Why God allows disabbilities to his creations?

[mcrisp411]

Did you mean “were created?” Or “Were not created?” just clarifying, something doesn’t read right there….

Thinking of Adam and Eve does beg a few questions. (Not directed at buffalo)

Like

1. Why were the whole human race punished for their first mistake? Not only were there no second chances, there was severe punishment for their first mistake. Not only in their immediate physical world, i.e. being banished, having to bear children through pain, working for food, pain, suffering and death, but their descendants were also punished for their sins, and not just to the 10th generation, still to this day.
2. Why would God do that? Why would he create something, when he knows that they are going to fail. I understand free will and all, but go back one step further, why would he even begin creating us if he knows his first two subjects will err on their first trial, and then not only punish them but all human life on earth.
3. Why did God not stay his hand? He must have seen that the result of the mistake will bring, what hardships will lie in wait for even the tiniest of innocent baby.
   I saw a blind child the other day and I almost cried right there on the spot. What did that child do to deserve that? And don’t tell me that something good will come of it. That may be the case in some instances, but countless people and innocent children suffer without any good coming from it. I.E. War torn regions around the globe, food crisis spots, disabilities, etc.

I have a child with Downs Syndrome…I see how he suffers. I see how his mom suffers and I know the pity I feel for him. I love him so much and if I had even the tiniest of supernatural power, I’d fix him right there. What loving father wouldn’t?? I want to ask why…but spending 5 minutes pondering this, just points to the fact that there probably isn’t a god because a loving father wouldn’t do this.

It most certainly doesn’t sound like the merciful and loving god we hear about does it? And if we do decide to believe in him, why would you want to, seeing that he did all this, knowing how many would suffer and still went ahead?

As in my religious status, I’m an agnostic, but I tell ya one thing….if it turns out that there is a God, I have a bone to pick with him.

Im sorry friend if someone else has all ready written something to this comment.

True love cannot exsist without a choice. Our choices hurt or help someone else. You know this to be true. What you do effects everyone around you. That is why so many people have been hurt because of adam and eve. That is why love requires an action. I cannot force someone to love me even if I want it. That is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created. So that choice was available. Before hand hell was created. It was created for Satan and the angels that followed him. When sin entered the earth we fell into their category. Almost like we were powerless to them. Sin came to rule on earth and God could have said thats it. But God didnt stop there. God humbled himself and became like us. He suffered. He really suffered. More than anyone can imagine. God came so he can relate to those who are suffering. God suffered too. It wasnt for anything. It was for us. For that one chance to be with us forever. Things that happen on this earth are almost nothing to what happens after we die. This time we have on earth is just the same as the time we spent in our mothers womb. We are just getting ready to get out and live…or die as some do. God didnt have to make you and I. Or your child. Or your wife. If all of this was a waste of time then Im sure God would not have even tried. There are a few of us who do love him. There are a few of us who are close. For our sake God allows these evils to exist. Because he loves specifically me…you…the man down your street.

Isnt this what makes our fairy tales so exciting. Isnt it why we read or watch or listen to them? If there is no antagonist then the story is boaring. If there is no climax then there is no story. God is dangerous. He would not be the one I would want to pick a bone with. After you pick the bone then what? Nothing changes. You reject God and after you see the most loving thing that loved you and gave everything up for you you then cast yourself into hell. Never to see that love again.
If there is a God, for your sake my friend I pray that you open your eyes to the truth.

 

[tonyrey]

Life is fine the way it is. It makes sense…injecting a deity into it that acts the way he does complicates and clouds things that otherwise already makes rational sense.

How can life be fine and make rational sense when “countless people and innocent children suffer without any good coming from it”? (Your own words

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

My Dear PennitentMan, I have a special place in my heart for Down Syndrom kid’s. i worked with them, they can be trained to do a variety of thing’s and only need to be redirected now and then. i usto do job coaching also with them and they are a blessing to be with, they have intellect, love, can bring a smile to your face, and are a joy to be with. I called them my special kid’s and they are. As they grow and if you work with them you will find you were very blessed, to have entertained an angel while here on earth. God allow’s what we look at as suffering, to be blessing’s for other’s, don’t deprive yourself of this wonderful gift God has given to you! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[tonyrey]

I saw a blind child the other day and I almost cried right there on the spot. What did that child do to deserve that? And don’t tell me that something good will come of it. That may be the case in some instances, but countless people and innocent children suffer without any good coming from it. I.E. War torn regions around the globe, food crisis spots, disabilities, etc.

