R
REESE_HOWELL
Guest
lack of education majority in my church do not know it is sin not to go to mass on sunday and holy days of obligation if they do not know this what else do they not know
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Sr_Sally
Guest
poor or non-existent catechesis
This is my choice for a reason. It has more to do with people not being taught and not realizing the importance than it does with not-so worderful liturgies. In fact, I think that if more laity realized the importance of Mass, the crazy things that went on in some litugies would probably never have happened.
This is my choice for a reason. It has more to do with people not being taught and not realizing the importance than it does with not-so worderful liturgies. In fact, I think that if more laity realized the importance of Mass, the crazy things that went on in some litugies would probably never have happened.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Those are excellent points. I think it is the combination of poor catechesis with various kinds of Protestant influence, in combination, that are contributing to the problem, because if you never hear that Sunday Mass attendance is mandatory, you would still come anyway, until you hear from your Protestant friend that only pharasaical legalists have to go to Church every Sunday - real Christians can worship God anywhere, even on the golf course or at the shopping mall.
C
Cat
Guest
A lot of people say that Catholics don’t realize that missing Mass is a mortal sin.
So would Mass attendance increase if each parish sent out a letter to all their families stating that missing Mass for no good reason is a mortal sin, and describing the reasoning behind this?
We occasionally get letters from our priest asking for a special donation for the new roof or inviting us to come to the special party for a retiring deacon or sister. Sometimes these letters contain information about changes in the Mass; e.g., when we all started standing during the “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands” prayer.
So it’s an idea, right? Would it work? Would Catholics say, “Ooh, I did not know that! I’m going to Mass from now on.”
Or would it be a disaster and cause people to leave the Church in droves?
Another idea would be to post this on the Church information board outside the Church (that little board where they put up Mass times, pithy sayings, etc.). Can you imagine driving by a church and seeing a sign that says, “Missing Mass on the Lord’s Day is a mortal sin. Come back to Mass.” Wow! That would make me pause.
So would Mass attendance increase if each parish sent out a letter to all their families stating that missing Mass for no good reason is a mortal sin, and describing the reasoning behind this?
We occasionally get letters from our priest asking for a special donation for the new roof or inviting us to come to the special party for a retiring deacon or sister. Sometimes these letters contain information about changes in the Mass; e.g., when we all started standing during the “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands” prayer.
So it’s an idea, right? Would it work? Would Catholics say, “Ooh, I did not know that! I’m going to Mass from now on.”
Or would it be a disaster and cause people to leave the Church in droves?
Another idea would be to post this on the Church information board outside the Church (that little board where they put up Mass times, pithy sayings, etc.). Can you imagine driving by a church and seeing a sign that says, “Missing Mass on the Lord’s Day is a mortal sin. Come back to Mass.” Wow! That would make me pause.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I think this could work if it were done in tandem with some other announcement about something that people might not be expected to know. For example, “Usually the Solemnity of [whatever] is considered a Holy Day of Obligation (a day when all Catholics are required to attend Mass and refrain from any unnecessary work), but because it falls on a Monday this year, the Diocese has waived the obligation, since it comes directly after Sunday, which would thus be two Holy Days of Obligation in a row, since of course as we all know, all Sundays are Holy Days of Obligation.”
Another approach would be to have an “Ask Father” question box, and “Little Katy, age seven” could ask, “What is a Holy Day of Obligation?” and “Father” could respond, "What a big word for a seven year old to spell and you got it right! Wow, you are so smart, Little Katy!! A Holy Day of Obligation is a day when Catholics are required to attend Mass and refrain from all unnecessary work. All Sundays of the year are Holy Days of Obligation, and here in Canada, January 1st and December 25th are also Holy Days of Obligation. That’s why your Mommy and Daddy always bring you to Mass on these days, Little Katy. (Right, Mommy and Daddy?
) "It would probably help.
But I suspect the reason most people don’t 'know’ that missing Mass is a mortal sin isn’t so much a lack of head knowledge as it is a lack of ‘heart knowledge’. At some level, people either don’t or won’t believe that the Catholic Church has authority given to Her by Christ. Since they don’t recognize the authority of the Church, they likewise don’t recognize the power of the Church to declare missing Mass sinful.
