Why follow Luther, Calvin , and Wesley, and not Jesus Christ?

[First_of_9]

And Protestants DO NOT believe in the Real Presence, therefore you ARE a Protestant.

Baptized Feb. 29, 1948, St. Marys Cathedral. Cape Girardeau, MO

First Communion Dec. 5, 1954, St. Vincent DePaul Catholic Church, Cape Girardeau, MO

Married Nov. 28, 1970, St. Clements Catholic Chur, Des Peres, MO

Last attended Mass April 27, 2008, 5:30 pm, St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church, Parma, OH

Disagreed with “Righteousone” May 1, 2008 and became Protestant.

To paraphrase Mel Brooks, “It’s good to be the Pope.”

 

[JonNC]

Was that before the 95 theses on the churches or after?

If you are talking about the real presence, both before and after. Once again, I have never seen any documents that Luther ever denied the real presence. He had every reason to, if he wanted to further irritate the papacy, but he didn’t, even with all his polemics. All Luther confessions confirm that the true and substantial body and blood of Christ are really present; not spiritually, or in remembrance. “This is my body, this is my blood”. Is is is, before and after the 95 theses.

Jon

 

[Righteousone]

If you are talking about the real presence, both before and after. Once again, I have never seen any documents that Luther ever denied the real presence. He had every reason to, if he wanted to further irritate the papacy, but he didn’t, even with all his polemics. All Luther confessions confirm that the true and substantial body and blood of Christ are really present; not spiritually, or in remembrance. “This is my body, this is my blood”. Is is is, before and after the 95 theses.

Jon

What is one truth of the Catholic faith that Luther dropped immediately on breaking with the Catholic church, and that is the crises in the Catholic church today?
Martin Luther had lost his faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the holy Eucharist. Having been a priest for 15 years as he was, he had no illusions about what the Catholic church believes. That a priest validly ordained, has the power to change Blood and Wine into the living Jesus Christ.
Luther then, having lost his own faith, could not pass that on because he no longer believed it, and yet, he had been a Catholic for too many years, not to hold on to strange, to the term Transubstantiation. Luther professed to believe in Transubstantiation. Well how can you have Transubstantiation if you don’t have a Real Presence which is made possible by the words of consecration by validly ordained priests?
Although Martin Luther, even though he might use the term Transubstantiation, he coined the word Consubstantiation.
In other words, even where he would retain the word Transubstantiation, he really meant and spent thousands of words explaining what he meant by Consubstantiation.

 

[catholiconce]

Jesus Christ has declared St. Peter and every successor to St. Peter-the pope- to be his vicar on earth "No says Protestanism, the pope is the Anti-Christ".

Jesus Christ says "I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, and shall marry another, commiteth adultery". (Matt.19:9).
No, said Luther and all Protestants to a married man, “You may put away your wife, get a divorce and marry another”.

Do you think God the Father will admit into heaven those who thus contradict His Son Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and Apostles? No, because the church of Christ is the Kingdom of God on earth, and he who leaves that Kingdom, shuts himself out from the Kingdom of Christ in heaven.

First of all Protestant is such a 16th century word. Most people you call Protestant were born and rasied in their faith. 99% of Non Catholic Christians honor the Pope. a very small number may see otherwise. I am sure there are a few catholics who dis like the Pope. You know Righteousone Maybe some day some one will read your hate filled posts and personal attacks and write a biography about you. 500 years from now folks will debate if you were a Christian based on the words or mis words of someone who read or misread what you wrote. I hope they write as you intend to project yourself and not as others interpet what you said. It has been a long day and maybe what I meant to say and what I said came out differnt. All in all those who post to this medium are from what I see Strong christian believers. If they attend church on Sunday or not or where or how often they do attend. Fact of the matter is that Christians believe in Jesus the son of God and they who believe in him shall have enternal life. Oh I was going to say more but whats the point

 

[catholiconce]

Jesus Christ has declared St. Peter and every successor to St. Peter-the pope- to be his vicar on earth "No says Protestanism, the pope is the Anti-Christ".

Jesus Christ says "I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, and shall marry another, commiteth adultery". (Matt.19:9).
No, said Luther and all Protestants to a married man, “You may put away your wife, get a divorce and marry another”.

Do you think God the Father will admit into heaven those who thus contradict His Son Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and Apostles? No, because the church of Christ is the Kingdom of God on earth, and he who leaves that Kingdom, shuts himself out from the Kingdom of Christ in heaven.

I was a RC for 43 years grew up in a large family and I know
1000s of people every group of christians has divorced memebers. you make it sound if Protestants are the only ones getting divorced :

 

[catholiconce]

And Protestants DO NOT believe in the Real Presence, therefore you ARE a Protestant.