You are dead right! There is a lot of suffering in the world, especially that of children and animals,which is worse than useless because it does more harm than good. In extreme cases it drives them to insanity and suicide.
So what? What do we deduce from that? That there is no God? Not at all. It simply shows that the world is not directly controlled by God but by natural laws.
Then why doesn’t God intervene and prevent useless suffering? He must be impotent! Can’t He work miracles?
Yes, He can and does. There have been many answers to prayer. There is well documented evidence that people have been cured at Lourdes, for example.
Then why doesn’t He cure everybody? Why doesn’t He prevent every disease, deformity and disaster?
If He did we would never know what to expect next. The laws of nature would cease to be laws because there would be too many exceptions to the laws. It would be impossible to plan ahead. We would realize God must exist because prayers are always answered. We would no longer be free to choose what to believe and how to live. We would be completely dominated by fear of, and desire to please, the Creator.

If this life is the only life it is monstrously senseless and unjust. Why do we believe in justice when we surrounded by injustice? Why do we believe goodness and love are superior to evil and hatred in such a harsh world? Are we crazy? Or do we know intuitively that goodness and love are not invented by man but come from God?

 

[PennitentMan]

Im sorry friend if someone else has all ready written something to this comment.

True love cannot exsist without a choice. Our choices hurt or help someone else. You know this to be true. What you do effects everyone around you. That is why so many people have been hurt because of adam and eve.

Well, my first thought would be that there wer no other people around who directly were influenced by this decision…only god, who was upset and (apparently) surprised.

Isnt this what makes our fairy tales so exciting. Isnt it why we read or watch or listen to them? If there is no antagonist then the story is boaring. If there is no climax then there is no story.

So, it IS just a story then? It’s life, it doesn’t have to read like a story…

God is dangerous. He would not be the one I would want to pick a bone with. After you pick the bone then what? Nothing changes. You reject God and after you see the most loving thing that loved you and gave everything up for you you then cast yourself into hell. Never to see that love again.
If there is a God, for your sake my friend I pray that you open your eyes to the truth.

I have never seen him, never will, and neither has any of you, you just won’t allow yourself to admit it.

Pray all you want, nothing will happen because prayer is futile. And, I have opened my eyes to the truth…so maybe your prayer worked?

 

[PennitentMan]

How can life be fine and make rational sense when “countless people and innocent children suffer without any good coming from it”? (Your own words

It depends on your point of view really…from a christian point of view, your question requries an answer, from my point of view, it makes sense that there is suffering without any good

 

[PennitentMan]

You are dead right! There is a lot of suffering in the world, especially that of children and animals, which is worse than useless because it does more harm than good. In extreme cases it drives them to insanity and suicide.
So what? What do we deduce from that? That there is no God? Not at all. It simply shows that the world is not directly controlled by God but by natural laws.
Then why doesn’t God intervene and prevent useless suffering? He must be impotent! Can’t He work miracles?

All good and rational questions, except for your statement that there is a god. Ockham’s razor would counter this perfectly. Why inject a god into an equation that functions perfectly well without it?

Yes, He can and does. There have been many answers to prayer. There is well documented evidence that people have been cured at Lourdes, for example.

Actually, the only “documented evidence” is that 66 people no longer have the afflictions they have before. How many pilgrims go to Lourdes per year? “An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860” (Quote from Wikipedia.)

So the “official” rate of healings at the world’s most visited and “active” miracle site is 0.0000003%

But I ask you….do humans know everything about medicine? No. things happen frequently that there are no explanation for yet…the key is “Yet”. Things that may have appeared like miracles are now scientific fact, like solar eclipses, etc…
Coupled to that the placebo effect that these places generate and you see why not even Lourdes is evidence. At best it’s written as “alleged Miracles”

Many answers to prayer? No sir…rather many times, life turns out in the exact condition we hoped it would…it’s chance, not prayers.

Then why doesn’t He cure everybody? Why doesn’t He prevent every disease, deformity and disaster?
If He did we would never know what to expect next. The laws of nature would cease to be laws because there would be too many exceptions to the laws. It would be impossible to plan ahead. We would realize God must exist because prayers are always answered. We would no longer be free to choose what to believe and how to live. We would be completely dominated by fear of, and desire to please, the Creator.