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Sarabande
Guest
I didn’t get to read all the posts, but here are some of my opinions on the subject. I believe there are many factors as to why Mass attendance has declined, which people have already expressed on here. I agree that a change in our culture, our priorities and what we believe in a society has contributed. The dumbing down of the liturgy, a loss of sacredness, mystery, holiness are part of it, although probably not the main reasons. Having very lax Bishops or priests not providing good, strong spiritual leadership can hurt a Catholic faith community. Also, I often hear people complain that they aren’t entertained enough at mass. They are bored. As a society, at least in the States, we are so used to having everything spoonfed to us. We also have so much info rapidly thrown at us, so when things seem “slow”, we’re bored. Many need to have a lot of external stimulation. They never learned how to quiet their minds and slow down. Sometimes, I think people are afraid to quiet themselves, but that is for a totally different thread.
When I speak to Catholic friends, family, acquaintances, etc. I’m finding that many of them or their own circle of friends, etc., either do not believe or have trouble believing in Transubstantiation. Somehow, the emphasis on this faith and the education on this began to dwindle and/or is lacking.
My older friends remember going into the church during recess to “visit Jesus” and the sisters would allow them to do this. The sisters, priests, parents, etc. emphasized the importance of this. They truly believed that he was there. My generation (1980s and 1990s) did not have an emphasis on this. We weren’t even allowed to go into the church if we had wanted to in the first place.
I think when that belief is compromised or lost, there isn’t a reason for attending mass, especially if they no longer believe that they are truly receiving Jesus in the form of bread or that He is truly there in the Tabernacle to visit, pray to and talk to.
When I speak to Catholic friends, family, acquaintances, etc. I’m finding that many of them or their own circle of friends, etc., either do not believe or have trouble believing in Transubstantiation. Somehow, the emphasis on this faith and the education on this began to dwindle and/or is lacking.
My older friends remember going into the church during recess to “visit Jesus” and the sisters would allow them to do this. The sisters, priests, parents, etc. emphasized the importance of this. They truly believed that he was there. My generation (1980s and 1990s) did not have an emphasis on this. We weren’t even allowed to go into the church if we had wanted to in the first place.
I think when that belief is compromised or lost, there isn’t a reason for attending mass, especially if they no longer believe that they are truly receiving Jesus in the form of bread or that He is truly there in the Tabernacle to visit, pray to and talk to.
C
Cat
Guest
I think Sarabande has brought up a very good, although discouraging point.
The U.S. is a culture of “spectators.”
We watch TV or movie. We read books. We watch sports. We go to concerts or plays. We even watch shows that demonstrate cooking! We spend so much of our lives seeking “entertainment.”
But we don’t know how to “entertain” ourselves. We need someone else to do it for us, while we just sit and watch.
When I was a kid, I WROTE stories and books! We made up our own plays and got the neighborhood kids involved. We played our own sports. We sang songs or in my case, I practiced piano. And we cooked our own meals.
We entertained ourselves.
Many years ago, I was on the verge of getting caught up in the Christian entertainment craze. Then a wise pastor (Protestant) told me, “Why don’t we just sing the songs ourselves instead of listening to someone else sing them for us? Isn’t it better to listen to someone in your own church, someone that you know, sing? You have no idea what kind of lives the professionals lead. They could be praising the Lord on stage, and getting drunk after the show.”
His words really made me think long and hard. I did an about-face on a lot of my views and decided to try to avoid any kind of church that was purely “spectator.”
That’s why the Mass is so cool! The Liturgy is “the work of the people.” People–that’s me!
But there are many, many people in the U.S. who avoid Mass because it isn’t “entertaining.” I think this is a very real reason, a very pathetic reason, why Mass attendance in the U.S. has declined.
Please allow me to add that I DON’T think the answer is to make Mass more entertaining! Yuck. There is NO WAY that any Mass is going to be as entertaining as a trip to Disney World, a Beyonce concert, or a night at the opera. We just can’t beat the world when it comes to entertainment. And that’s OK, because Mass isn’t supposed to be “entertainment.” It’s worship.
A lot of non-Catholic ecclesial communities have made or are still making the mistake of thinking that they can actually attract as many people as the local jazz nightclub or community theater or sporting event. It doesn’t work. God is not a big Ed Sullivan, waiting to give us a “really big shoe.”
The U.S. is a culture of “spectators.”
We watch TV or movie. We read books. We watch sports. We go to concerts or plays. We even watch shows that demonstrate cooking! We spend so much of our lives seeking “entertainment.”
