Why God didn't desire a universe without evil?

[reggieM]

Right. But that’s not what anyone means when they say “the idea of evil.” The “idea of evil” means that you can conceive the idea of evil actions, in the same way that you can conceive the idea of flying like superman.
Yes, having malicious thoughts are examples of actual evil actions.
No, being able to conceive the idea of having malicious thoughts does not mean that you’ve actually had malicious thoughts.

I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but yes, the idea of evil is not the same as willing something evil. God can possess the idea of a contingent, “less good” universe because He creates the parameters for that universe.
But again, we use the term “good” in reference to an ultimate standard which is the perfection of God.
The fact that that something is “less good” does not mean it is “not good”.

We can say what we believe to be the ultimate good and ultimate perfection, at least as we extend our ideas from what is good to what is better to what is Anselm’s definition of God -*** a being than which none greater can be conceived,***

I don’t think we can do the same with evil - to reach an ultimate evil where there is no good in it at all.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I’m not sure where you’re going with this

I’m not going anywhere, I’m answering Vico’s objections, which started here:

Someone only has free will in a universe with both moral evil and moral good. Heaven is an infinite good result, and Hell and infinite bad result, so having free will can result in either. God does will that humans and angels can have free will to choose either result, but there is not one without the other.

 

[reggieM]

So… you’re retracting your first objection? In order to raise the objection “A thing that is contingent on some other non-necessary thing” you must have thought that the universe was contingent on some other non-necessary thing. But now you’re admitting that the universe is not contingent on some other non-necessary thing?

I’m sorry I’m not following that.
The act of creation is an action that creates contingency.
A created universe is contingent. If it is contingent on a non-necessary thing, then it is not necessary.
If it is contingent on a necessary thing, then it is not necessary.

A god that is driven for some reason to require a certain created output, cannot be a non-contingent being, and therefore cannot be necessary being it itself (it relies on something else to determine its behavior).

 

[reggieM]

I’m not going anywhere, I’m answering Vico’s objections, which started here:

Ok sorry, I didn’t read that part of the conversation before replying.

 

[Vico]

Right. But that’s not what anyone means when they say “the idea of evil.” The “idea of evil” means that you can conceive the idea of evil actions, in the same way that you can conceive the idea of flying like superman.
Yes, having malicious thoughts are examples of actual evil actions.
No, being able to conceive the idea of having malicious thoughts does not mean that you’ve actually had malicious thoughts.

One usage of evil is as a noun and the other is as a verb. So do you want to restrict to the verbal sense of evil rather than the nominal sense of evil?

I believe that reality is based in the ideas of the divine mind so our sensible particulars are modeled by the divine ideas. We form universal concepts of them to resemble the divine ideas.

For Plato, universals exist independently of particulars. Do you want to consider existence of a universe using just particulars but without regard for the universals?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I’m sorry I’m not following that.
The act of creation is an action that creates contingency.
A created universe is contingent. If it is contingent on a non-necessary thing, then it is not necessary.
If it is contingent on a necessary thing, then it is not necessary.

The act of creation does not “create” contingency. Either the act is contingent (e.g. on what God decides to create) or it is necessary (e.g. God’s necessary nature always causes him to do the same act and create the same thing.)

If the act of creation is necessary, then so is what is created.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

One usage of evil is as a noun and the other is as a verb. So do you want to restrict to the verbal sense of evil rather than the nominal sense of evil?

I believe that reality is based in the ideas of the divine mind so our sensible particulars are modeled by the divine ideas. We form universal concepts of them to resemble the divine ideas.

For Plato, universals exist independently of particulars. Do you want to consider existence of a universe using just particulars but without regard for the universals?

You tell me. You’re the one who asserted that evil (of an unspecified sense) existed in the universe so long as the idea of evil (of an unspecified sense) existed.

 

[reggieM]

The act of creation does not “create” contingency.

Whatever is created is contingent on that which created it.

Either the act is contingent (e.g. on what God decides to create) or it is necessary (e.g. God’s necessary nature always causes him to do the same act and create the same thing.)

If the act of creation is necessary, then so is what is created.

If God is creating something, then the thing did not exist at one time, but came into existence at another time. So, given that, we cannot say the thing is necessary (since it did not exist eternally).

You could say, perhaps, “the concept of goodness is a necessary thing since it is necessarily an attribute of God”.

But we would say that only as a manner of speaking. Goodness is not a **part **of God (God has no parts). We call it an “attribute” as if separate thing, but God actually is, in Being, Goodness in perfection.

Beyond that, it wouldn’t line up with your analogy because goodness is not created by God.

 

[Vico]

You tell me. You’re the one who asserted that evil (of an unspecified sense) existed in the universe so long as the idea of evil (of an unspecified sense) existed.

Since you leave it to me, then yes the idea of moral good and evil exist first, and a rational creature may have the idea of moral good and evil. Then the will may commit evil (or omit good).

 

[goout]

You are the one who has made errors regarding Catholic teaching on God (i.e. by asserting that God is free to not love.) …

Quote the post please.
I never said that.

Can you just address my observation that love only exists in freedom? Let’s stick to the point without all the obfuscations.
You don’t accept that God is love, and love only exists in freedom. You seem to think that God would force people to do only good things, and that if he doesn’t force good actions he can’t be loving.

If you look around as a sentient and reasoned human being, you might find your idea to be false.

can you just address the point, or not…

 

[tonyrey]

Quote the post please.
I never said that.

Can you just address my observation that love only exists in freedom? Let’s stick to the point without all the obfuscations.
You don’t accept that God is love, and love only exists in freedom. You seem to think that God would force people to do only good things, and that if he doesn’t force good actions he can’t be loving.

If you look around as a sentient and reasoned human being, you might find your idea to be false.

Irrefutable! Hence no reply…

 

[bibcat]

The number of possible universe, what it could be if we have done so and so, is infinite.
This means that universes without evil are possible. Why God didn’t desire a universe without evil?

Simple. God uses what we call evil to punish wrongdoers and wrongdoing. Nothing that happens to mankind is random. Nothing. Good things happen because God is happy with us. Bad things happen because God is unhappy with us. Take Hurricane Harvey for example. I’ve predicted since 2015, with the Supreme Court’s mandating the legality of same-sex “marriage” along with unbridled tolerance of all sorts of immoral behavior, that the USA was in line for some serious chastisement. Now it’s happening. First Harvey, devastating much of Texas, and provoking a calamitous rise in energy prices. Next is Hurricane Irma, heading for the east coast, and it’s at least a Cat4 storm. In addition you have the rise of North Korea as a nuclear power; the goal of that nation’s leadership is to destroy the United States with the use of nuclear weapons, so that its goal of domination of East Asia will be unimpeded. God has a history of using pagans and unbelievers to punish his people. The Babylon Captivity is the classic example of this. So things are bound to get worse before they get better.

 

[Lucretius]

Why did God desire a universe in the first place?

Christi pax.