If this life is the only life it is monstrously senseless and unjust. Why do we believe in justice when we surrounded by injustice? Why do we believe goodness and love are superior to evil and hatred in such a harsh world? Are we crazy? Or do we know intuitively that goodness and love are not invented by man but come from God?

This is putting the carriage in front of the horse. The reasoning is back to front. It’s like reasoning why god is not active in a world that says that he is still there….face it, he’s just not there. Nature operates by its set of laws just fine, without the requirement for god.

I’m sure I can state this more eloquently, but it’s early on a Monday and I’m still looking for my first coffee

 

[buffalo]

And how did lose the innocence? it was inherited through Adam and Eve’s mistake…their first mistake. If God made everything…but he didn’t deem the human race worthy enough to limit his punishments to the transgressors…Nope, he is a forceful, jealous and cold person, for sure…

If that were the case He would not send His only begotten son as our Redeemer. He would cease to act in His creation and not sustain it. He continues to do so.

And perhaps this may help open your eyes to His mercifulness.

The Divine Mercy

 

[PennitentMan]

My Dear PennitentMan, I have a special place in my heart for Down Syndrom kid’s. i worked with them, they can be trained to do a variety of thing’s and only need to be redirected now and then. i usto do job coaching also with them and they are a blessing to be with, they have intellect, love, can bring a smile to your face, and are a joy to be with. I called them my special kid’s and they are. As they grow and if you work with them you will find you were very blessed, to have entertained an angel while here on earth.

God allow’s what we look at as suffering, to be blessing’s for other’s, don’t deprive yourself of this wonderful gift God has given to you! Love of Christ Nancy

I love my little guy, he’s awesome. He loves to be swung around by his arms and to climb all over me, he laughs his little head off when I tickle his sides, he loves cars and big trucks, motorcycles and helicopters, he loves digging in the dirt and throwing things from high paces and watching them fall. He’s an awesome lttile dude! 

But even in this fun, I wonder, if there was a god, why would he do this?

Let me just state again that I didn’t de-convert because of this issue, of suffering as a whole, but looking at the scenario now, having realized the truth, it’s an affirmation. I love my little guy dearly, but to say that he has to suffer so that someone else can be blessed sounds a bit cruel, no? If god is so powerful, have him bless the person with a miracle (which of course will never happen), or win the lottery or something, but at the expense of a little child that now will never be able to be a pilot or a doctor is cruel and cold.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Pennetint Man,
Let me refrase this, God does not put the suffering on you it happens through man or sometimes as you know Chromozones do not connect the way they should and that happens inside of the sprem or the egg, it just happens, that embreo takes on double chromozones and it causes a defect.What i meant by that, was others can learn and be strong when these thing’s happen to people.We learn through children, playing, walking, talking, loving, suffering, and we learn from elderly, with mental illness, physical illness,etc We learn why and how they except these thing’s ,and in the future, can relate to these people if it happens to one of our own, our us.Your child is happy and he dosen’t even know he has a imbalance of chromozones, he is in this world,playing, laughing, and loving you.For this you should rejoice and be glad in the Lord that you have him, and for life in general.And you still have us who love you,pray for you,care about how you are feeling. That comes from God not Man. look at history, go ahead,look! Man has been a pain since in the garden, man has brought on war, famine,disease, every unclean and repulsive thing under the sun. Now look at the christain, the real child of God does, just the opposite,They praise God for the good and the bad in their life’s, they lead other’s to the saving grace of our Lord Jesus, they witness, perservere,pray for all who are hurting, and they do it freely, for freely it is given, they share their problems, sufferings,time,inner man, food,money,
and LOVE! Where does love come in, for people that suffer? How could they still love? Because the LoVE of God is in them. To know him is to love him! You are Loved Nancy

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi Pennetint Man,
Let me rephrase this, God does not put the suffering on you it happens through man or sometimes as you know Chromosomes do not connect the way they should and that happens inside of the sperm or the egg, it just happens, that embryo takes on double chromosomes and it causes a defect.

Exactly right….so, essentially God has nothing to do with it, and it’s BECAUSE there is not god. It’s nature.

What I meant by that, was others can learn and be strong when these things happen to people. We learn through children, playing, walking, talking, loving, suffering, and we learn from elderly, with mental illness, physical illness, etc We learn why and how they except these thing’s ,and in the future, can relate to these people if it happens to one of our own, our us.

True, it’s life experience, right? We learn through our own and other’s experiences, bad and good ones.