But we don’t know how to “entertain” ourselves. We need someone else to do it for us, while we just sit and watch.
When I was a kid, I WROTE stories and books! We made up our own plays and got the neighborhood kids involved. We played our own sports. We sang songs or in my case, I practiced piano. And we cooked our own meals.
We entertained ourselves.
Many years ago, I was on the verge of getting caught up in the Christian entertainment craze. Then a wise pastor (Protestant) told me, “Why don’t we just sing the songs ourselves instead of listening to someone else sing them for us? Isn’t it better to listen to someone in your own church, someone that you know, sing? You have no idea what kind of lives the professionals lead. They could be praising the Lord on stage, and getting drunk after the show.”
His words really made me think long and hard. I did an about-face on a lot of my views and decided to try to avoid any kind of church that was purely “spectator.”
That’s why the Mass is so cool! The Liturgy is “the work of the people.” People–that’s me!
But there are many, many people in the U.S. who avoid Mass because it isn’t “entertaining.” I think this is a very real reason, a very pathetic reason, why Mass attendance in the U.S. has declined.
Please allow me to add that I DON’T think the answer is to make Mass more entertaining! Yuck. There is NO WAY that any Mass is going to be as entertaining as a trip to Disney World, a Beyonce concert, or a night at the opera. We just can’t beat the world when it comes to entertainment. And that’s OK, because Mass isn’t supposed to be “entertainment.” It’s worship.
A lot of non-Catholic ecclesial communities have made or are still making the mistake of thinking that they can actually attract as many people as the local jazz nightclub or community theater or sporting event. It doesn’t work. God is not a big Ed Sullivan, waiting to give us a “really big shoe.”
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
It wasn’t the Latin Mass per se, that caused the decline prior to the reforms. It wasn’t the vernacular that caused the decline afterward or even today.If as you say the decline had begun prior to the reforms, which I will not argue about not having seen figures which either support or rebut, and had anything whatsoever to do with the use of Latin then the reforms should have corrected or at least had some positive effect on the the problem, all things being equal.
They did not.In fact Mass attendance took a nose dive, particularly in the west, all areas of religious life, vocations etc suffered drastic if not fatal losses and reversals and the Church seemed at a complete loss in how to get the lost sheep to return home.
So by your argument, the reason people don’t go to Mass today in the numbers they did before the reforms means they do not connect with the Mass even though it is in the vernacular.
So I would have to assume that the experiment of having the Mass in the vernacular has failed or at a minimum has serious flaws in it.
So why keep it? ** IF** as you say people who truly have faith will attend the Mass, NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN then a return to Latin would probably do no more harm then going to the vernacular did and might even improve things.
Its lack of faith, period.
If the Latin Mass were to return as the mandate, I think young people would join other religions, not the Catholic Church.
I hope and pray we never return to the Pre-Vatican II days!
BTW, I was raised in Pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.
Jim
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jmcrae
Guest
True, that’s a good point. I have mentioned, “Oh, Father says we are to do this,” and people are startled - they say, “And who is he, to tell us how to do this?”
One feels like saying, Um, he’s our parish priest - “boss man” of this little pop-stand.
I think a lot of people are so used to priests bending over backwards for them that they have forgotten that it is the priest who is in charge of the parish - not them.
L
lak611
Guest
I have a friend who left the Catholic Church because there were too many announcements at Mass and in the bulletin about fund raising, collections, raffles, etc. He said that the Church was all about money and that he wanted no part of it. I have tried to get him to come back, even taken him to Mass at my parish and suggested that he find a different parish that does not push money donations/gambling so much. Nothing has worked so far. I am still praying for him. Unfortunately, he sees the Church as being greedy and only interested in money. Other than prayer, I do not know what else to do or say.
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jmcrae
Guest
His bank and his employer really are only interested in money - has he stopped dealing with them, too?
The attitude that the Church should just get along without money always astounds me - I have no idea where people like that are coming from.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
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Greg27
Guest
I also agree this is my own view and experience. I was attracted to the CC initially because of its rich philosophical, theological and spirituality, but in the end the most important thing in the eyes of most Catholics seemed to be absolute and total fidelity to the magesterium (the authority and teaching of the CC in various matters) without dissent or question. In the end I can’t accept any belief without it being up for question and disagreement, if one can find good reasons to disagree with it, but in the CC you basically commit a mortal sin and cannot recieve the Eucharist if you dissent from the magesterium. So in the end I decided to leave, as I can’t accept absolute authority against my conscience in any matter.
