Why God allowed gays to born?

[DexUK]

Seeker,

No one says you have to change your desires unless you want to and if you want to have you looked to see if you can? Unless you are motivated then you will remain as you are. Until you have a reason to change, motivation, then there will be no change.

So now you ARE actually saying that Same Sex Attraction IS a choice - because you seem to believe that one can choose to change one’s unbidden desires. (I do wish you’d make up your mind!)

If that is true, you are significantly at mis-step with the Church.

CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - which you refer to as a source of a ‘cure’ only attempts to change behaviour patterns in a patient. It is a conditioning mechanism. It doesn’t change the underlying nature of a person, only the way in which they are accustomed to respond to varying stimuli.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy - perhaps you should equip yourself with some more information about CBT. If you think it can change an underlying sexual orientation you’re very much mistaken. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t even mentioned in the Wiki link on the therapy, and, in any case it’s only about modification of behaviour. It’s nothing whatsoever to do with desires!

 

[CopticChristian]

So now you ARE actually saying that Same Sex Attraction IS a choice - because you seem to believe that one can choose to change one’s unbidden desires. (I do wish you’d make up your mind!)

If that is true, you are significantly at mis-step with the Church.

CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - which you refer to as a source of a ‘cure’ only attempts to change behaviour patterns in a patient. It is a conditioning mechanism. It doesn’t change the underlying nature of a person, only the way in which they are accustomed to respond to varying stimuli.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy - perhaps you should equip yourself with some more information about CBT. !

Dex,

If the best you can do is go to Wikipedia, please do not waste my time…here read these…

**Behavioral-based therapies have not only been used to treat ego-dystonic homosexuality, those with unwanted same-sex attraction, but are also used to treat a variety of sexual conditions, such as impotence, frigidity, voyeurism, exhibitionism, transvestism, fetishism, and others (Rachman, 1961). **Rachman, S. (1961).

Sexual disorders and behavioral therapy. American Journal of Psychiatry, 118, 235-240.

**Davison and Wilson (1973) rated over two hundred behavioral therapists and found a mean of 60% who claimed success in treating homosexuality. **

Davison G. C., & Wilson, G. T. (1973). Attitudes of behavior therapists towards homosexuality. Behavior Therapy, 45(5), 686-696.

By use of adaptational therapy, a 40-year-old man who practiced homosexuality for 22 years was successfully treated; he ceased his homosexual behavior, married, and stated that he was completely cured (Poe, 1952).

Poe, J. S. (1952). The successful treatment of a 40-year-old passive homosexual based on an adaptative view of sexual behavior. Psychoanalytic Review, 39, 23-33.

**Albert Ellis (1959) by use of Rational-Emotive Therapy (RET), which he made famous, reported a patient changed to heterosexuality after a three-year follow-up. Shealy (1972) reported another patient changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality by use of RET. **

Ellis, A. (1956). The effectiveness of psychotherapy with individuals who have severe homosexual problems. Journal of Consulting Psychology, 20(3), 191.
Ellis, A. (1959). A homosexual treated with rational therapy. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 15(3), 338-343.

Shealy, A. E. (1972). Combining behavior therapy and cognitive therapy in treating homosexuality. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, and Practice, 9, 221-222.

**Despite problematic behavioral intervention, Freund (1960) reported that 26% of his patients treated, who were exclusively homosexual, reached heterosexual adaptation. **

Freund, K. (1960). Some problems in the treatment of homosexuality. In H. J. Eysenck, (Ed.), Behaviour therapy and the neuroses (pp. 312-326). London: Pergamon Press.

**Stevenson and Wolpe (1960), by use of assertiveness training, reported treatment success of two homosexuals, which led to their establishment of heterosexuality. Treatment success was also confirmed at a four-year follow-up. **

Stevenson, I., & Wolpe, J. (1960). Recovery from sexual deviations through overcoming non-sexual neurotic responses. American Journal of Psychiatry, 116, 737-742.

Schmidt, Castell, and Brown’s (1965) treatment outcome, after assessment by independent raters, found 30% of the study’s exclusive homosexuals had changed to heterosexuals.

**Serban (1968) reported treatment of 25 homosexuals using existential therapeutic approaches. He conducted a case review and concluded that after his subjects’ erotic perceptions were changed, so did the subjects’ sexual orientations. **

Serban, G. (1968). The existential therapeutic approach to homosexuality. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 22(3), 491-501.