Your child is happy and he doesn’t even know he has a imbalance of chromosomes, he is in this world, playing, laughing, and loving you. For this you should rejoice and be glad in the Lord that you have him, and for life in general.

I do love him and find lots of joy in him. But, he’s going to get older and start to ask questions. We read a lot on Downs Syndrome…one girl we read about once said to her mom in a flurry of tears: “Mommy, I hate being Downs Syndrome” totally justified, of course….I can’t think that if my son tells me that, to tell him that god did it to him. If I did tell him that, I wouldn’t blame him if he had some serious issues with this god person. Why do we need to inject god into things that just happen.
Sure it’s unfortunate, and yes, it’s terrible, and yes I’ll definitely have to have a talk with him at some stage as to why…but explaining things biologically and rationally goes a lot further than putting it all on some unseen reason of some unseen god when we can’t explain things, or don’t want to face the facts.

And you still have us who love you, pray for you, care about how you are feeling. That comes from God not Man. That’s opinion.

look at history, go ahead, look! Man has been a pain since in the garden,

This brings me to my original point…you mentioned man in the garden. Man in the garden didn’t have the pain, but it became part of him when he was driven from the garden. That’s your theology….it was brought about by god’s punishment….but then god was so bitter that he not only punished man, but all the generations of man.

man has brought on war, famine, disease, every unclean and repulsive thing under the sun. Now look at the Christian, the real child of God does, just the opposite, They praise God for the good and the bad in their life’s, they lead other’s to the saving grace of our Lord Jesus, they witness, persevere, pray for all who are hurting, and they do it freely, for freely it is given, they share their problems, sufferings, time, inner man, food, money, and LOVE! Where does love come in, for people that suffer? How could they still love? Because the LoVE of God is in them. To know him is to love him! You are Loved Nancy

What you are touching on here is “Atheist Morality” as opposed to Christian morality, and that’s a whole different thread (there has been a myriad of threads already).
All I can say is that there are some atheists that are way better than some Christians out there. So, where do the atheists get their love and compassion from …God? Nope. Christians wage war…look at the crusades, the inquisition and the witch hunts…(I know it’s the bad examples, but it proves the point)

 

[mchale]

All good and rational questions, except for your statement that there is a god. Ockham’s razor would counter this perfectly. Why inject a god into an equation that functions perfectly well without it?

Because, despite your claims to the contrary, the equation doesn’t work as well as you seem to think it does. The best that materialists can propose is that they will have all the answers one day… but they don’t have them yet. In other words, it requires faith, just as much as believing in God, to believe that the world will be fully explained through natural science.

Natural science can explain how, but not why.

Actually, the only “documented evidence” is that 66 people no longer have the afflictions they have before. How many pilgrims go to Lourdes per year? “An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860” (Quote from Wikipedia.)

So the “official” rate of healings at the world’s most visited and “active” miracle site is 0.0000003%

Actually I think you need to look at things a bit more carefully. The way cures are officially recognized by the Church ensures that only those cures that can be explained by no other cause may be accepted as miraculous. That does not mean that there are not other miracles.

There are many miracles in this world that are not recognized as such by people. Just because you can explain something by scientific means, that does not mean that God did not use those means to provide the miracle.

But I ask you….do humans know everything about medicine? No. things happen frequently that there are no explanation for yet…the key is “Yet”. Things that may have appeared like miracles are now scientific fact, like solar eclipses, etc…
Coupled to that the placebo effect that these places generate and you see why not even Lourdes is evidence. At best it’s written as “alleged Miracles”

The miracles are “alleged” by the doubters, but are considered worthy of belief by the Church.

The funny thing here is that you are happy to have faith that science will explain things… but you think the rest of us are foolish for having faith in God.

Many answers to prayer? No sir…rather many times, life turns out in the exact condition we hoped it would…it’s chance, not prayers.

This is putting the carriage in front of the horse. The reasoning is back to front. It’s like reasoning why god is not active in a world that says that he is still there….face it, he’s just not there. Nature operates by its set of laws just fine, without the requirement for god.

I’m sure I can state this more eloquently, but it’s early on a Monday and I’m still looking for my first coffee

So just curious, how did the laws get there? How is it that we live in a Universe that not only allows for us to exist, but which allows for us to be intelligent enough to try and understand it?

The simple fact of the matter is that Science may never be able to explain why we are here at all (Oh sure, it can explain how we got here… but perhaps it may never explain why there was a Big Bang.).

