Why follow Luther, Calvin , and Wesley, and not Jesus Christ?

[Righteousone]

Amen Wisdom, I have to deal with Protestants every day who sit at my coffee club and who constantly repeat “the church is your heart”. No matter what I tell them it’s “screw history, I only go by the bible”. Well CHRIST IS HISTORY.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

God gave us the Scriptures to help us, teach and get closer to Him, but NOT as the “be all, end all” for authority.

That is I guess where many people make their first mistake.

I myself will not accept that Christ went though all that suffering and death on the cross for us and NOT leave us with something to help us until He comes again in glory. This is akin to the forefathers of the U.S. leaving us without an interpreter to the Constitution. Who does that? The Supreme Court.

Something to ponder…

He did leave us a helper His name is the Holy Spirit:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Amen Wisdom, I have to deal with Protestants every day who sit at my coffee club and who constantly repeat “the church is your heart”. No matter what I tell them it’s “screw history, I only go by the bible”. Well CHRIST IS HISTORY.

I ask for wisdom all the time because I need it quite a bit dealing with teens

There is nothinmg wrong with history and I have been learning much history and ECF’s
However, you must remember that history was still written by mere men. So when faced with a doctrinal issue where would you go to a history book or the book God gave us to find the truth about whatever it is you are looking for!
Even still–would you go to the ECF for an answer or to the bible?

 

[Righteousone]

I ask for wisdom all the time because I need it quite a bit dealing with teens

There is nothinmg wrong with history and I have been learning much history and ECF’s
However, you must remember that history was still written by mere men. So when faced with a doctrinal issue where would you go to a history book or the book God gave us to find the truth about whatever it is you are looking for!
Even still–would you go to the ECF for an answer or to the bible?

The ECF. Since they existed before the bible. Depends.

 

[Harpazo]

That is I guess where many people make their first mistake. He did leave us a helper His name is the Holy Spirit:thumbsup:

Where does the Bible tell us that all we have to do is call upon the Holy Spirit, because the Bible is the final arbiter of Truth for the Christian, and he’ll help us interpret the Bible?

You can go no further than your phone book to see that this egregious sin that the reformers started has caused.

Al-Masih Qam!
Andrew

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The ECF. Since they existed before the bible. Depends.

So you trust men more then God? Because the CC does not agree with all the teachings of the ECF you know.
Always go to the Word of God–because He will you will never lead you astray:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Where does the Bible tell us that all we have to do is call upon the Holy Spirit, because the Bible is the final arbiter of Truth for the Christian, and he’ll help us interpret the Bible?

 

[MH84]

AllForHim,

1. where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is eternal? How do you know He wasn’t created?
2. Where in the Gospels or the Acts of the Apostles is the Holy Spirit worshipped as God?
3. How come the apostles never called God, the “Blessed Trinity”?

Verses from your bible would be nice.

Thanks.

 

[Pinkyyy]

There are human beings in the church, and there will be human error as well. But the fact of the matter is that the Roman Catholic church is still standing. Any other church would of collapsed early on. Like I keep saying, it isn’t the cleverness of the bishops, but the guidance of the holy spirit. Jesus said his church will prevail until the end of time, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What do you think he meant as he said this?

Well, I think that maybe it may be taken too literally. I do not think he means the Catholic church, but the Christian church in general.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

AllForHim,

1. where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is eternal? How do you know He wasn’t created?
2. Where in the Gospels or the Acts of the Apostles is the Holy Spirit worshipped as God?
3. How come the apostles never called God, the “Blessed Trinity”?

Verses from your bible would be nice.

Thanks.

Im not sure why you are asking me these questions.
Do you not believe in the Trinity? Or are you just trying to get me to say the catholic church is responsible for defining it?
I have no problem saying the early church defined it. Unfortunately along the way the CC went off the tracks.
The small “c” catholic church is not the same as it is now.

But that is not what this thread is about

 

[MH84]

Im not sure why you are asking me these questions.
Do you not believe in the Trinity? Or are you just trying to get me to say the catholic church is responsible for defining it?
I have no problem saying the early church defined it. Unfortunately along the way the CC went off the tracks.
The small “c” catholic church is not the same as it is now.

