these people. You’d be nothing but a street lamp and them the moths. You may stay a lamp but neither do those moths become fireflies if you know what I mean. All you’d be doing is have them swarm you with contempt. In fact, make 'em numerous enough and your light would actually be obscured.

Instead of sympathizing though, all the spiritual types just cross themselves and uphold people like me as an example of “being of the world”. Man, at least I’m trying to find some way to deal with it with the least compromise to my morals. Instead of praise though, I get pity. In case someone accuses me of that same pity towards religious folks though, I’ll have you know I don’t pity people who like where they are. Just as long as they don’t see themselves better than people like me who have life outside the chapel.

Forgive me if I sound too critical to those in a certain vocation but it’s not like I wouldn’t be saying such things if I hadn’t found such people just as guilty of being condescending too you know.
i’m not sure if you took what i said how i meant it, but what i was getting at was, you don’t have to be sheltered to be a good person, it’s just a matter of how you react or receive any given situation,
being a good catholic also does not consist of just preaching, i forget which saint said it…might have been saint Vincent Ferrer(correct me if i’m wrong) “Preach often, and when necessary, use words”, basically, we do the most good by our example, not by our words, so yes, even without preaching to your loved ones, you can still help them, simply by practicing your virtues,

i by no means consider myself a saintly person, i still have so many things to overcome and change in myself, but i also have overcome so much, and so i know from all of that, which was not easy to get past, that i can definitely overcome, by the grace of God, the rest of my sins as well, and although we grow spiritually the most by daily prayers and contemplation, i also find that i overcome my sins alot faster when i have something to test me,

i’m really sorry if i’ve ever talked down to you, but i’m honestly not trying to get personal with anyone, i’m just here to help people understand the faith and to love God and know how much He loves them, and although i talk to people irl as well, i actually like it better here because i’m better at writing than i am at speaking d:

but there is something more important than teaching the faith or helping people or even being a “shinning” example,
and that is just spending time with God, we have to remember why we are here and where we are going when we are done, God is the most important one in our lives, and He is the one we will be spending the rest of our lives with, so really, those who spend alot of time in chapels, they are not just praying rosaries and chaplets, they are meditating and contemplating and spending quality time with God, getting to know and love Him more and more, and when they leave that chapel, they come out alittle more perfect each time, because they fill themselves with God, who is perfection.
that is how we become perfect, by emptying our hearts of useless things and filling it with God, and when we go out into the world filled with God, we spread Him around to everyone around us, even if we can’t see it, God can, and that’s really all that matters.

anyways, if i offended you by what i said i’m sorry, sometimes i don’t pick the most choice things to say 😑 i know you’re a good person, i just really don’t know you personally, but i’m sure we’d be good friends if i did.(although i consider you a friend anyways d: )

alright well i guess that’s all, take care.
 
LW,

Interesting coincidence. I’d never heard of 4chan until one of my college daughters told me about them just two days ago.

I know nothing about them except what she told me, and now the references you gave. That is one group I would certainly NOT want to take exception to something I say or do. They have powers in this world to take anything and turn the Internet against it.

In case anyone doubts their power, she showed me one example. Oprah accused them (possibly accurately) of voting many times for a particular handicapped comedian “Zach Anner” in an Internet survey, and removed some votes from him.

To see what happened, go to Google and type in “Oprah hat” and see what comes up. If you don’t get suggestions, try “Oprah hates x” where x could be “handicapped,” “handicap,” “disabled,” “cripples,” etc. These people obviously know their way around search engines.

Alan
 
They say that some of us go through purgatory on earth. The last 8 months have been pure torment for me and if this is just a taste of what purgatory is like then it is pain beyond comprehension. I have been praying every day for my dear departed best friend so that his stay in purgatory is as short and painless as possible. Dont think that purgatory is a walk in the park.
 
They say that some of us go through purgatory on earth. The last 8 months have been pure torment for me and if this is just a taste of what purgatory is like then it is pain beyond comprehension. I have been praying every day for my dear departed best friend so that his stay in purgatory is as short and painless as possible. Dont think that purgatory is a walk in the park.
I’m sorry to hear about your best friend and your situation. You and your friend are in my prayers.

I’m inclined to agree that we can go through purgatory – at least some of it – on earth. I’m not sure that all suffering is purgative, though, in the sense of purifying us for perfection (and hopefully reduce our time in actual purgatory). I’d like to think that all suffering could be offered for the purpose, though, and have meaning at least in that way.

Alan
 
I wonder if purgatory is altogether avoidable? If so, under what circumstances?
 
I always heard that the cleansing we experience in Purgatory is painful and that is why we pray to lessen everyone’s time in Purgatory.
 
I wonder if purgatory is altogether avoidable? If so, under what circumstances?
The following is from Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna, A Treatise of Discretion, Section 27:
"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.

**"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body. **

"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.

So, according to this private revelation, the conditions to avoid purgatory are, to arrive at the point of death having, "lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb.
Notice how nicely this fits with St Paul’s exhortation about Love being the greatest of the virtues “Faith, Hope, and Love”

Peace
James.
 
I’m sorry to hear about your best friend and your situation. You and your friend are in my prayers.

I’m inclined to agree that we can go through purgatory – at least some of it – on earth. I’m not sure that all suffering is purgative, though, in the sense of purifying us for perfection (and hopefully reduce our time in actual purgatory). I’d like to think that all suffering could be offered for the purpose, though, and have meaning at least in that way.

Alan
Thank you so much Alan for your prayers, we both really need them. I just keep remembering that with scrupulosity that thoughts and feelings can deceive us. I will also put you on my rosary prayer list salso Alan:)
Just tell me what you would like me to pray for .🙂
 
I would never aim for Purgatory though. I would face these challeneges head on and would try to do as little evil as is possible in whatever hand I have been dealt.
Don’t you mean you would try to do as much good as possible?

Lost, it’s not about trying to do as little evil as possible, but trying to do as much good as possible. Even if you have to compromise, in the gray areas if you try to make a conscious effort to try to do the greatest good as possible. But, never sin. Sin is an offense to God, whether or not you meant well while doing it.

I have friends who are more secular or atheistic than I would like them to be. I used to think that when I was with them, I was somewhat smarter or more enlightened than them because I knew more about religion and God. Then, when I was with my religious friends, I used to think I was more open, street smart and accepting than them because I knew more about the secular world.

I realize now that this was the wrong attitude to have. It stinks of pride and vanity. We have to live our religion and center our lives around it. Everything we do should be affected by God. This means admonishing secularists or atheists or new agey types when it is charitable to do so, and correcting those who are religions when we feel they need more understanding, not thing we are more enlightened or more open than either.
 
I wonder if purgatory is altogether avoidable? If so, under what circumstances?
St. John of the Cross says that those who go through the dark night of the soul do not go through Purgatory at all, or only for a short time.
 
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