Why fear purgatory?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Lost, it’s not about trying to do as little evil as possible, but trying to do as much good as possible. Even if you have to compromise, in the gray areas if you try to make a conscious effort to try to do the greatest good as possible. But, never sin. Sin is an offense to God, whether or not you meant well while doing it.

Let me try an analogy here. Say you had some sort of battery and that battery has a limit to how much power it can hold. You charge it but no matter how high or how long you charge it, it can only contain that much power.

However, there are some batteries through no fault of their own (at least directly) have such a low limit that no matter how long you charge them, they’ll only have enough to keep a lightbulb blinking. Meanwhile the excess energy is wasted and goes bad.

It’s kinda the same that even if you try to do as much good you can in your life, some people just find themselves capable of only a small amount of good yet have no choice but to leave everything else to waste.

I have friends who are more secular or atheistic than I would like them to be. I used to think that when I was with them, I was somewhat smarter or more enlightened than them because I knew more about religion and God. Then, when I was with my religious friends, I used to think I was more open, street smart and accepting than them because I knew more about the secular world.

I realize now that this was the wrong attitude to have. It stinks of pride and vanity.

On the contrary, it is only vanity when the superiority you have is false and (worse) it is expressed. Just because you are humble about the things you don’t know about doesn’t mean you should put yourself down regarding things you do know about. This goes especially for encounters with people who act like they know but they don’t and that in fact you know better. I myself do take pride in it (rare that is for someone like me) because I do know some things my sister’s friends have no clue about regarding religion. I have the proof to back it up and thus, I have every reason to believe they are wrong. As a matter of fact, I have more grim satisfaction hearing their moronic rants against belief and laughing in my head knowing that as long as their cups are full, they’ll never know the truth.

That doesn’t of course mean I’m not open-minded. However, it is only in areas where I do not have proof and to boast that I know something without proof is contrary to reason.

We have to live our religion and center our lives around it. Everything we do should be affected by God. This means admonishing secularists or atheists or new agey types when it is charitable to do so, and correcting those who are religions when we feel they need more understanding, not thing we are more enlightened or more open than either.

And yet when it is almost never charitable to do so, what do you do? Contrary to what you would assume, it would not be charitable to disapprove of my parents beliefs for they would have nothing else to drive them to be successful businessmen. Neither it would be charitable to tell my sister to get a new crowd for it is not my place and I cannot control her.

Like I said, the only good you could ever do is nothing and go along with their flow, trying your hardest not to drown.

 

[Student09]

Questioner, you reminded me of this passage from C.S. Lewis’ “Screwtape Letters”. This is a devil writing to another, younger devil about how to tempt Christians - “the Enemy” is God.

“There is a subtler and more entertaining method. He (the man being tempted) can be made to take a positive pleasure in the perception that the two sides of his life are inconsistent. This is done by exploiting his vanity. He can be taught to enjoy kneeling beside the grocer on Sunday just because he remembers that the grocer could not possibly understand the urbane and mocking world which he inhabited on Saturday evening; and contrariwise, to enjoy the bawdy and blasphemy over the coffee with these admirable friends all the more because he is aware of a ‘deeper,’ ‘spiritual’ world within him which they cannot understand.”

From the same book, this might also be appropriate to the discussion:

“You will say that these are very small sins; and doubtless, like all young tempters, you are anxious to be able to report spectacular wickedness. But do remember, the only thing that matters is the extent to which you separate the man from the Enemy. It does not matter how small the sins are provided that their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the Light and out into the Nothing. Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick. Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.”

 

[Student09]

On the contrary, it is only vanity when the superiority you have is false and (worse) it is expressed. Just because you are humble about the things you don’t know about doesn’t mean you should put yourself down regarding things you do know about. This goes especially for encounters with people who act like they know but they don’t and that in fact you know better. I myself do take pride in it (rare that is for someone like me) because I do know some things my sister’s friends have no clue about regarding religion. I

And where did you get this knowledge? Where did you get the grace to see the things you see? From God. You have nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have not received from Him. And because He has given you the grace, He will also demand more from you than He will from them.

The only thing you can claim as your own is your sin and the place that you deserve in Hell if Christ had not died for you.

