Why have Evangelicals allied themselves with Israel & Zionists?

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

Well what about Pius IX’s encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863), which states, “We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life.” And Fr. Feeney was excommunicated before Vatican II.

Regardless, the fact is that Judaism is more in line with Christianity than Islam and Israel is better ideologically (the physically is debatable via pro_universal ) for middle eastern Christianity.

Okay, so then the question becomes: who is invincibly ignorant? What exactly is invincible ignorance? My problem isn’t so much with baptism of blood or desire or invincible ignorance, it’s more with the whole “be the best non-Catholic you can be and we’ll leave you alone and you’ll go to Heaven anyways” kind of attitude. And it goes the whole way up to the pope, at least with JP2 so obviously this is how even the highest of Church officials interpreted Vatican II. The CCC even says that non-Catholic religions are paths to salvation. That is a total rejection of earlier Church teaching that Catholicism is the ONLY path to salvation since salvation comes through Christ alone and His Church alone. To reject these earlier teachings is to imply that the Church had previously erred which is impossible. The only possible scenario is that the current Church is in error.

 

[lcalise]

JSmitty2005:

My problem isn’t so much with baptism of blood or desire or invincible ignorance, it’s more with the whole “be the best non-Catholic you can be and we’ll leave you alone and you’ll go to Heaven anyways” kind of attitude.

I don’t think it’s a ‘you’ll go to Heaven anyways’ kind of thing. It’s more like saying you lived the best life possible and didn’t deny the Church/truth through your own fault or flaws. Therefore, we’re not going to rule out the possibility that God might save you, but the hope is higher in full communion with the Church. I consider the attitude more like the ‘O my Jesus’ prayer.

The CCC even says that non-Catholic religions are paths to salvation.

Where does it say that? In 816 (i don’t know how to properly annotate) The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone… that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.

 

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

Where does it say that?

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation

This is not consistent with the above quotes (post 128).

 

[pro_universal]

lcalise:

To what end? Hamas won’t stop until there is no Israel. Arabs fought a war because they wanted Israel gone. How will pulling back do anything except lower the buffer of security?

Um, duh. Palestinians want the annihilation of Israel, as shown in their election of Hamas.

Okay, number 1: that’s written by a Palestinian Christian. That’s why it is relevant to understanding why Palestinian Christians oppose Israel and its US evangelical support. Your list of Palestinian attacks on Christians doesn’t really show anything…the only that is even remotely credible (from the AP) describes a police incident, without any explanation as to motives or context. That is a feature of websites that oppose the Palestinian movement and that oppose muslims generally, which why I suspect you didn’t post the link.

1. The 400,000 settlers aren’t living on unoccupied land. They took it after 1967, and please explain to me how you can expect Palestinians to believe that Israel will ever leave them be to govern themselves when these settlements started the day after the 1967 war, and have continued to swell in number ever since. You seem to be alleging that Israel only attacks Palestinians because of the terror threat. I am showing you that this claim is false by demonstrating that the huge level of construction in the occupied territories belies a non-security goal, namely, the establishment of “greater Israel”.
2. On the citizenship issue: Why does Israel occupy territory and claim the right to control the lives of the people who live there, if it can never grant them a say in that control? The Israelis do most certainly drop 500lb bombs on apartment buildings in the name of “rooting out terrorism”…that is just as murderous as killing someone for being gay, for example. The fact that the Arab states are unjust doesn’t justify Israeli attacks on Palestinians.

Your quote from a “palestinian businessmen” is also uncited, likely for the same reason as the uncited reports above. If you would provide a link, I think the credibility of that information would be clear.

1. Israel is attacking the Palestinians because Palestinian radicals want Israel out of the post 1967 areas. I don’t see how that’s a just cause. If you ask: “Why do Palestinians attack Israel?”, the answer to that question forecloses any moral right to knowingly kill civilians in response. Certainly, Israel has a right to defend civilians, but it has no right at all to kill hundreds of Palestinian civilians to do it.
2. Palestinians, Hamas included, want the annihilation of Israel because they believe Israel will never allow them to live in peace. Can you name one indication that Israel has ever given to the Palestinians that recognizes:
3. Palestinians’ right to live in their ancestral homeland
4. Palestinians’ right to self-government
5. Palestinians’ right to own property
6. Palestiains’ right to defense against military strikes.

If not one of those rights has been recognized and respected by Israel, why on earth would you expect the same from the Palestinians regarding Israel?

 

[Mannyfit75]

But they’re wrong on both points. The Jews are no longer God’s people, Christians are…specifically members of the Church (Catholics). Also, we have more in common with Muslims, don’t we? They believe in certain things about Jesus whereas the Jews have rejected Him altogether.

The Jews are consider by the Catholic Church as elder brothers and sisters. They are still God’s people and so are the Catholics.

There is no teaching in the Catholic Church that Jews are NO longer God’s people.

 

[Vigis]

Why have Evangelicals allied themselves so closely with the Zionist Jews? I don’t understand this. Christians in the Holy Land have more favorable views of Muslims than they do Jews, so why do these American Christians feel so drawn to them?

