Why God allows the evil of the HHS mandate

[Stephen168]

Whatever benefits the employee gets, the employee pays for it too. It’s not like the employer pays it all.

I qualified by statement with “If your insurance is a benefit” because by definition an employee does not pay for it. If you pay for it you are not benefitting. Your employer is being forced to pay for birth control ‘if it is a benefit’. If your employer provides $500 worth of health care and you pay $200; your benefit is $300. If the employer has to cover birth control at $18 a month, the employer will be providing $518 worth of health care. Your rate is $200 and your benefit is $318. You employer is paying $18 a month to provide birth control. The mandate forbids a co-pay because birth control is cheaper than most co-pays and the goal is FREE birth control.
Of course this is just an example, my wife only pays about 20% of the health care value she receives, which is up from zero 10 years ago. I pay about 4% of the value.

ABCs is a component of women’s healthcare services and is healthcare. It would be immoral of me to use them, per the teachings of the Church. It is not immoral for a noncatholic to take advantage of these benefits according to the teachings of their religion. Most married people can use ABCs with limitations and guidance according to the teachings of their religion.

Pork sandwiches are neither healthcare products, nor immoral…nor are they included in the healthcare mandate.

Health care is maintaining or repairing the body to operate as designed. Birth control does just the opposite; it makes the body NOT operate as designed; a key reason why they are immoral. Only in the world of gender feminism does birth control and abortion equal health care. Pork Sandwiches are not health care and immoral to Muslims.
It is also not insurance because there is no risk shifting; it is the same about every month, the cost is known. The government is forcing a cost shift form the employee to the employer. My daughter-in-law gets massages as a benefit from her employer and the funds are managed by the insurance company, but that benefit is not insurance.
Now that you understand that birth control and pork sandwiches are not health care or insurance you can answer my question: Do you think it is wrong that the insurance company must provide a product like ABC/pork sandwiches/movie tickets/automobiles that are not health care or insurance?

 

[Stephen168]

It’s hard to take someone seriously who makes false claims that ABC is not healthcare because it is, and that’s the way it is.

Yes that is the gender feminist definition of health care. A definition less than 15 years old.

 

[Rence]

I qualified by statement with “If your insurance is a benefit” because by definition an employee does not pay for it. If you pay for it you are not benefitting.

Of course you benefit from insurance if you pay for it. I’ve aways paid for a portion, usually half, of my premiums. The fact that group insurance is significantly less than individual insurance is a great benefit in itself. Group insurance is much more affordable because of the network power it has.

Do you think it is wrong that the insurance company must provide a product like ABC?

If an item is a component of healthcare, such as ABCs, no I don’t think it’s wrong. It would be wrong of a Catholic to use those benefits, per the teachings of the Church. But I certainly don’t think it would be wrong for someone such as a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, or a non-Catholic Christian woman, would take advantage of their ABCs benefit according to, and by the guidance, of their religion.

I’m afraid neither individuals, nor religious groups, get to decide what is and what is not healthcare. Those in the healthcare industry and government get to decide that.

 

[Rence]

Yes that is the gender feminist definition of health care. A definition less than 15 years old.

It’s not just gender feminists. And of course the definition would change over time. Healthcare is bound to evolve with time and research.

 

[iloveangels]

Of course you benefit from insurance if you pay for it. I’ve aways paid for a portion, usually half, of my premiums. The fact that group insurance is significantly less than individual insurance is a great benefit in itself. Group insurance is much more affordable because of the network power it has.

If an item is a component of healthcare, such as ABCs, no I don’t think it’s wrong. It would be wrong of a Catholic to use those benefits, per the teachings of the Church. But I certainly don’t think it would be wrong for someone such as a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, or a non-Catholic Christian woman, would take advantage of their ABCs benefit according to, and by the guidance, of their religion.

I’m afraid neither individuals, nor religious groups, get to decide what is and what is not healthcare. Those in the healthcare industry and government get to decide that.

Rence, in a non-Catholic hospital it wouldn’t be as much of a religious issue. The problem is that in a religious setting, you can’t preach that something is wrong, and then procure that something for your employees. It’s a direct contradiction, a wrong-doing, a glaring error.

Now the Catholic hospital where you work(ed), may not visualize itself as a religious setting. This is all the more reason that the Church has to get rid of such things. We are not supposed to be in the business of either:
a) doing services for the sake of doing services, OR
b) raking in beaucoup bucks over dead bodies just because we could.
It’s WRONG.