–
Bill

 

[mchale]

I do love him and find lots of joy in him. But, he’s going to get older and start to ask questions. We read a lot on Downs Syndrome…one girl we read about once said to her mom in a flurry of tears: “Mommy, I hate being Downs Syndrome” totally justified, of course….I can’t think that if my son tells me that, to tell him that god did it to him. If I did tell him that, I wouldn’t blame him if he had some serious issues with this god person. Why do we need to inject god into things that just happen.
Sure it’s unfortunate, and yes, it’s terrible, and yes I’ll definitely have to have a talk with him at some stage as to why…but explaining things biologically and rationally goes a lot further than putting it all on some unseen reason of some unseen god when we can’t explain things, or don’t want to face the facts.

I can’t help but think that almost everyone hates their condition in life at some point in time. I certainly hate the fact that I can’t play Basketball like Michael Jordan, Baseball like Babe Ruth and soccer like Pele. I also hate that I have to struggle with my weight, that a woman I loved died all too soon and the thousand other crosses, small and large that I carry in my life.

While it might seem easy for me to embrace that all of these crosses (as well as the many gifts I also have) have no meaning other than the blind chance of Natural Law, there is a part of me that just can’t make that leap. I got a hunch, deep in side of me that there is more to this whole thing than mere chance.

I have learned from my crosses… I have learned to love, to be humble, to be grateful to others. I have learned to both give compassion and to receive it with what I hope is humility.

–
Bill

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I can’t help but think that almost everyone hates their condition in life at some point in time. I certainly hate the fact that I can’t play Basketball like Michael Jordan, Baseball like Babe Ruth and soccer like Pele. I also hate that I have to struggle with my weight, that a woman I loved died all too soon and the thousand other crosses, small and large that I carry in my life.

While it might seem easy for me to embrace that all of these crosses (as well as the many gifts I also have) have no meaning other than the blind chance of Natural Law, there is a part of me that just can’t make that leap. I got a hunch, deep in side of me that there is more to this whole thing than mere chance.

I have learned from my crosses… I have learned to love, to be humble, to be grateful to others. I have learned to both give compassion and to receive it with what I hope is humility.

–
Bill

Hello McHale, Well said and some day when you stand before the Master Jesus He will say well done my faithful servant come unto my father who has prepared a place for you, to life everlasting, because of your compassion, love, and humility,and faith, you will enter in to His rest. Love of Christ(“Greater is He who is in me : then he that is in the world”)

Nancy

 

[christian1]

Part 1

**To Penetant Man you said: **
Like

1. Why were the whole human race punished for their first mistake?

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Perhaps you are coming at it from the wrong side. Your view of punishment automatically assumes anger. Do you not remember, the consequences were spelt out to His children? It was cause and effect from that point on. A law set in motion.

You said: Not only were there no second chances, there was severe punishment for their first mistake.

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You could well have said instead, that it happened exactly as God said it would. Once the knowledge of good and evil was obtained, there was no unobtaining it. The next phase of the plan for mankind began. Or did you not realize, that God considered they may disobey seeing as He intentionally gave them a freewill to make the choice to follow Him or not. Which is why the plan of salvation was put in place since the foundation of the world.

you said: Not only in their immediate physical world, i.e. being banished, having to bear children through pain, working for food, pain, suffering and death, but their descendants were also punished for their sins, and not just to the 10th generation, still to this day.

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Did you forget he offered a means to be protected by Him even though they had separated themselves from Him?

Did you think that He wasn’t grieved by their decision to disobey? Like you would be had you said to your child, “if you eat the berries from that tree, you will get sick and die” This is the equivelant of what happened. It wasn’t a punishment as you are thinking, but a reaping and sowing, a cause and effect. Should the child blame the parent for his sickness when he disobeyed the rule that was given to protect him? No, he wouldn’t. Instead they would be ashamed, which is what they were.

Would you abandon your child because they disobeyed? No you wouldn’t and neither did God. Instead, he began the steps for their salvation, which would include sacrificing Himself to get them back. How can you call Him unloving and uncaring in the light of this knowledge?

you said:
2) Why would God do that? Why would he create something, when he knows that they are going to fail.