Ah so Righteous:ehh: :ehh: one speaks for all protestants and he alone knows what others think. Fact of the matter is that is what you think we think.:ehh:

 

[Righteousone]

First of all Protestant is such a 16th century word. Most people you call Protestant were born and rasied in their faith. 99% of Non Catholic Christians honor the Pope. a very small number may see otherwise. I am sure there are a few catholics who dis like the Pope. You know Righteousone Maybe some day some one will read your hate filled posts and personal attacks and write a biography about you. 500 years from now folks will debate if you were a Christian based on the words or mis words of someone who read or misread what you wrote. I hope they write as you intend to project yourself and not as others interpet what you said. It has been a long day and maybe what I meant to say and what I said came out differnt. All in all those who post to this medium are from what I see Strong christian believers. If they attend church on Sunday or not or where or how often they do attend. Fact of the matter is that Christians believe in Jesus the son of God and they who believe in him shall have enternal life. Oh I was going to say more but whats the point

Yea, Catholiconce, it’s hard for you as an anti-Catholic to see others defending the true faith. The word Proestant will be heard forever. Hey, don’t blame me, blame Luther and the ‘other’ Reformers. You have only half-truth and nothing more.

 

[catholiconce]

Yea, Catholiconce, it’s hard for you as an anti-Catholic to see others defending the true faith. The word Proestant will be heard forever. Hey, don’t blame me, blame Luther and the ‘other’ Reformers. You have only half-truth and nothing more.

I am not anti Catholic. What is the point in all of this ?? I am done here Life is to short to be sitting in front of a computer hashing out all this out. There are others you can insult and attack

 

[reteeks21]

I am not anti Catholic. What is the point in all of this ?? I am done here Life is to short to be sitting in front of a computer hashing out all this out. There are others you can insult and attack

That’s probably for the best, my friend. Anyone who disagrees with him is considered ant-catholic; just look at the most recent thread he started. Even his name tells you how highly he thinks of himself. Go enjoy your day.

 

[Righteousone]

First of all Protestant is such a 16th century word. Most people you call Protestant were born and rasied in their faith. 99% of Non Catholic Christians honor the Pope. a very small number may see otherwise. I am sure there are a few catholics who dis like the Pope. You know Righteousone Maybe some day some one will read your hate filled posts and personal attacks and write a biography about you. 500 years from now folks will debate if you were a Christian based on the words or mis words of someone who read or misread what you wrote. I hope they write as you intend to project yourself and not as others interpet what you said. It has been a long day and maybe what I meant to say and what I said came out differnt. All in all those who post to this medium are from what I see Strong christian believers. If they attend church on Sunday or not or where or how often they do attend. Fact of the matter is that Christians believe in Jesus the son of God and they who believe in him shall have enternal life. Oh I was going to say more but whats the point

Honoring the pope and believing in the pope are two entirely different things. Anyone who does not follow the pope and is a Roman Catholic, should not be one.

 

[JonNC]

What is one truth of the Catholic faith that Luther dropped immediately on breaking with the Catholic church, and that is the crises in the Catholic church today? Martin Luther had lost his faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the holy Eucharist. Having been a priest for 15 years as he was, he had no illusions about what the Catholic church believes. That a priest validly ordained, has the power to change Blood and Wine into the living Jesus Christ.

What, again, is the crisis?
Also, only Christ has the power to change the bread and wine into His body and blood. He uses the clergy, with His words of institution to have this take place.

Luther then, having lost his own faith, could not pass that on because he no longer believed it, and yet, he had been a Catholic for too many years, not to hold on to strange, to the term Transubstantiation. Luther professed to believe in Transubstantiation. Well how can you have Transubstantiation if you don’t have a Real Presence which is made possible by the words of consecration by validly ordained priests?

Please state the source where Luther states he lost his faith. And remember now, it is the Catholic Church’s teaching that only the Catholic Church has valid orders. I respectfully disagree, as do Lutherans. On the other hand, I do not deny that Christ likewise works his power through Catholic priests, as well, and the body and blood are truly present in Catholic Eucharist.

Although Martin Luther, even though he might use the term Transubstantiation, he coined the word Consubstantiation.
In other words, even where he would retain the word Transubstantiation, he really meant and spent thousands of words explaining what he meant by Consubstantiation

To my knowledge, after the reformation, he used neither word. As I quoted earlier, he left the disposition of the bread and wine to God’s will. It is the body and blood that matter. Consubstantiation is a term applied to “in, with, and under” by others, not by Lutherans. As I said, Transubstantiation seems to me, personally, to be perfectly reasonable human expression of the mystery of the Eucharist. I have no problem with it.