As a matter of fact, I have more grim satisfaction hearing their moronic rants against belief and laughing in my head knowing that as long as their cups are full, they’ll never know the truth.

It would be better if you humbly prayed for them to receive grace. One day, they may be converted and become saints and you may find yourself looking up at them as the rich man looked up at Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, regretting that laughter with your whole heart. Because, like the rich man, you kept the riches of faith that you had received from God - you kept them for your own pleasure and self-satisfaction, as if they belonged to you, instead of sharing them with those who were spiritually poor.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And where did you get this knowledge? Where did you get the grace to see the things you see? From God. You have nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have not received from Him. And because He has given you the grace, He will also demand more from you than He will from them.

And where did I say that I don’t acknowledge the source? The fact is I do. Heck I do it in a tone and manner similar to Jim Carrey in Bruce Almighty.

“Thank you for the knowledge and good luck getting people to want it.”

I’m not selfish you know. If people wanna hear it with an open mind and a deflated ego then that’s their right and I grant it to them. The problem? They don’t.

It would be better if you humbly prayed for them to receive grace. One day, they may be converted and become saints and you may find yourself looking up at them as the rich man looked up at Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, regretting that laughter with your whole heart. Because, like the rich man, you kept the riches of faith that you had received from God - you kept them for your own pleasure and self-satisfaction, as if they belonged to you, instead of sharing them with those who were spiritually poor.

Sorry, but this is a both a hilarious and, at the same time, a sadly naive comparison. You actually think every person is a pitiful Lazarus begging to be converted? To hear the truth? No offense but I wonder how many of them are in fact swine for you to waste your pearls?

You think I like being alone in my corner, mentally rolling my eyes when some idiot comes in my sister’s hang out and starts vomiting his anti-Christian blather? You think I like sitting there, only able to hope and pull a few-word sermons to keep her from getting influenced (unlike my unfortunate younger brother already has been)? You think I wouldn’t want to find at least one respectable kindred spirit over there, who shares my views, and enjoys laughing with me at such idiots?

Think. Again.

It’s one thing to give someone something they’re willing to hear and another shove it down their throats. Ever wondered how street preaching is a bona fide fail these days?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

James and student,

Based on my own dark night/psychosis experiences, I have undergone an incredible “purging” and thus one of the motivations for my asking the question. It’s like everything I’ve ever learned about right and wrong, and about how to treat each other, has come into question. Stuff I don’t know where it came from surfaced at inconvenient times and challenged me with images and thoughts that at one point resulted in my behavior sufficiently bizarre to get me locked up against my will – and yet that was nothing compared to some of the things that went on during Mass. Yes, it’s been an amazing time, but I have a great sense of peace that has come over me. The illness is all but gone, though I still take medications for several reasons – partly strategic. People who used to annoy me no end now seem precious to me, and at worse are amusing. If this is purgative contemplation, then I find it a bit scary at times, but the most uplifting transformation I’ve ever experienced. I could have suffered, but I had competent spiritual direction and that helped me because I believed what I was going through was for a reason.

Sometimes I wonder if suffering comes from fighting it. We are led, kicking and screaming at times, into a transformation that seems to come from nowhere and that exposes some of the muck that had thus far gone buried deeply inside. It isn’t always pretty, but it’s refreshing. Looking back at it, some would say I have suffered, but I am grateful. I am not pleased with the way the world handled me in some key situations, and in fact I’m still learning to forgive certain people for their role in what happened – so clearly I’m not “there” yet, wherever “there” is.

That all said, if this is something that I can do to avoid unrequested suffering in purgatory, then I recommend it to all my loved ones.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you so much Alan for your prayers, we both really need them. I just keep remembering that with scrupulosity that thoughts and feelings can deceive us. I will also put you on my rosary prayer list salso Alan
Just tell me what you would like me to pray for .