The CC no doubt will continue to emphasize absolute authority in terms of the Church’s teaching role, though in Protestantism one doesn’t escape this, the authority in that case is laid down with the Bible. I have deep problems with both forms of absolutism, as to me I find it very difficult to believe any authority is truely infallible. This makes it very difficult in terms of religions, as most (excepting perhaps Buddhism) all seem to make absolutist claims to truth and reality, yet all tend to contradict each other when examined.
Clearly the spiritual yearning is there, but so long as all the world’s religions try to deal with a pluaralistic world by emphasizing absolute authority and absolute obedience, I am not sure if a healthy and vibrant spirituality and faith can come from that in the 21st century. We will have to wait and see.
On the other hand, many young people seem attracted to Catholicism and also various conservative and fundamentalist forms of religion precisely because of their emphasis on authority and infallibility; the Pentecostal sects are usually extremely conservative theologically, as are evangelical Protestants, who make up the fastest growing sectors of the Christian church in the world, and one also should note the explosion of fundamentalist Islam, particularly amoung young Muslims. The reason is evidently absolutes give a firmer anchor in a world that is often confusing and chaotic in terms of beliefs, lifestyles, morality and ideas, and people seem to need a coherent ‘map’ of the universe and where they are going to be healthy mentally. The danger in this in my view is we have lost a sense of history and we forget the reasons why people fought very hard in the past to emphasize human rights and individual freedom against absolutist religions and religious power, which are very important rights we should not surrender even if we convert to a faith.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
Baltimore Catechism
Various editions of the Baltimore Catechism were the de facto standard Catholic school text in America from 1885 to the 1960s. It was often taught by rote. The most common edition has a series of questions with their answers, which are followed by explanations in more depth. These are often accompanied by Biblical quotes. There is a test at the end of every chapter.
We still use this for the Homeschool text on the Catachism.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
Now for my opinion of why Mass has declined.
Misunderstanding of basic Catholic doctrine.:tsktsk: Alot of it from the misunderstanding of what Vatican II did and did not do.:banghead:
Misunderstanding of basic Catholic doctrine.:tsktsk: Alot of it from the misunderstanding of what Vatican II did and did not do.:banghead:
E
edwest2
Guest
I saw it at my Catholic school. I found out one guy was living with his girlfriend and he told me it was OK because he loved her. The disordered family/male/female relationships that were encouraged by the so-called “sexual revolution” of the 1960s even seeped into seminaries. Mass became a folk concert. This wasn’t about Vatican II. It was about caring and loving Catholics allowing evil disguised as positive change into their lives.
In my community I was surrounded by great role models. People who watched their speech around kids, around women, around people they didn’t know. Who lived with moderate means. Who were content. Who spoke to their neighbors.
The Hippies, Yippies and Radicals ended up infiltrating our neighborhoods with their underground newspapers and filthy underground comic books. People gradually became less polite, then openly rude and then downright vile. By the way, this is what passes for “comedy” on TV and radio now. Look how far we’ve gone off the path!
Now most people I meet are divorced, or on marriage 2 or 3, or shacking up with their boyfriend or girlfriend. Need I point out that this was the desired goal of the “Sexual Revolution”? To tear families apart. To have kids by 2 or 3 different men. And “don’t you dare tell me what to do!”
Kids openly cursing at their moms in public?
This isn’t about statistics. God will raise up His servants among the people. It’s not about intellectualism except in the sense that kids today are so poorly raised they have no idea which way to turn or what to believe.
Who are their role models? Britney Spears? Paris Hilton? Some foul-mouthed rapper or some “shock jock”?
The media is continuing to drip poison into everybody’s lives. Kids dolls called “Bratz”? Have you seen them? They are not sweet and innocent.
I’m reminded of an old movie set shortly after World War II. A widow and her daughter go into a pub to get away from home and to be with other people. The mother hears dirty drinking songs and says aloud, “Aren’t there other songs?” and leaves with her daughter.
The tables have been turned. The TV is no longer a welcomed guest. The radio is not much better. The newspaper continues to support embryonic stem cell research and the magazines on the racks at supermarkets border on porn.
My suggestion: get the local Catholic newspaper and good Catholic magazines. Start to see the world from a proper Catholic perspective. It’s helped me a lot.