Righteousone, I really get the feeling that you misunderstand Luther’s teachings. Of course, many noncatholics misunderstand Catholic teaching, as well.

Blessings,
Jon

 

[O.S.Luke]

Luther never used the word consubstantiation. Neither is it the official teaching of Lutheran Churches, per official denominational statements.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

And Protestants DO NOT believe in the Real Presence, therefore you ARE a Protestant.

That’s interesting logic: hamburgers don’t believe in the RP, or in Papal Infallibility, or in Papal primacy: does that make hamburgers into Protestants ?​

Sikhs do not believe that Moses is the final prophet - neither do Muslims, nor do Catholics: does that mean Sikhs & Muslims & Catholics have the same faith ?

 

[Jibb_Smart]

It’s silly to say that Jesus and/or Peter started Catholocism and therefore that’s right.

How much has Catholocism changed since Jesus or Peter? Purgatory, Indulgences, celibacy of Mary (and her Assumption), Infallibility of the Pope, the Priest’s role in the Church, Sacred Tradition (most of which is unheard of in Jesus’ time), salvation outside the Church (to a degree), veneration of (and even prayer to) the Saints… so much has nothing to do with the original church.

I personally don’t think God cares much for bells, stale chants, and worship of His mortal servants.

Jibb

 

[Harpazo]

It’s silly to say that Jesus and/or Peter started Catholocism and therefore that’s right.

How much has Catholocism changed since Jesus or Peter? Purgatory, Indulgences, celibacy of Mary (and her Assumption), Infallibility of the Pope, the Priest’s role in the Church, Sacred Tradition (most of which is unheard of in Jesus’ time), salvation outside the Church (to a degree), veneration of (and even prayer to) the Saints… so much has nothing to do with the original church.

I personally don’t think God cares much for bells, stale chants, and worship of His mortal servants.

Jibb

Welcome to CAF! You’ll understand quickly that this sort of argumentation doesn’t cut it around here. You have much to learn about the Church and we hope to learn about you too. May God bless you and bring you ever closer to Him.

Al-Masih Qam!
Andrew

 

[Jibb_Smart]

Thanks very much I appreciate the warm welcome! Though I would like to know what is wrong with my argument. I do want to learn about Catholocism, and while I didn’t read the entire thread, it already has its fair share of bad arguments

Jibb

 

[catholiconce]

It’s silly to say that Jesus and/or Peter started Catholocism and therefore that’s right.

How much has Catholocism changed since Jesus or Peter? Purgatory, Indulgences, celibacy of Mary (and her Assumption), Infallibility of the Pope, the Priest’s role in the Church, Sacred Tradition (most of which is unheard of in Jesus’ time), salvation outside the Church (to a degree), veneration of (and even prayer to) the Saints… so much has nothing to do with the original church.

I personally don’t think God cares much for bells, stale chants, and worship of His mortal servants.

Jibb

Welcome Jibb Smart

Do not let the words of a few scare you off. Some folks have nothing better to do than attack others and their beliefs. A few ( just a few) hide behind the muleberry bush and wait for somebody to post a coment and jump on them when they do. Kind of like that pit bull next door. Who is lays around all day until some walks past then he starts barking and acting mean. Kinda like that Welcome

 

[Righteousone]

Welcome Jibb Smart

Do not let the words of a few scare you off. Some folks have nothing better to do than attack others and their beliefs. A few ( just a few) hide behind the muleberry bush and wait for somebody to post a coment and jump on them when they do. Kind of like that pit bull next door. Who is lays around all day until some walks past then he starts barking and acting mean. Kinda like that Welcome

Yea Catholiconce, kinda sounds just like someone here… bow wow…

 

[wisdomseeker]

It’s silly to say that Jesus and/or Peter started Catholocism and therefore that’s right.

How much has Catholocism changed since Jesus or Peter? Purgatory, Indulgences, celibacy of Mary (and her Assumption), Infallibility of the Pope, the Priest’s role in the Church, Sacred Tradition (most of which is unheard of in Jesus’ time), salvation outside the Church (to a degree), veneration of (and even prayer to) the Saints… so much has nothing to do with the original church.

I personally don’t think God cares much for bells, stale chants, and worship of His mortal servants.

Jibb

Glory be to God forever through His Kingdom on earth The Catholic Church. Amen.

:byzsoc:

*“The Catholic Church understands its opponents, her opponents do not understand the Catholic Church.”
Hilaire Belloc, the Great Heresies… *