That is very kind. For myself, I’d like prayers that I open my eyes and see, ever increasing, the beauty of the Lord and His creation. I wish to experience true unity with God, in the way that the CCC describes unity through contemplative prayer forms.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lost, Questioner, Student, and others,

Thank you for the participation in this thread. I’m a slow reader and sometimes get confused when there are several voices involved, so please accept my apologies that I have not thus far interjected my own opinions in your discussions. IMO anything that helps us help each other to expose the truth about ourselves has the potential to assist us in self-mortification and becoming truly humble… not “pathetic” but realistic about our own value. If you have disagreements and choose to explore them together, I find it a good use of this thread. Anything that might help purify us and ameliorate the situation with purgatory is fair game.

Alan

 

[Student09]

And where did I say that I don’t acknowledge the source?

My point is you have no reason to be proud of it or feel superior to others because it is a gratuitous gift from God that you have done nothing to earn. And God could take it away whenever he chooses. It does not belong to you, it is yours on loan.

Sorry, but this is a both a hilarious and, at the same time, a sadly naive comparison. You actually think every person is a pitiful Lazarus begging to be converted? To hear the truth? No offense but I wonder how many of them are in fact swine for you to waste your pearls?

Well, you may think I’m naive, but I’m a convert, and my family and friends are mostly atheists. When speaking to them doesn’t work, there is always prayer and penance. Whether they want to be converted or not, you should be praying for their conversion so that they will not have to spend an eternity suffering, separated from God.

Also, you don’t really know what may be going on in their hearts. Before my conversion, I used to say very anti-Christian things. You are judging them on their speech and behavior, but God alone sees their hearts. While I don’t know what is in your heart, either, your speech appears to be full of hatred and anger towards them. Be careful. “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (1 Jn. 3:15)

I don’t know what is pitiful about being open to the grace of God. You have some very strange ideas.

 

[Student09]

Lost, Questioner, Student, and others,

Thank you for the participation in this thread. I’m a slow reader and sometimes get confused when there are several voices involved, so please accept my apologies that I have not thus far interjected my own opinions in your discussions. IMO anything that helps us help each other to expose the truth about ourselves has the potential to assist us in self-mortification and becoming truly humble… not “pathetic” but realistic about our own value. If you have disagreements and choose to explore them together, I find it a good use of this thread. Anything that might help purify us and ameliorate the situation with purgatory is fair game.

Alan

Yes, well, I won’t post anymore, since we have gotten pretty off-topic. ) But thanks for being patient with us. God bless.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I’m sorry to hear about your best friend and your situation. You and your friend are in my prayers.

I’m inclined to agree that we can go through purgatory – at least some of it – on earth. I’m not sure that all suffering is purgative, though, in the sense of purifying us for perfection (and hopefully reduce our time in actual purgatory). I’d like to think that all suffering could be offered for the purpose, though, and have meaning at least in that way.

Alan

If we offer up our suffering on earth as penance for our sins and the sins of others we can reduce our time and their time in purgatory. This is actually way better because the pain we experience on earth is nothing compared to that we will suffer in purgatory (pain can go away on earth, or our bodies can adapt to it. There is no adapting to the pain in purgatory).

 

[TheQuestioner]

I wonder if purgatory is altogether avoidable? If so, under what circumstances?

Penance, sacrifice, indulgences, prayer, Sacraments. Pretty much nuking yourself with blessings.

 

[TheQuestioner]

They say that some of us go through purgatory on earth. The last 8 months have been pure torment for me and if this is just a taste of what purgatory is like then it is pain beyond comprehension. I have been praying every day for my dear departed best friend so that his stay in purgatory is as short and painless as possible. Dont think that purgatory is a walk in the park.

I believe there is an indulgence for the dead on all souls day (or all saints day, can’t remember which) where if you fulfill the regular requirements for an indulgence and visit the graveyard you will acquire an indulgence (not sure if it is partial or plenary) for all the souls in the graveyard. If you are too sick to make it you might want to ask someone to go for you.

here is a link:

stpeters-troy.tripod.com/id112.html

and check #67 here catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgw.php

I’ll pray for you and your friend.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Let me try an analogy here. Say you had some sort of battery and that battery has a limit to how much power it can hold. You charge it but no matter how high or how long you charge it, it can only contain that much power.

However, there are some batteries through no fault of their own (at least directly) have such a low limit that no matter how long you charge them, they’ll only have enough to keep a lightbulb blinking. Meanwhile the excess energy is wasted and goes bad.