Feldman, MacCulloch, and Orford (1971) reported follow-up results on research, done between the years of 1963-1965, with sixty-three male homosexual patients. They reported that 29% of the patients who had no prior heterosexual experience had changed. Change was indicated by the cessation of homosexual behavior, only occasional homosexual fantasies or attractions, and strong heterosexual fantasy, behavior, or both.

Feldman, M. P., MacCulloch, M.J., & Orford, J. F. (1971). Conclusions and speculations. In M. P. Feldman, & M. J. MacCulloch (Eds.), Homosexual behavior: Therapy and assessment (pp. 156-188). New York: Pergamon Press.

Van den Aardweg (1971) related that nine out of twenty patients treated using exaggeration therapy were completely cured, meaning no homosexual fantasies or behaviors were reported.

van den Aardweg, G. J. (1971). A brief theory of homosexuality. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 26, 52-68.

Barlow and Agras (1973) found a 30% decrease of homosexual behavior in patients up to six months in follow-up, utilizing the flooding technique. Using avoidance conditioning, classical conditioning, and backward conditioning.

Barlow, D. H., & Agras, W. S. (1973). Fading to increase heterosexual responsiveness
in homosexuals. Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, 6, 355-366.

**McConaghy and Barr (1973) found one-fourth of their patients ceased homosexual behavior after a 1-year follow-up. **

McConaghy, N., & Barr, R. E. (1973). Classical, avoidance and backward conditioning treatments of homosexuality. The British Journal of Psychiatry, 122, 151-162.

**Freeman and Meyer (1975) used behavioral approaches and reported a 78% successful treatment rate in patients who were exclusively homosexual after an eighteen-month follow-up. **Freeman, W. M., & Meyer, R. G. (1975). A behavioral alteration of sexual preferences in the human male. Behavior Therapy, 6, 206-212.

 

[CopticChristian]

So now you ARE actually saying that Same Sex Attraction IS a choice - because you seem to believe that one can choose to change one’s unbidden desires. (I do wish you’d make up your mind!)

If that is true, you are significantly at mis-step with the Church.

CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - which you refer to as a source of a ‘cure’ only attempts to change behaviour patterns in a patient. It is a conditioning mechanism. It doesn’t change the underlying nature of a person, only the way in which they are accustomed to respond to varying stimuli.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy - perhaps you should equip yourself with some more information about CBT. If you think it can change an underlying sexual orientation you’re very much mistaken. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t even mentioned in the Wiki link on the therapy, and, in any case it’s only about modification of behaviour. It’s nothing whatsoever to do with desires!

Dex,

read these too and then get back to me…

**Pradhan, Ayyer, and Bagadia (1982) demonstrated that by utilizing behavioral modification techniques, eight out of thirteen male homosexuals showed a shift to heterosexual adaptation that was maintained during a six-month and one-year follow-up. **

Pradhan, P. V., Ayyar, K. S., & Bagadia, V. N. (1982). Homosexuality: Treatment by behavior modification. Indian Journal of Psychiatry, 24, 80-83.

Van den Aardweg (1986a, 1986b) reported treating over one hundred homosexuals using cognitive approaches, and found that one-third of them had been radically changed in heterosexual adaptation.

van den Aardweg, G. J. (1986a). Homosexuality and hope: A psychologist talks about treatment and change. Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Books.

**Finally, the level of success in decreasing homosexuality claimed by behavioral therapists, is essentially a third or more in reported cases (Birk, Huddleston, Miller, & Cohler, 1971; Bancraft, 1974). **

Birk, L., Huddleston, W., Miller, E., & Cohler, B. (1971). Avoidance conditioning for homosexuality. Archives of General Psychiatry, 25, 314-323.

Bancroft, J. (1974). Deviant sexual behaviour: Modification and assessment. Oxford,
England: Clarendon Press.

A high percentage of behavioral therapists surveyed said that they were successful when they had a goal of helping patients achieve heterosexual shifts (Davison & Wilson, 1973).

Davison G. C., & Wilson, G. T. (1973). Attitudes of behavior therapists towards homosexuality. Behavior Therapy, 45(5), 686-696.

