Why God should need a messenger?

[Bahman]

This is what I mean when I say it is a limitation of our understanding. You’re imposing your own limitations upon God, within whom there exists no limitations. It’s natural to do this; we all do it. Because our understanding has limits upon it, we can only form ideas of something limitless that is confined within our own limitations.

You just does not want to accept the fact. There is a contradiction in what you accepted, you cannot be embedded into a body and be omnipresent at the same time.

 

[Bahman]

You cannot be omnipresent when you have a body.

Let’s call this Bahman’s First Rule of Omnipresence.

It is very simple to understand.

Bahman would know what omnipresence entails and what is possible for God because…

…

Well… okay… the “rule” is not really a rule, after all.

A “guess,” more like.

Well… alright… sheer ungrounded conjecture.

A “stab in the dark,” really.

This is not a guess but a simple fact. You cannot be embedded into a body and be omnipresent at the same time.

 

[Bahman]

God is God regardless of attributes.

Then everybody can claim that s/he is God. This is a philosophy forum and we need a definition God before we start a discussion about God.

 

[seagal]

I am not sure because it is like giving up his divinity since you cannot be omnipresent while you have a body, whether earthy or glorified.

As was already explained, Jesus did not give up his divinity. He took on the form of humanity. He had 2 (count 'em, two) natures.

You cannot by nature be omnipresent and has a body.

The church agrees. Jesus as man was finite in his body.

He of course had temporal and physical restriction otherwise he could not be crucified.

And this was the reason he became a mere human, so that he could offer himself as human sacrifice for us.

Because of simple reason, you cannot be omnipresent and embedded into a body at the same time.

Again, the church agrees. What you’re not getting is that he is still God. How that happens is a mystery because we don’t know the workings of God. Stubbornly repeating your assertion does nothing to advance this discussion. There are other proofs for Jesus’ divinity if you care to go into them.

 

[tifischer]

This is not a guess but a simple fact. You cannot be embedded into a body and be omnipresent at the same time.

Bahman, omnipresent by definition means present everywhere…not to exclude a body, so by definition omnipresent does include a body at the same time as everywhere else. If you were the all powerful almighty God, would you limit yourself?

 

[BChartowski]

You just does not want to accept the fact. There is a contradiction in what you accepted, you cannot be embedded into a body and be omnipresent at the same time.

There is no contradiction. Many folks here are trying to give you a better understanding of God and the nature of God, but you reject what is being shown to you while you continue trying to define Him in your own terms. I’d suggest you should do more research on the Holy Trinity; it’s all I can offer at this point.

 

[tifischer]

And this was the reason he became a mere human, so that he could offer himself as human sacrifice for us.

Not only this!

The crucifixion happened fallowed by the resurrection to show all the world that you cannot kill God. God defeats death and gives eternal life without fear. That was a big threat to the kings and emperor who used fear to control and oppress the people.

Also it was the sacrifice to end all sacrifice. No more animal sacrifice, Jesus did it all for us.

Another important point is that before this people were not forgiving, only God could forgive so one mistake and you would be shunned or stoned or kicked out of the town it was an eye for an eye. Now we are to forgive…really put a damper on the gladiator games too, thank God.

 

[Bahman]

As was already explained, Jesus did not give up his divinity. He took on the form of humanity. He had 2 (count 'em, two) natures.

Divinity means to be like God. God by definition is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. You cannot be God once you lose one of the above mentioned attributes.

The church agrees. Jesus as man was finite in his body.

Please read the previous comment.

And this was the reason he became a mere human, so that he could offer himself as human sacrifice for us.

Again you cannot die if you are divine since you are immortal. Human sacrifice does not make any sense to me for two reasons: 1) He is already in Heaven so what sacrifice?, 2) God simply could forgive us so we can go to Heaven after death.

Again, the church agrees. What you’re not getting is that he is still God. How that happens is a mystery because we don’t know the workings of God. Stubbornly repeating your assertion does nothing to advance this discussion. There are other proofs for Jesus’ divinity if you care to go into them.

Can you please offer one of the proof?

 

[Bahman]

Bahman, omnipresent by definition means present everywhere…not to exclude a body, so by definition omnipresent does include a body at the same time as everywhere else. If you were the all powerful almighty God, would you limit yourself?

Incarnation means to be embodied into a body.

 

[tifischer]

Incarnation means to be embodied into a body.