It’s kinda the same that even if you try to do as much good you can in your life, some people just find themselves capable of only a small amount of good yet have no choice but to leave everything else to waste.

And yet if they give themselves over to the Will of God their good, though small in effect, will be great in the eyes of God. If only they have good will God will make up what is lacking.

On the contrary, it is only vanity when the superiority you have is false and (worse) it is expressed. Just because you are humble about the things you don’t know about doesn’t mean you should put yourself down regarding things you do know about.

This is true in the strictest sense.

This goes especially for encounters with people who act like they know but they don’t and that in fact you know better. I myself do take pride in it (rare that is for someone like me) because I do know some things my sister’s friends have no clue about regarding religion. I have the proof to back it up and thus, I have every reason to believe they are wrong. As a matter of fact, I have more grim satisfaction hearing their moronic rants against belief and laughing in my head knowing that as long as their cups are full, they’ll never know the truth.

See, this is what I meant by pride and vanity. That you know what is of God is good, but if you retain that knowledge when you can, slowly, little by little, affect your family makes it in vain. And that you have satisfaction at the ignorance is pride, because you wish to bask in excellence. You boast your excellence (even if it is only to yourself) but never seek to help others to achieve the same or even better. You shouldn’t be laughing at your sister and her friends, you should feel pity for them. They are heading down a dark road and need your prayers. Instead you have that “you just wait” attitude. Now this may stave of the urge to yell at them, but if this is where it ends then you need to work on this. Not only this, but your beliefs are not your own work, but God gave you the grace to believe. You have no right to take satisfaction in their unbelief because your own faith is not deserved, but a gift, and you are lucky that God mercifully gave it to you. You should not count yourself as spiritually greater, but grateful and lucky that the path was shown to you and you received the grace to walk it and continue walking in it.

This is also why I was getting at why that attitude I had was bad. I didn’t correct sinners, but like you simply laughed inside (therefore taking satisfaction in their sin, their fall from excellence, which would thus elevate me relative to them, really little different than what the devil did), and never correct the “religious”, merely tell them they wouldn’t understand when some do, and treat them like children who know nothing and look down on their devotion. I counted their faith as unworthy because I thought "these guys wouldn’t last a second in the ‘real’ world, that is, ‘my’ world.

And yet when it is almost never charitable to do so, what do you do? Contrary to what you would assume, it would not be charitable to disapprove of my parents beliefs for they would have nothing else to drive them to be successful businessmen. Neither it would be charitable to tell my sister to get a new crowd for it is not my place and I cannot control her.

If it is never charitable then pray for them. As for your parents, I doubt that their drives only come from their beliefs, what about the will to provide for their children?

Like I said, the only good you could ever do is nothing and go along with their flow, trying your hardest not to drown.

Or not participate.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

First off, I’d like to say that what I’ve said still pertains to the discussion somewhat because there are indeed certain climates that would actually force you to become someone more eligible for Purgatory than Heaven.

My point is you have no reason to be proud of it or feel superior to others because it is a gratuitous gift from God that you have done nothing to earn. And God could take it away whenever he chooses. It does not belong to you, it is yours on loan.

Here’s the difference between you and I. You seem to see God as some sort of overlord and we are merely peons who are subject to his gift-giving and gift-taking.

On the contrary, we are given unique gifts because God knows we in of ourselves have a uniqueness that makes us the only ones capable of making use of these gifts. To demean these gifts and not take pride in them would actually be an insult to the giver.

Well, you may think I’m naive, but I’m a convert, and my family and friends are mostly atheists. When speaking to them doesn’t work, there is always prayer and penance. Whether they want to be converted or not, you should be praying for their conversion so that they will not have to spend an eternity suffering, separated from God.

Praying for their conversion is different from sharing the Truth with them (which is what your analogy with Lazarus was all about).

Also, you don’t really know what may be going on in their hearts. Before my conversion, I used to say very anti-Christian things. You are judging them on their speech and behavior, but God alone sees their hearts. While I don’t know what is in your heart, either, your speech appears to be full of hatred and anger towards them. Be careful. “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (1 Jn. 3:15)

Hatred in of itself has been proven to be righteous. Look at what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah. Paul got knocked off his horse and was blinded. Are you to say God is a murderer? You don’t need to see in their hearts to criticize the things they say or do. “Hate the sin but not the sinner” becomes very difficult once the sinner and sin are starting to become one.