Then, once you are reminded of what is holy, what is right and what is truly important, then going to Church will become more than spending an hour daydreaming.
God bless,
Ed
P.S.
And thanks for the comments about my posts.
In my community I was surrounded by great role models. People who watched their speech around kids, around women, around people they didn’t know. Who lived with moderate means. Who were content. Who spoke to their neighbors.
The Hippies, Yippies and Radicals ended up infiltrating our neighborhoods with their underground newspapers and filthy underground comic books. People gradually became less polite, then openly rude and then downright vile. By the way, this is what passes for “comedy” on TV and radio now. Look how far we’ve gone off the path!
Now most people I meet are divorced, or on marriage 2 or 3, or shacking up with their boyfriend or girlfriend. Need I point out that this was the desired goal of the “Sexual Revolution”? To tear families apart. To have kids by 2 or 3 different men. And “don’t you dare tell me what to do!”
Kids openly cursing at their moms in public?
This isn’t about statistics. God will raise up His servants among the people. It’s not about intellectualism except in the sense that kids today are so poorly raised they have no idea which way to turn or what to believe.
Who are their role models? Britney Spears? Paris Hilton? Some foul-mouthed rapper or some “shock jock”?
The media is continuing to drip poison into everybody’s lives. Kids dolls called “Bratz”? Have you seen them? They are not sweet and innocent.
I’m reminded of an old movie set shortly after World War II. A widow and her daughter go into a pub to get away from home and to be with other people. The mother hears dirty drinking songs and says aloud, “Aren’t there other songs?” and leaves with her daughter.
The tables have been turned. The TV is no longer a welcomed guest. The radio is not much better. The newspaper continues to support embryonic stem cell research and the magazines on the racks at supermarkets border on porn.
My suggestion: get the local Catholic newspaper and good Catholic magazines. Start to see the world from a proper Catholic perspective. It’s helped me a lot.
Then, once you are reminded of what is holy, what is right and what is truly important, then going to Church will become more than spending an hour daydreaming.
God bless,
Ed
P.S.
And thanks for the comments about my posts.
B
briang72
Guest
I see I am a product of my own criticism on poor catechism
I am aware of the Baltimore Catechism, but not that it was used as a Catholic school text. I attended Catholic school Kindergarten through middle of 8th grade, but that was 1978-1986, so I was not taught from the Baltimore Catechism.
By solid reason, I wasn’t thinking of the number of available Mass times. I was thinking of a person’s health, or transportation problems, etc.This is why I think attendance has declined. I do not agree with or condone missing Mass without solid reason.
KathleenElsie:
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KatieD
Guest
There are so many good points made in previous posts. I believe there are several factors in the decline in Mass attendance, and I think an important one is the “watering down” of our faith.
Last week, I was told by a Liturgy Director that it doesn’t matter if someone who is Protestant presents herself for Holy Communion, even if she believes it is just “bread and wine”, the priest has no business reminding us of the guidelines for the reception of Holy Communion, whether a Catholic goes to Confession is a matter of “their own personal guidelines” and it should have absolutely nothing to do with whether they are able to receive the Eucharist, as well as other pearls of wisdom. Is it any wonder that with stuff like this in our parishes, some parishioners believe that attending Mass isn’t important either?
Last week, I was told by a Liturgy Director that it doesn’t matter if someone who is Protestant presents herself for Holy Communion, even if she believes it is just “bread and wine”, the priest has no business reminding us of the guidelines for the reception of Holy Communion, whether a Catholic goes to Confession is a matter of “their own personal guidelines” and it should have absolutely nothing to do with whether they are able to receive the Eucharist, as well as other pearls of wisdom. Is it any wonder that with stuff like this in our parishes, some parishioners believe that attending Mass isn’t important either?
T
turtleoompa
Guest
If one is strong in their faith and understands their faith they will not stray. It took me 49 years to figure this one out. The Church is made up of human beings that are falible. But the core is God. I go to Mass with my family each week. As an adult I no longer sleep during the homily, because I get it now. I listen to the readings and enjoy the homily. The Eucharist makes me a good person. In our Church the pews are filled every week with about 700 people each Mass. There are 7 Masses each week. It is a personal thing, get to know the benefits of Mass regardless of how bad some clergy may be. Make the changes if you don’t like what is happening. We are the Church, we can make it how it should be.
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