I don’t think that’s what anyone in authority has been trying to do, but the situation has become that in some places. We can’t do this. We can’t be part of it.

 

[Rence]

It’s not healthcare. It’s something you can buy, like a flea collar or a botox job or pierced ears, only more expensive and worse for you. The World Health Organization has classified oral contraceptives as a Class I Carcinogen. Did you know that? You can look it up.

Yes, ABCs is healthcare. Denying it is just silly

All medications come with risks and benefits. Even blood pressure, stomach ulcer and diabetic medications come with risks. When deciding to take any medication, one has to weigh the risk and the benefits.

It doesn’t matter. We’re not in competition when it comes to offering those services, solely for the sake of the services, or or the $$$$$ we can haul in for those services. We do charity for another reason. We’re a RELIGION.

Hospitals are not “religions” even though they may be religious based. It matters to the hospital administrators who are trying to pull a team together and offer comprehensive services and compete with other entities. Like it or not, all entities are businesses that have to meet the bottom line. Physicians are extremely important entities within a hospital, and acquiring the best is what hospitals need to do. That means searching outside the realm of Catholics. Again, I couldn’t care any less than I do now about any hospital limiting their employees to a certain type of employee beause they’re only hurting themselves. I don’t have a problem with them doing so…but they’re not going to, for very obvious reasons.

 

[Rence]

Rence, in a non-Catholic hospital it wouldn’t be as much of a religious issue. The problem is that in a religious setting, you can’t preach that something is wrong, and then procure that something for your employees. It’s a direct contradiction, a wrong-doing, a glaring error. .

It would be a religous issue if the hospital in question would only hire and serve Catholics. When you serve the public and utilize all kinds of people as employees, it’s different. You can’t claim to be a solely religious entity if you employ everyone and serve everyone. A hospital is not a Church.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, ABCs is healthcare. Denying it is just silly

Birth control is to women as flea collars are to dogs, in the view of the general population, and you know it. To deny that is silly.

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it is.

All medications come with risks and benefits. Even blood pressure, stomach ulcer and diabetic medications come with risks. When deciding to take any medication, one has to weigh the risk and the benefits.

Yeah, but most of them aren’t CLASS I CARCINOGENS administered daily to the same patient for decades.

Hospitals are not “religions” even though they may be religious based. It matters to the hospital administrators who are trying to pull a team together and offer comprehensive services and compete with other entities. Like it or not, all entities are businesses that have to meet the bottom line. Physicians are extremely important entities within a hospital, and acquiring the best is what hospitals need to do. That means searching outside the realm of Catholics. Again, I couldn’t care any less than I do now about any hospital limiting their employees to a certain type of employee beause they’re only hurting themselves. I don’t have a problem with them doing so…but they’re not going to, for very obvious reasons.

Then, they have outlived their usefulness as apostolates and we should get rid of them.

 

[Rence]

Birth control is to women as flea collars are to dogs, in the view of the general population, and you know it. To deny that is silly.

Well, okay, if you live out in the country and in the woods like I do, I can concede that flea and tick medications are indeed medications, and pretty essential ones, to dogs. But ABCs are still a big component of women’s healthcare. Doctors recognize it, nurses recognize it, the insurance companies recognize it, the goverment recognizes it, and therefore, those who run the healthcare industry decide what is and what is not healthcare.

Yeah, but most of them aren’t CLASS I CARCINOGENS administered daily to the same patient for decades.

They come with their own list of risks, and are administered daily to the same patient for decades until they start to feel the side effects and get switched to something else, if they can be swiched to something else.

Then, they have outlived their usefulness as apostolates and we should get rid of them.

Ok. Then get rid of them.

 

[iloveangels]

Well, okay, if you live out in the country and in the woods like I do, I can concede that flea and tick medications are indeed medications, and pretty essential ones, to dogs. But ABCs are still a big component of women’s healthcare. Doctors recognize it, nurses recognize it, the insurance companies recognize it, the goverment recognizes it, and therefore, those who run the healthcare industry decide what is and what is not healthcare.

It’s a buzzword, a promotional or advertising word to sell a product. I will grant you that.
I find it funny that you agree with my analogy because that is exactly how the general population views birth control–like flea collars on dogs. Increasingly, they view abortion that way too. One wonders how long it will be til they view hit men that way too.

They come with their own list of risks, and are administered daily to the same patient for decades until they start to feel the side effects and get switched to something else, if they can be swiched to something else.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. It’s still a CLASS I CARCINOGEN administered daily.