I don’t know what is pitiful about being open to the grace of God. You have some very strange ideas.

Open? Them? I’ve seen doors with looser locks.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And yet if they give themselves over to the Will of God their good, though small in effect, will be great in the eyes of God. If only they have good will God will make up what is lacking.

Good luck praying for a miracle on that one.

See, this is what I meant by pride and vanity. That you know what is of God is good, but if you retain that knowledge when you can, slowly, little by little, affect your family makes it in vain. And that you have satisfaction at the ignorance is pride, because you wish to bask in excellence. You boast your excellence (even if it is only to yourself) but never seek to help others to achieve the same or even better.

I’m afraid you have misjudged me. I say it again, why fill a cup that’s already full? Didn’t I say already? The satisfaction I gain from their ignorance is the only satisfaction I have out of this whole mess because they don’t want help. They don’t want directions. In fact, I say this not only of the ones I’ve met but by many just here on the internet (Ever tried evangelizing on YouTube?) I don’t wholly wish to bask in excellence (not all the time anyways) but that’s the only positive thing I can see out of this situation.

You shouldn’t be laughing at your sister and her friends, you should feel pity for them. They are heading down a dark road and need your prayers. Instead you have that “you just wait” attitude. Now this may stave of the urge to yell at them, but if this is where it ends then you need to work on this. Not only this, but your beliefs are not your own work, but God gave you the grace to believe. You have no right to take satisfaction in their unbelief because your own faith is not deserved, but a gift, and you are lucky that God mercifully gave it to you.

You should not count yourself as spiritually greater, but grateful and lucky that the path was shown to you and you received the grace to walk it and continue walking in it.

Sorry but I have a more intellectual and philosophical approach to faith so I don’t exactly think attributing all of my reasons for believing to solely divine intervention and chance. I did my share of work too to reach my conclusions. God and I are like master and pupil. God gives the lessons and I thank him but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be credited at all for learning them. My “spirituality” is less about mysticism and more about using your head. Thus, that’s why I have this “attitude” because I know people are less inclined to explore that which I’ve explored (so much less the crowd my siblings surround themselves with).

That and it’s not my sister I’m laughing at. She’s a good girl (most of the time anyways ) and not all her friends are idiots. It just so happens some of them manage to outshout the rest and put them down just by their Bloated Ego Aura. Now those guys are the dolts I take pleasure in ridiculing in my head.

This is also why I was getting at why that attitude I had was bad. I didn’t correct sinners, but like you simply laughed inside (therefore taking satisfaction in their sin, their fall from excellence, which would thus elevate me relative to them, really little different than what the devil did), and never correct the “religious”, merely tell them they wouldn’t understand when some do, and treat them like children who know nothing and look down on their devotion. I counted their faith as unworthy because I thought "these guys wouldn’t last a second in the ‘real’ world, that is, ‘my’ world.

Some people don’t want to be corrected. That’s the problem but at the same time, the reason for my mental laughter. How can I not help it? It’s the only bright side to this whole mess. You can never change people (much less those with shut minds like some bullies I know). Their refusal to acknowledge the truth pretty much seals the deal for them unless by some miracle the door in their minds open. I have learned that it is only with an open mind that it is best to teach someone and share what you believe.

On the other hand, its that very reason I find the religious ones much easier to correct. They are humble (in general), aware of their naivety (mostly), yet still willing to brave those dangers. Thus, contrary to what you have assumed, I do correct them.

If it is never charitable then pray for them. As for your parents, I doubt that their drives only come from their beliefs, what about the will to provide for their children?

Take out the New Age stuff and it leaves them open to seeing us more of a burden. Trust me, that happens a lot around here in this country. They may still provide for us but they will no longer do it out of love.

Or not participate.

Can’t do that either. I’m her brother remember? Its my job to be around her.

 

[Student09]

Hatred in of itself has been proven to be righteous. Look at what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah. … Are you to say God is a murderer?