 

[DexUK]

Your links don’t matter since you’re arguing about a behavioural therapy!

Sin is consequent on behaviour, not desires.

How is it that you cannot understand this?

 

[CopticChristian]

Your links don’t matter since you’re arguing about a behavioural therapy!

Sin is consequent on behaviour, not desires.

How is it that you cannot understand this?

Dex,

My dude man…

CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - which you refer to as a source of a ‘cure’ only attempts to change behaviour patterns in a patient. It is a conditioning mechanism. It doesn’t change the underlying nature of a person, only the way in which they are accustomed to respond to varying stimuli.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogniti…vioral_therapy - perhaps you should equip yourself with some more information about CBT. If you think it can change an underlying sexual orientation you’re very much mistaken. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t even mentioned in the Wiki link on the therapy, and, in any case it’s only about modification of behaviour. It’s nothing whatsoever to do with desires!

you posited a point of view that I pointed out is incorrect…accept the correction…

 

[DexUK]

Incidentally, most of those references are 40 to 50 years old or more.

Considering that the science of psychology and psychiatry is quite a young specialisation and has moved on a lot further these days compared to when people were still being routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy and frontal-lobotomies, perhaps when you’ve got some extensive global peer-reviewed work referring to a large population of individuals and carried out with medically relevant double blind tests to refer to that has been completed within, say, the last 10 years, perhaps then I’ll take a little more notice of you.

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

My dude man…

you posited a point of view that I pointed out is incorrect…accept the correction…

What correction?

CBT.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

The clue is in bold…

 

[CatholicSheila]

psychiatry is quite a young specialisation and has moved on a lot further these days compared to when people were still being routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy

What do you mean it’s moved on? Electro-shock therapy is quite common. It is still very much an accepted medical treatment.

 

[DexUK]

What do you mean it’s moved on? Electro-shock therapy is quite common. It is still very much an accepted medical treatment.

Only in very limited circumstances.

In the past, and certainly 50 years or so ago, it was still in use for a range of psychiatric and psychological conditions that no physician would ever contemplate using it for nowadays.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy

 

[CatholicSheila]

Only in very limited circumstances.

In the past, and certainly 50 years or so ago, it was still in use for a range of psychiatric and psychological conditions that no physician would ever contemplate using it for nowadays.

%between%

You said:
*routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy *

You have not linked to anything that even suggests it is “deeply inappropriate” and “old fashioned”. That really is suggesting it doesn’t get used anymore and that no one accepts that it works. As though it is from the stone age. That is completely false.

It is very much an accepted medical treatment that thousands of people go through every year. Yes, it is less used. We have more and better anti-depressants and anti-psychotics than we did in the 50’s. That is a good thing, but is still used and accepted by the medical community.

You might want to think about the word Cognitive in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy as well. It’s just as important as the behavioural part. In fact, I’d say it’s the goal. To change not just how people react to what they’re thinking/feeling, but to stop the harmful thoughts/feelings. Not saying it can change sexual orientation - but the argument that it can’t because it is focused on behaviour only is completely off base.

I think you said earlier that you have personal experience in this field. You’re really not showing it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Catholic Sheila
**
There are numerous people who are SSA and were not abused by homosexual adults, and the claim is incredibly insulting to both those suffering with SSA and those who took care of them.**

Blah, blah, blah.

Unless you are claiming all the homosexuals are liars? Even those with SSA who choose to live in line with Church teaching? In which case, you’re just a troll. Grow up.

Homosexuals are liars and extremely insulting to their parents if they claim their parents gave them the “gay” gene which has never even been proven to exist.

Please grow up and read the scientific literature instead of blaming parents for homosexuality.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Catholic Sheila
**
There are numerous people who are SSA and were not abused by homosexual adults, and the claim is incredibly insulting to both those suffering with SSA and those who took care of them.**

Blah, blah, blah.

Unless you are claiming all the homosexuals are liars? Even those with SSA who choose to live in line with Church teaching? In which case, you’re just a troll. Grow up.

Homosexuals are liars and extremely insulting to their parents if they claim their parents gave them the “gay” gene which has never even been proven to exist.

Please grow up and read the scientific literature instead of blaming parents for homosexuality.

ok… troll. Ignore.

Bye.

edit: You don’t seem to be able to ignore on this board. Just have to self-regulate.