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Who are you to say that He knew they would fail. Simply because He had a plan in place does not indicate He knew they would fail, but that the possibility existed. There are numerous times in scripture that indicate that God didn’t know certain things. People may have a problem with this, but I can only point to the scriptures as my proof. Some of the things that people did never entered God’s mind, the bible said. God came down from Heaven in one instance to ‘see for Himself if Sodom and Gamorah were as bad as the prayers that reached His ears’ It is through the administration of His angels that His eyes see all and His ears hear all. But the fact that He came to see the Tower of Babel and to see proof of Sodom and Gomorah should give us insight to God. The fact that angels carry the prayers to God and carry the answer back tells us a great deal about how things operate.

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you said:

I understand free will and all, but go back one step further, why would he even begin creating us if he knows his first two subjects will err on their first trial, and then not only punish them but all human life on earth.

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You cannot prove that He knew they would fall. They were tested and He lovingly had a plan in place in case they failed. Where is the crime in that?

you said:
3) Why did God not stay his hand? He must have seen that the result of the mistake will bring, what hardships will lie in wait for even the tiniest of innocent baby.

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Because He was a grown man with a free will. The only rule man had to follow was that one rule. God will not force us to obey. It has to be chosen. Eve chose to believe the devil over God. Adam chose to disobey God for his wife. And God gets the blame. Go figure.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

That’s so true people treat God like he did the sinning and He was the reason we suffer and die, but the two in the garden had the choice and we get the shaft, so to speak. But He did send a way for us to be redeemed, Jesus the Messiah! Yashuma Homashaya! I thank God for His great plan of redemption,for without that we would all be lost, condemned,and doomed for ever! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[christian1]

Part 2

To Penitant man

you said:
I saw a blind child the other day and I almost cried right there on the spot. What did that child do to deserve that? And don’t tell me that something good will come of it. That may be the case in some instances, but countless people and innocent children suffer without any good coming from it.

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And how could you possibly know this? Did you know that God has always wanted to protect His people and did in the old testament even after the fall? No disease, no deformities, no form of harm befell His people when they remained faithful to Him. It wasn’t an arrogance trip, it was a means of protection. You see the law as a means to punishment, God sees it as a means of protection from sin and all that comes with it. The consequences of breaking the law were not a form of punishment but a natural consequence brought about from laws set in place at the foundation of the world. The laws existed when man came along and always will. Their consequences don’t change and God tried to protect them from the affects of breaking them but they wouldn’t listen. He allowed them to feel its affect so that they could learn from their mistakes. But time and time again they failed to heed His warnings He always gave beforehand. Don’t say He never gave chances. Read the old testament carefully and you will walk away wondering how God could put up with such stubborn, stiff necked people as He did. But His long suffering has its end. Those who are born into a sin ridden world and carry the mark of these sins can be consolated by this:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This has been the case from the very beginning. After the first two fell and passed sin to their children like a plague it came. But the offer of salvation was still available even from that point on. You can see with Cain and Abel that a means of His protection was offered and was refused by Cain. God warned Him what was going on and Cain refused to listen. Cain suffered the consequence of his sin and so did righteous Abel. Abel suffered the physical consequence of Cains sin but inherited paradise. Cain suffered both physical and spiritual consequence and still God held out a means of repentance even to His wicked son. You call this cruel and unfair? The only time I see God unfair, is when He is more gracious than we deserve and more patient than we can count and more forgiving than we can imagine. You, sir, have committed a great sin with your slander and unless you repent, you, and all who you claim to love, will suffer the consequences of your arrogant ignorance. Not because God wishes it, but because the devil loves to cause suffering as the scriptures so plainly point out and like an infectious disease, by law, as the head of your household, he will enter to devour. When you turn your back on God, you serve the devil and reap the benifits of his dominion. Suffering, pain, death. Enjoy your masters gifts.

you said:
I have a child with Downs Syndrome…I see how he suffers. I see how his mom suffers and I know the pity I feel for him. I love him so much and if I had even the tiniest of supernatural power, I’d fix him right there. What loving father wouldn’t?? I want to ask why…but spending 5 minutes pondering this, just points to the fact that there probably isn’t a god because a loving father wouldn’t do this.

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“My people perish for their lack of knowledge” What you don’t know, not only can hurt you, but can kill you. Ignorance kills in many many ways. Sometimes its effects are immediately discernable, other times, like a cancer, they slowly erode a persons soul. Either way, the end is the same. You look at down syndrome and see a cruel God. I look and see a cruel devil. I see a God that wants to protect and heal His people, but because you don’t see it, God must be a liar. Perhaps it is your eyes that are darkened by pain and sin that do not allow you to see God as He truly is. I had all of the same questions that you had. When you seek God with anger and doubt, your vision will be darkened by it. But when you seek answers about God holding to the belief that He is good and just, then your eyes will find the truth about Him in His word.