Without excluding being present elsewhere in the omnipresent definition. You may fill a boat with water in a bath tub and still have water in the bath…thus the water is embodied in the boat while still filling the tub.

 

[Bahman]

There is no contradiction. Many folks here are trying to give you a better understanding of God and the nature of God, but you reject what is being shown to you while you continue trying to define Him in your own terms. I’d suggest you should do more research on the Holy Trinity; it’s all I can offer at this point.

How do you define God and incarnation?

 

[Bahman]

Without excluding being present elsewhere in the omnipresent definition. You may fill a boat with water in a bath tub and still have water in the bath…thus the water is embodied in the boat while still filling the tub.

So how Jesus could be killed? Did he die?

 

[davidv]

So how Jesus could be killed? Did he die?

His soul was separated from His body because of the severe beating and crucifixion that He was subjected to.

Yes He died. But, He rose from the dead proving that He was God.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I’m not sure that it would be, necessarily. After all, Adam and Eve had free will, and were without sin or even the effects of sin. They saw God face to face, and yet were able to choose to commit sin.

I also don’t think God is purposely hiding Himself from us - I really think it is a matter of the fact that we simply are too darkened to be able to see Him for ourselves.

God sends a messenger for the same reasons we use different forms of communication for those who are blind and/or deaf. We have and will always have free will, even if we could perceive God directly. Moses could perceive God directly, yet retained his free will.

Agreed. Even the angels had free will. They had free will to choose to love God or to not love God. The ones that chose not to are now demons in Hell.

I’ve said numerous times in to others that even the most direct proof (Jesus’ second coming) won’t be enough for them to convert. It would be 100% irrefutable proof that God exists but they would still find a way to deny.

 

[tifischer]

So how Jesus could be killed? Did he die?

Have you never heard of someone who dies and comes back to life…their body is pronounced dead but are recessitated or the spirit is returned to give life to the body? A great example occurred just last winter in America when a boy fell through ice. The dr pronounced him dead. The mother was allowed to enter the room to see her son before they were to take him to the bag. The mother called to the Holy Spirit of God to give him life and the boy came back to life. The boy had been pronounced dead long enough that he would have otherwise suffered severe brain damage but their was no brain damage and fully recovered. This kind of miracle was unheard of before Jesus. Thanks be to God for miracles!

 

[tifischer]

In addition to my previous post…

Here’s the story I was referring to:
usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/inspiration-nation-mom-prays-son-back-to-life/22883985/

In addition to not being heard of before Him, Jesus’ resurrection is even more profound in that 1) He was pronounced dead for days (long enough that no Jew would have thought possible because decomposition was known to set in…to remind us that with God all things are possible) 2) Not even the Pharaohs could resurrect their body (who deemed themselves gods)…His resurrection surpassed even the power of the Pharaoh. There were a lot of questions about God vs gods and resurrection at this time. Jesus was unifying the people in the understanding that there is only one God who is the resurrection and who loves everyone and does not want animal sacrifice but to sacrifice for the good of others…Luke 3:11 In reply he said to them, “Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise.”

 

[Peter_Plato]

Because of simple reason, you cannot be omnipresent and embedded into a body at the same time.

Well, no actually. You or I cannot be “omnipresent and embedded into a body at the same time,” but that is because neither you nor I were omnipresent beings to begin with.

Whether an omnipresent being can be “omnipresent and embedded into a body” is an open question that only an omnipresent being can properly answer.

I would say that is beyond my pay grade, and beyond yours – unless you can demonstrate that you were once an omnipresent being now constrained within a body.

Is that the claim you wish to make?

 

[987mk]

1. The Catechism of the Church teaches that God’s grace is so bountiful that a baby who dies at birth will still go to heaven

**
The Catholic Church teaches no such thing.**

The Catholic Church hopes for their salvation, but does not promise it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[987mk]

God defeats death

God created death.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Again you cannot die if you are divine since you are immortal. Human sacrifice does not make any sense to me for two reasons: 1) He is already in Heaven so what sacrifice?, 2) God simply could forgive us so we can go to Heaven after death.

Yes, but the problem here is that God forgiving us does not entail we are thereby made worthy of, or merit, eternal existence. Something has to change about us – about the kind of beings we are. If we are autonomous beings capable of determining what we are, then somehow we must choose to be the kind of being that merits eternal life. God cannot choose that for us, we must choose it for ourselves. God by his mercy, forgiveness and grace can make it possible for us to do so, but the choice remains ours.