Ok. Then get rid of them.

Rence, If I could disaffilate the Church completely from the ones that defy Catholic teaching, I would. I think that’s what we’d ought to do, specifically because many of them quite defiantly no longer behave like Catholic entities. And if Obamacare makes this happen with respect to those disobedient institutions, then it won’t have been all bad.

 

[Stephen168]

And I’ve never said that every woman has a right to free birth control and abortion. Where did I say that women have a aright to free birth contrl and abortion?

Post #86, #108, #141

 

[Rence]

Post #86, #108, #141

I wonder if you read those posts.

 

[Stephen168]

Soooo, I have a great benefits package that I like and I’m glad that because of the new mandate other people will too?

I don’t use all the benefits in the package I have, and I don’t get to whine and complain about it or try to have my part of the package reduced in payment because I don’t use all of the benefits in the package.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Cardinal Burke agrees with an inteviewer that abiding with the HHS mandate is cooperating with sin and that it is materal cooperation and formal cooperation

lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-cardinal-if-catholic-employers-provide-contraceptive-coverage-1

Thomas McKenna: “So a Catholic employer, really getting down to it, he does not, or she does not provide this because that way they would be, in a sense, cooperating with the sin…the sin of contraception or the sin of providing a contraceptive that would abort a child, is this correct?”

Cardinal Burke: “This is correct. It is not only a matter of what we call “material cooperation” in the sense that the employer by giving this insurance benefit is materially providing for the contraception but it is also “formal cooperation” because he is knowingly and deliberately doing this, making this available to people. There is no way to justify it. It is simply wrong.”

 

[iloveangels]

Cardinal Burke agrees with an inteviewer that abiding with the HHS mandate is cooperating with sin and that it is materal cooperation and formal cooperation

lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-cardinal-if-catholic-employers-provide-contraceptive-coverage-1

Who are these people he’s speaking about though? Are they:
a) private business owners?
b) the people in his diocesan structure?
c) the people who work in “Catholic” universities and hospitals?

 

[Rence]

Originally Posted by Rence
Soooo, I have a great benefits package that I like and I’m glad that because of the new mandate other people will too?

Yeah…that only shows that what I said was very different from what you said I said.

 

[iloveangels]

Yeah…that only shows that what I said was very different from what you said I said.

Rence, we’re not talking about whether you take full advantage of the insurance plan that you have or not. What’s of interest here is what was in the insurance plan you described, given where you said you worked.

 

[Bill_7154]

I believe that God is allowing the evil of the HHS mandate because the Church in America hasn’t suffered enough. We Catholics in America are for the most part fat and lazy when it comes to the faith. We complain that Mass is boring. Well, when the government starts confiscating all Church assets including our parish buildings, schools, hospitals, and cathedrals, and people who try to prevent it get arrested, and when we are all labeled as bigots and have to celebrate Mass perhaps secretly at someone’s private home we won’t be able to say that Mass is boring. We will be getting our wish, a Mass that isn’t boring. I think this will lead to many Catholics rising to the occasion and becoming heroes of the faith.

Are you under the impression that God is supposed to intefere in hunmans affairs whenever the outcome could be/will be negative?

Peace,
Bill

 

[JimG]

Are you under the impression that God is supposed to intefere in hunmans affairs whenever the outcome could be/will be negative?

Peace,
Bill

I can’t answer for livingworldunity, but I don’t think that was the intent of the post. I saw it more as a statement that the U.S. Chuch was so complacent as to allow evil to flourish, and when evil flourishes, bad consequences are bound to result. And those consequences lead to suffering, which can lead us back to repentance and a return to sanity.

I’m not sure I agree that God is purposely allowing it for that reason. Rather I think that bad decisions generate their own bad consequences. I don’t blame God at all for the bad decisions of man.

 

[Bill_7154]

I can’t answer for livingworldunity, but I don’t think that was the intent of the post. I saw it more as a statement that the U.S. Chuch was so complacent as to allow evil to flourish, and when evil flourishes, bad consequences are bound to result. And those consequences lead to suffering, which can lead us back to repentance and a return to sanity.

I’m not sure I agree that God is purposely allowing it for that reason. Rather I think that bad decisions generate their own bad consequences. I don’t blame God at all for the bad decisions of man.

When replying I was looking at the title to be honest. But when reading your post I would have to say that gov’t does those things…