 

[christian1]

Part 3

To Penetint man

you said:

It most certainly doesn’t sound like the merciful and loving god we hear about does it? And if we do decide to believe in him, why would you want to, seeing that he did all this, knowing how many would suffer and still went ahead?

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I hope by now, you will see the foolishness of your heart and thoughts. You are severely misinformed about God and should repent quickly and beg for His forgiveness and mercy. Right now, you willingly give yourself to Satans lies, the great slanderer, and those around you will reap that benefit, thanks to your decision to serve the one who started all the trouble to begin with. You can go to bed at night and know that your thoughts about God are the fuel that hell burns by.

And if you believed in healing, you could repent, and your son could be healed. But that sort of faith is hard to come by in these latter times. But not because God cannot do it, but because we have so far removed ourselves from the possibility and dare not believe it. Christ predicted such when He said:
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

you ended with:
As in my religious status, I’m an agnostic, but I tell ya one thing….if it turns out that there is a God, I have a bone to pick with him.

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If it turns out that you realize there is indeed a God while you still can, you can spend the rest of your days helping those who are fated to the destruction you once were. If it turns out that you realize there is a God after this alloted time of grace, know that whatever judgment you get, will be just and fair whether or not it adds up in your morally corrpted calculator or not.

Do yourself, and your loved ones a big favor dad, covering of the family…repent of your arrogance toward God and seek true understanding.

 

[tonyrey]

All good and rational questions, except for your statement that there is a god. Ockham’s razor would counter this perfectly. Why inject a god into an equation that functions perfectly well without it?

“O reason not the need! Our basest beggars
Are in the poorest thing superfluous.
Allow not nature more than nature needs,
Man’s life is as cheap as beast’s.” (King Lear)

The operative word here is “superfluous”. One stroke of Ockham’s razor is certainly enough to dispose of truth, goodness, love, justice, beauty and human rights. Your physical equation functions perfectly well without God but it is purposeless, valueless and… (as Steven Weinberg remarked)… pointless. I bet if somebody infringed your rights you would be the first to complain, if somebody said you’re worthless you would punch him on the nose and if somebody said you don’t love your child he would probably finish up in hospital!

*Actually, the only “documented evidence” is that 66 people no longer have the afflictions they have before. How many pilgrims go to Lourdes per year? “An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860” (Quote from Wikipedia.)
*

The official rate indicates the stringency of the criteria and does not reflect the true statistics. Not only that. You have distorted the facts because the vast majority of Lourdes pilgrims don’t go there because they are sick. (Although no doubt you despise their credulity and regard them as mentally sick ) “not even Lourdes is evidence” is a curious statement for a sceptic to make. You pour scorn on documented evidence you haven’t even examined because your mind is closed to the possibility of any event that cannot be explained scientifically. You take refuge in the atheist’s standard argument from ignorance and your touching faith in the power of science to explain everything… eventually.

"

*Many answers to prayer? No sir…rather many times, life turns out in the exact condition we hoped it would…it’s chance, not prayers."
*

You attribute everything to chance and regard it as more powerful than intelligence (because it is your explanation of the origin of life, evolution and… intelligence) but I bet in your daily life you don’t leave your decisions to chance. You rely on the very power you regard as a freak of nature!

This is putting the carriage in front of the horse. The reasoning is back to front. It’s like reasoning why god is not active in a world that says that he is still there….face it, he’s just not there. Nature operates by its set of laws just fine, without the requirement for god.

“Methinks he pleadeth too much”. You are repeating yourself, perhaps trying to convince yourself as well as others. Do you really worship at the shrine of the omnipotent, ruthless, blind Goddess who senselessly and wantonly creates, tortures and destroys every form of life? If so it would be more consistent to adopt that approach in your daily life (provided you can avoid being detected ).

Very often what is omitted by a person is more significant than anything else. You have failed to answer the questions:

Why do we believe in justice when we surrounded by injustice? Why do we believe goodness and love are superior to evil and hatred in such a harsh, indifferent world? Are we crazy? Or do we know intuitively that justice, goodness and love are not invented by man but come from God? (I would add “Where else?”)

 

[PennitentMan]

Ah, a hardball poster! Here we go:

First, you contradict yourself:

You could well have said instead, that it happened exactly as God said it would

As opposed to

Who are you to say that He knew they would fail.