Now you are comparing yourself to God? We are not God, we are spiritual descendants of Abraham. Well, let’s see, how did Abraham react to God’s plan to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

Then the LORD said: “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out.”

While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.

Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?  Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?"

The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

Abraham spoke up again: "See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes!  What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "if I find forty-five there."

But Abraham persisted, saying, "What if only forty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty."

Then he said, "Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there."

Still he went on, "Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "for the sake of the twenty."

But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" "For the sake of those ten," he replied, "I will not destroy it."

The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.  (Gen. 18:21-33)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Now you are comparing yourself to God? We are not God, we are spiritual descendants of Abraham. Well, let’s see, how did Abraham react to God’s plan to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

Again you presume erroneously not just once but twice. So what if I’m in agreement with the Almighty along a certain line of thinking (regarding judgment and justice in particular)? How does that make me less of agreeing with the Lord and not comparing myself to Him? Your logic is obscure. Secondly, what was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? They had found none righteous there. None. Take a hint. Are you suggesting that Abraham was in the right to question God’s judgment? Are you actually siding with him on the subject?

 

[Student09]

Secondly, what was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? They had found none righteous there. None. Take a hint. Are you suggesting that Abraham was in the right to question God’s judgment? Are you actually siding with him on the subject?

Yes, of course. He wasn’t questioning God’s judgment - he was acting as an intercessor. This is what the saints have done throughout history, and what Jesus Himself did to the fullest on the cross. He died for us “while we were enemies” (Rom 5). He “did not come to call the righteous but sinners” (Mk. 2:17).

St. Therese prayed fervently for (and obtained) the conversion of a convicted murderer. St. Gemma pleaded for a hardened sinner and obtained his conversion also - after arguing with God for a while (“I know, Jesus,” she said, “I know it, that he has offended Thee thus grievously. But I have done worse and, for all that, You have shown me Mercy. I know, I know, o Jesus, that he has made Thee weep. But now, Jesus-You must not think of his sins. You must think of the Blood You have shed. What immense Charity, o Jesus, have You not lavished on me! Use with my sinner, I implore of Thee, all those delicacies of Infinite Love that You have used toward me” - from the biography by her spiritual director). There are many similar examples.

Observe that God accepted Abraham’s intercession - he agreed that if there were ten righteous people, he would spare the city. It just turned out that there were not ten righteous people. But if there had been, the city would have been saved due to Abraham’s intercession.

Also, you can see that there is a shift: Abraham interceded for the righteous; Jesus died for the unrighteous and opened the doors for the saints who came after him to intercede for the unrighteous.

 

[Monica4316]

I’ve thought about what you all are saying about ridiculing people in your mind because they don’t want to believe… (I’ve done it too)

Imagine it’s the Last Judgement, and you see these people being judged… they realize all their sins, and all the ways they have ignored God… and they are filled with absolute despair, and are condemned to hell forever and ever. In a billion years, they would still be there, suffering in ways that no one suffers on earth, regretting their sins but not being able to repent.

How can we possibly take pleasure in this?

If you see a person who is not willing to turn to God, isn’t that the greatest tragedy? St John Vianney wept for sinners… ridiculing them or feeling superior is not only lack of humility, it is lack of charity.

In addition, are we not all sinners? If I stood before God right now, I would see that I only deserve hell… and that I haven’t done much good in my life, but have done much evil. We are all poor sinners in the eyes of God. We have nothing to be proud of, we (at least I) are in no way better than the non believers. The difference is that we know the truth, and they don’t… but how much are we doing with that truth? are we bearing fruit? If we don’t bear fruit, we’ll be like branches that are cut off.

 

[Shin]

read this book and all your questions will be answered - tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/694

here is a book for free online, which you can also buy, called “Read me or rue it”, and it will also explain many things, including what some souls in purgatory have to tell us - 2heartsnetwork.org/ReadMeorRueit.doc

and here are two others by the same author -
2heartsnetwork.org/PURGATORY.doc
2heartsnetwork.org/HowtoAvoidPurgatory.doc

These are great book recommendations! Particularly the first book, from Tan Books, Fr. Scouppe’s book is life changing, unforgettable!