 

[DexUK]

You said:
*routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy *

You have not linked to anything that even suggests it is “deeply inappropriate” and “old fashioned”. That really is suggesting it doesn’t get used anymore and that no one accepts that it works. As though it is from the stone age. That is completely false.

It is very much an accepted medical treatment that thousands of people go through every year. Yes, it is less used. We have more and better anti-depressants and anti-psychotics than we did in the 50’s. That is a good thing, but is still used and accepted by the medical community.

You might want to think about the word Cognitive in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy as well. It’s just as important as the behavioural part. In fact, I’d say it’s the goal. To change not just how people react to what they’re thinking/feeling, but to stop the harmful thoughts/feelings. Not saying it can change sexual orientation - but the argument that it can’t because it is focused on behaviour only is completely off base.

I think you said earlier that you have personal experience in this field. You’re really not showing it.

Cognitive - of cognition, the group of mental processes that includes attention, memory, producing and understanding language, learning, reasoning, problem solving, and decision making.

In the context of CBT - the decisive process involved in deliberately amending one’s behaviour. Essentially the formation of a habitual reaction.

CBT would be useful in ‘programming’ a person to choose not react to sexual stimuli in certain ways, but none of it will have any effect on the sexual stimuli themselves, just what they choose to do about them.

I really don’t see what’s so complicated about it or why you think there’s some different understanding of it.

As for my experience in the matter: one of the closest friends I have in the world is a qualified practitioner of CBT and I have discussed it with him in great depth.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

CatholicSheila

Class dismissed! :yawn:

 

[CatholicSheila]

Cognitive - of cognition, the group of mental processes that includes attention, memory, producing and understanding language, learning, reasoning, problem solving, and decision making.

In the context of CBT - the decisive process involved in deliberately amending one’s behaviour. Essentially the formation of a habitual reaction.

CBT would be useful in ‘programming’ a person to choose not react to sexual stimuli in certain ways, but none of it will have any effect on the sexual stimuli themselves, just what they choose to do about them.

I really don’t see what’s so complicated about it or why you think there’s some different understanding of it.

As for my experience in the matter: one of the closest friends I have in the world is a qualified practitioner of CBT and I have discussed it with him in great depth.

So you have no actual experience or exposure?

Your position is difficult for me to understand, because I do have actual experience with it. And whilst teaching people to change their response is good, often problems with the thoughts have to be dealt with as well. CBT doesn’t ignore this, but can use behavioural changes to impact the thoughts/feelings. If you are on a basic 5 week course of 1 hr appointments, then that’s not the focus but CBT is used in different ways. It’s not a simple: CBT does only x. What is hard to understand that changing your behaviour can affect your thoughts and feelings? Changing your thoughts can definitely change your feelings, and you absolutely can change the way you react to certain stimuli.

Don’t argue about whether or not it will cure homosexuality. That’s Coptics claim, not mine. It’s an interesting proposition, but not one I’ve heard or seen support for so I’m not currently subscribing to it.

 

[90Domer]

Statistically, I just read an article discussing scientific studies which were done on twins and homosexuality. (I’ll try to find it again to provide the cite information.) Basically, in these various studies, it was determined that among twins (regardless if they were fraternal or identical) homosexual tendencies were 16% to 30% as a result of possible genetic links, HOWEVER, they also determined that between 52% and 69% were due to purely environmental issues (family home environment, possible abuse, traumatic experiences, etc.). So, even science is saying that the theory that genetics plays a major role in whether a person is born homosexual is slim. And like you said, we all have our Crosses. We all are called to live holy and pure lives regardless of our state in life. That many people have difficulty with purity and chastity only proves that concupiscence (lust) is rightfully one of the 7 deadly sins.

My husband is a statistician and pointed this out to me. And I agree with you having seen how SSA played out in his family. I never held firm to the “born that way” theory because there is a large part of child development (birth to 3) that most children will no remember–autistic kids being one exception. We know that children who received poor care and little nurturing as infants faced difficult lives ahead of them. To some extent, I can rationalize how kids growing up in certain environments may be confused about gender identity and develop SSA.