And then later

You cannot prove that He knew they would fall.

If you believe in the Christian god you have to believe that he is an all-powerful, all-knowing deity.

Like you would be had you said to your child, “if you eat the berries from that tree, you will get sick and die” This is the equivelant of what happened. It wasn’t a punishment as you are thinking, but a reaping and sowing, a cause and effect. Should the child blame the parent for his sickness when he disobeyed the rule that was given to protect him? No, he wouldn’t.

Actually, your example is flawed. You need to follow it through more…the child eats, not only dies, but his soul get’s put in eternal peril and so does the rest of his offspring. The child cannot blame the illness on the parent, and I have never claimed that they should, but the great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandchild can blame the punisher if he suffers needlessly through someone’s faults that he never even knew, just because he is a descendent of that person.

You, sir, have committed a great sin with your slander and unless you repent, you, and all who you claim to love, will suffer the consequences of your arrogant ignorance.

He he, I gotta flag this one….How you arrive at this conclusion…how do you know that all whom I claim to love will suffer with me? Is it because the bible says so, and it shows true in your theology that the children suffer for the parent’s mistakes? (as in adam and eve)
Or alternatively, you could be wrong, also because the bible says (and your theology teaches) that if people who hasn’t heard the word of god dies, they still have a chance at heaven.

There’s a bit of an inconsistency there, no?

And how could you possibly know this? Did you know that God has always wanted to protect His people and did in the old testament even after the fall? No disease, no deformities, no form of harm befell His people when they remained faithful to Him.

So, what you are saying is that all isrealites and by extension all faithful Christians are free from disease and deformities? I’d say check your facts.

When you turn your back on God, you serve the devil and reap the benifits of his dominion. Suffering, pain, death. Enjoy your masters gifts.

Ummm, last time I checked Christians also partake in suffering pain and death…the only difference is they believe they will wake up in happy-land…so says your theology.

Perhaps it is your eyes that are darkened by pain and sin that do not allow you to see God as He truly is. I had all of the same questions that you had. When you seek God with anger and doubt, your vision will be darkened by it. But when you seek answers about God holding to the belief that He is good and just, then your eyes will find the truth about Him in His word.

I was VERY MUCH a faithful catholic for a long time struggling with some events in my life. The events themselves didn’t turn me against god, but it was the catalyst for me to seek a closer relationship with him…in my seeking and studying it became clearer that he wasn’t there. I’m saying this to let you know that I did it all right, followed all the rules, had a pious and righteous heart (It may sound arrogant, but nonetheless, I’m making a point).
But what you are saying here is that you have to have a pre-conceived mindset before you can see or interact with god…not a very objective sort of religion…

I hope by now, you will see the foolishness of your heart and thoughts.

Umm, nope, not yet.

You are severely misinformed about God and should repent quickly and beg for His forgiveness and mercy. Right now, you willingly give yourself to Satans lies, the great slanderer, and those around you will reap that benefit, thanks to your decision to serve the one who started all the trouble to begin with. You can go to bed at night and know that your thoughts about God are the fuel that hell burns by.

Wow, that was quite intense  I’m tempted to be sarcastic about some satanic ritual participation after work, but essentially I’m not a Satanist, but I understand that in your theology by default if you don’t serve god you serve satan…sure you can see it that way if you wanna…

And if you believed in healing, you could repent, and your son could be healed. But that sort of faith is hard to come by in these latter times. But not because God cannot do it, but because we have so far removed ourselves from the possibility and dare not believe it.

Now this is the absolute biggest bull I have heard…with the nice little “loophole” at the end there….because of our lack of faith…Uhu….how about some church bishops, or the pope himself…do they have lack of faith? If they have that kind of lack of faith, then the church is in serious trouble…and they haven’t cures nuffn…Autism? Downs? Cancer? Amputees? Even Dyslexia. They ain’t curing ****. That actually got my back up a bit. Do you have enough faith for this? Nope…does anyone anywhere on the planet have enough faith for this? Nope. I challenge you to prove your statement above on this. Like the old atheist favorite, “pray and cure an amputee”. Let’s see that. “If you believe in healings” you said….like the 200million devoted, pious visitors to Lourdes believes in healing? Load of ****!

Do yourself, and your loved ones a big favor dad, covering of the family…repent of your arrogance toward God and seek true understanding.

I already did them a favour and sought, and found true understanding. So it’s all good.