'ACCORDING to the saints, there is great diversity in the corporal pains of Purgatory. Although fire is the principal instrument of torture, there is also the torment of cold, the torture of the members, and the torture applied to the different senses of the human body. This diversity of suffering seems to correspond to the nature of the sins, each one of which demands its own punishment, according to these words: “By what things a man sinneth, by the same also is he tormented.” It is just that it should be so with regard to the chastisement, since the same diversity exists in the distribution of the reward. In Heaven each one receives according to his works, and, as Venerable Bede says, each one receives his crown, his robe of glory. For the martyr this robe is of a rich purple colour, whilst that of the confessor has the brilliancy of a dazzling whiteness. . .

FAITH does not teach us the precise duration of the pains of Purgatory. We know in general that they are measured by Divine Justice, and that for each one they are proportioned to the number and gravity of the faults which he has not yet expiated. God may, however, without prejudice to His Justice, abridge these sufferings by augmenting .their intensity; the Church Militant also may obtain their remission by the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and other suffrages… offered for the departed.

According to the common opinion of the doctors, the expiatory pains are of long duration. "There is no doubt, says Bellarmine, " that the pains of Purgatory are not limited to ten or twenty years, and that they last in some cases entire centuries. But allowing it to be true that their duration did not exceed ten or twenty years, can we account it as nothing to have to endure for ten or twenty years the most excruciating sufferings without the least alleviation? If a man was assured that he should suffer some violent pain in his feet, or his head, or teeth for the space of twenty years, and that without ever sleeping or taking the least repose, would he not a thousand times rather die than live in such a state? And if the choice were given to him between a life thus miserable and the loss of all his temporal goods, would he hesitate to make the sacrifice of his fortune to be delivered from such a torment?

. . . Father Mumford, of the Company of Jesus, in his “Treatise on Charity towards the Departed,” bases the long duration of Purgatory on a calculation of probability, which we shall give in substance. He goes out on the principle that, according to the words of the Holy Ghost, “The just man falls seven times a day,” that is to say, that even those who apply themselves most perfectly to the service of God, notwithstanding their good-will, commit a great number of faults in the infinitely pure eyes of God. We have but to enter into our own conscience, and there analyse before God our thoughts, our words, and works, to be convinced of this sad effect of human misery. Oh ! how easy it is to lack respect in prayer, to prefer our ease to the accomplishment of duty, to sin by vanity, by impatience, by sensuality, by uncharitable thoughts and words, by want of conformity to the will of God! The day is long; is it very difficult for even a virtuous person to commit, I do not say seven, but twenty or thirty of this kind of faults and imperfections?

Let us take a moderate estimate, and suppose that you commit about ten faults a day; at the end of 365 days you will have a sum of 3650 faults. Let us diminish, and, to facilitate the calculation, place it at 3000 per year. At the end of ten years this will amount to 30,000, and at the end of twenty years to 60,000. Suppose that of these 60,000 faults you have expiated one half by penance and good works, there will still remain 30,000 to be atoned for.

Let us continue our hypothesis: You die after these twenty years of virtuous life, and appear before God with a debt of 30,000 faults, which you must discharge in Purgatory. How much time will you need to accomplish this expiation? Suppose, on an average, each fault requires one hour of Purgatory. This measure is very moderate, if we judge by the revelations of the saints; but at any rate this will give you a Purgatory of 30,000 hours. Now, do you know how many years these 30,000 hours represent? Three years, three months, and fifteen days. Thus a good Christian who watches over himself, who applies himself to penance and good works, finds himself liable to three years, three months, and fifteen days of Purgatory.

The preceding calculation is based on an estimate which is lenient in the extreme.

Now, if you extend the duration of the pain, and, instead of an hour, you take a day for the expiation of a fault, if, instead of having nothing but venial sins, you bring before God a debt resulting from mortal sins, more or less numerous, which you formerly committed, if you assign, on the average, as St. Frances of Rome says, seven years for the expiation of one mortal sin, remitted as to the guilt, who does not see that we arrive at an appalling duration, and that the expiation may easily be prolonged for many years, and even for centuries?’

• Purgatory, Fr. F.X. Schouppe