But that is not what this thread is about

Ahhh, so the Church is wrong now, but not before…

I also thought that you said that the ECF’s teachings were the teachings of men. And that only truth can be found in the Bible.

 

[NDfan]

The Catholic bible is the most authentic CORRECT bible and the ONLY ONE that has the CORRECT doctrines in it. The Protestant bible, the KJV has the MOST errors in it whatsoever. The Catholic bible has NEVER been changed nor altered. The Catholic church has PROTECTED it’s doctrines from anyone who wanted to change it. (Reformers…) And excommunicated ANYONE who tried to do so. I am sorry you don’t know the truth about our bible and even when the Catholic church is the one responsible for compliling it in the first place.

Righteousone can you please tell me what errors you are speaking of?

If you want to talk about the Catholic Bible then you have to clarify which version. The Greek Septuagint which is used for the old Testament? If so then which manuscript. It might interest you to know that several maunscripts for the Septuagint existed, many of which never contained the apocryphal books.

If you want to talk about the Vulgate that was created by Jerome which was taken from one of the Septuagint manuscripts, then right off the bat you have a copy error in Genesis 3:15. Also Jerome himself regarded the apocryphal as good reading for all Christians with regard to historical information, but explicitely stated they should never be used for doctrines of Faith. Cardinal Cajetan also held this position.

Any good church historian recognizes that the Roman Catholic church brought forth the Bible, but again please tell me where all these errors occur that you speak of?

PEACE

 

[wisdomseeker]

Amen Wisdom, I have to deal with Protestants every day who sit at my coffee club and who constantly repeat “the church is your heart”. No matter what I tell them it’s “screw history, I only go by the bible”. Well CHRIST IS HISTORY.

i know exactly what you mean. they are not interested in finding the truth. they are afraid of the CC. I know more or less how Our Lord felt when those obstinate people did not listen to Him or believe Him. i dont argue with them, if they do not listen then i let it go. i am sure Our Lord will deal with them sometime. i am sure if His Church is important to Him, He will deal with those who reject His Church. wether they know or not they are rejecting Our Lord too. for i am confident that noone can manipulate God.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ahhh, so the Church is wrong now, but not before…

 

[MH84]

Yes I did

But in the Bible you can’t find the answers to my questions.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But in the Bible you can’t find the answers to my questions.

Sure I could if I had the time to devote to it. But, it has already been done for me and I trust the church back then on this issue because it is backed up by the bible.

Maybe I should clarify------I do trust Godly leaders to be teaching me the right biblical stuff–just like you trust the Pope and Magesterium–right? When I stop trusting men is when they start to stray from what the bible says.
The CC has not strayed from the Trinity:thumbsup: I am also in agreement with most if not all of the moral issues the church stands for.
But, there are doctrinal issues I just cant get past.

 

[NDfan]

But in the Bible you can’t find the answers to my questions.

MH84 sorry for barging but I have a question for you.

You claim that the Bible cannot answer your questions. So are you trying to imply that the Roman Catholic church can and has without scripture??

Just trying to get clarification on your premise.

 

[MH84]

MH84 sorry for barging but I have a question for you.

You claim that the Bible cannot answer your questions. So are you trying to imply that the Roman Catholic church can and has without scripture??

Just trying to get clarification on your premise.

Yes, she must have.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

AllForHim,

1. where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is eternal? How do you know He wasn’t created?
2. Where in the Gospels or the Acts of the Apostles is the Holy Spirit worshipped as God?
3. How come the apostles never called God, the “Blessed Trinity”?

Verses from your bible would be nice.

Thanks.

Here since you seem very interested, is some answers to your questions. from gotquestions.org Hope this helps

Question: “What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?”

Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true or not based on the teachings of the Bible.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods. The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term “Trinity” even though the word is not found in the Bible. It is shorter to say the word “Trinity” than to say “3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God.” If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob. So don’t get hung up on the term “Trinity” itself. What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

1. There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

1. The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun “Elohim” is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. That “Elohim” and “us” refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word “Elohim” and the pronoun “us” are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus’ baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

1. The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The “LORD” has a “Son” (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

1. Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

1. The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

1. The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus’ human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

to be continued

 

[ALLFORHIM]

continued
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God’s greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34)