What I am about to write is going to receive major flack, but here it goes. With most developmental differences that fall outside the norm–autism, cerebral palsy, mental retardation, ADHD to name a few–we strive to provide therapy for the kids so that they become mainstream, as most school districts call it. Why is SSA so different? As with these other conditions, there are very good reasons to “mainstream” these kids. Instead, society is doing just the opposite. We are affirming SSA at younger and younger ages. We are embracing traits of SSA as great and wonderful when, in fact, there are many traits about it which are hazardous to the health of the SSA individual. Why is this the case? Honestly, I have never been able to reconcile that.

 

[DexUK]

So you have no actual experience or exposure?

Your position is difficult for me to understand, because I do have actual experience with it. And whilst teaching people to change their response is good, often problems with the thoughts have to be dealt with as well. CBT doesn’t ignore this, but can use behavioural changes to impact the thoughts/feelings. If you are on a basic 5 week course of 1 hr appointments, then that’s not the focus but CBT is used in different ways. It’s not a simple: CBT does only x. What is hard to understand that changing your behaviour can affect your thoughts and feelings? Changing your thoughts can definitely change your feelings, and you absolutely can change the way you react to certain stimuli.

Don’t argue about whether or not it will cure homosexuality. That’s Coptics claim, not mine. It’s an interesting proposition, but not one I’ve heard or seen support for so I’m not currently subscribing to it.

CBT will enable a person to give less ‘weight’ to their desires: take the person with OCD for example… they might have an excessive desire to wash their hands to such an extent that they scrub and scrub and eventually draw blood… CBT can help deal with the faulty ‘aberrant’ thought processes involved in compulsive behaviour: but that person won’t ever turn into a completely ‘dirty’ person instead… the desire to keep clean will remain, but it can be managed through the mental techniques learned in therapy. Likewise for various phobias, etc. While I can see that it would help a person modify their behaviour if, say, they were addicted to something, but I don’t think homosexuality as an orientation is in any way amendable by CBT techniques: only the behaviour is.

To the extent that CBT is not a cure for the homosexual orientation, I’m glad to see that we agree.

 

[DexUK]

My husband is a statistician and pointed this out to me. And I agree with you having seen how SSA played out in his family. I never held firm to the “born that way” theory because there is a large part of child development (birth to 3) that most children will no remember–autistic kids being one exception. We know that children who received poor care and little nurturing as infants faced difficult lives ahead of them. To some extent, I can rationalize how kids growing up in certain environments may be confused about gender identity and develop SSA.

What I am about to write is going to receive major flack, but here it goes. With most developmental differences that fall outside the norm–autism, cerebral palsy, mental retardation, ADHD to name a few–we strive to provide therapy for the kids so that they become mainstream, as most school districts call it. Why is SSA so different? As with these other conditions, there are very good reasons to “mainstream” these kids. Instead, society is doing just the opposite. We are affirming SSA at younger and younger ages. We are embracing traits of SSA as great and wonderful when, in fact, there are many traits about it which are hazardous to the health of the SSA individual. Why is this the case? Honestly, I have never been able to reconcile that.

How do you explain the incidence of homosexuality in large families then? In particular in twins. If one twin turns out gay and the other doesn’t, it would seem eminently logical that both twin would have been brought up more or less identically (especially if they themselves were identical twins) between 0 and 3.

In any case, even if a child may not be ‘born gay’, if sexuality is somehow fixed at a very early age in ways nobody can yet pin down, it certainly can’t be said to be a choice.

Also, if sexuality IS a choice, how come all those who insist that they could not possibly choose to be homosexual then go on to insist that homosexuals should choose to be heterosexual? It looks a lot like double standards to me…

 

[90Domer]

Gee, I don’t know. It’s not like anyone is bullying/berating/demeaning/harassing them. That never happens!

Well, I never see SSA people themselves getting attacked within the Catholic community but rather their actions, at far as I see. It’s when the SSA person defines himself by his sexual proclivities that these problems arise.

 

[DexUK]

Well, I never see SSA people themselves getting attacked within the Catholic community but rather their actions, at far as I see. It’s when the SSA person defines himself by his sexual proclivities that these problems arise.

The problems tend to arise when people get pedantic about language.

Most normal (non Forum inhabiting!) people don’t tend to consider the word “gay” as anything other than an adjective that means same-sex-attracted… We’ve had the discussion before about whether that means they’re agreeing with a political or activist agenda, but for most people that’s simply over their heads and they’re just using language in a neutral way.