I once believd that kind of stuff; that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. I would rather be with a Jew though than with some Moslem who might blow himself up. Besides my faith has more in common with a Jew’s faith than a Moslems’s faith. I also view that the nation of Isreal does not deserve the treatment that they get from the surrounding nations. Also the fact is that Isreal is the only real democracy in the Middle East. Iraq is undergoing that kind of stuff. Also almost everyday Moslems go into churches in Jerusalem, take a free Bible and use it as toliet paper or as fire wood. Imagine what they would do if they owned that land. In fact I view Isreal as a buffer for the rest of the Christian world from Islam. Like the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. If we give them an inch they will take a mile. Moslems have waged war against us time and time again. I find no records of the Jews of doing such things. Yes, they persecuted us, but they did not wage a jihad. I also understand why Christians in Isreal do not like the Jews very much. When a Christain is not allowed to be a witness to a Jew unless the Jew comes to he or she then I would be upset. Yes, Isreal is a sort of theocracy. Its state religion is Judaism. God speed.

 

[apophasis]

Why have Evangelicals allied themselves so closely with the Zionist Jews? I don’t understand this. Christians in the Holy Land have more favorable views of Muslims than they do Jews, so why do these American Christians feel so drawn to them?

I suggest you read this article:
biblicist.org/bible/plot.shtml

 

[st_augustine]

The Jews are consider by the Catholic Church as elder brothers and sisters. They are still God’s people and so are the Catholics.

There is no teaching in the Catholic Church that Jews are NO longer God’s people.

Since when Catholic Church is teaching what you are claiming on her behalf?

 

[meedo]

forward.com/articles/fight-erupts-in-dc-over-plight-of-palestinian-chri/

Fight Erupts in D.C. Over Plight of Palestinian Christians
WASHINGTON — A battle has erupted on Capitol Hill over who should be blamed for the plight of Palestinian Christians: Israel or the Palestinian Authority.

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All sides agree that the Christian community in the West Bank faces existential threats and is dwindling, from 20% of the population 50 years to about 1.5% today. They bitterly disagree, however, about who should be held responsible for the decline.

Some argue that the continuing burden of Israel’s occupation is the main culprit; others contend that it is the Palestinian Authority that is mainly responsible, because it allegedly engages in religious discrimination and turns a blind eye to the harassment and persecution of Christians.

The debate itself is not new. Israel and some of its advocates in the United States have in the past fended off accusations regarding the negative impact on Christians of Israeli policies in the West Bank by arguing that intra-Palestinian tensions play a more decisive role in pushing Palestinian Christians to leave the territories. This time around, however, the tussle is taking place on Capitol Hill, with Palestinian Christian activists and their backers attempting to rally the White House for help, and pro-Israel forces trying to leverage government support through legislation.

The battle erupted last month, when the powerful chairman of the House International Relations Committee, Rep. Henry Hyde, an Illinois Republican, sent a letter to President Bush, warning that “Israeli actions [in the West Bank] seem to go beyond the realm of legitimate security concerns and have negative consequences on communities and lands under their [sic] occupation.” Hyde wrote that while America should support Israel’s self-defense, it is “important that United States’ support for Israel not be perceived as involving the affirmation of injustice.”

Days after the letter was sent, an aide to Rep. Michael McCaul, a Texas Republican, drafted a resolution blasting the P.A. over the plight of Christians in the territories. The resolution, which makes no attempt to place any degree of blame on Israel, calls on the president and the secretary of state “to address the condition of minorities under Palestinian Authority rule in order to save from destruction the oldest Christian community in the world.” It also urges the State Department to “investigate and report on the extent of human rights violations by the Palestinian Authority” against Palestinian Christians.

American and Palestinian Christians say that they were not consulted about the proposed resolution. They also point out that it was drafted with the help of an Israeli lawyer, and they say that the current version of the text is marked by distortions and misinformation.

Rep. Joseph Crowley, a New York Democrat, also sponsors the resolution. So far, staffers for Crowley and McCaul — both members of the House International Relations Committee, chaired by Hyde — have recruited more than 20 co-sponsors, including the chair of the House’s subcommittee on the Middle East and the lead candidate to succeed Hyde, Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Florida Republican, and the committee’s minority leader, Rep. Gary Ackerman, a New York Democrat.

Opponents of the resolution, including Christian groups in the United States and in the West Bank, say that the two congressional aides who prepared the bill, Ari Stein of McCaul’s office and Gregg Sheiowitz of Crowley’s office, never consulted any American Christian groups or activists who assist Palestinian Christians. Nor did they talk to any Palestinian Christians, critics said.

 

[meedo]

The two staffers refused to talk with the Forward on the record, but congressional aides familiar with the bill confirmed that no Christian groups or activists — whether in America or in the West Bank — were consulted. After the two circulated the draft resolution and a “Dear Colleague” letter to House members, urging them to co-sponsor the bill, several American Christian groups, including the Conference of Catholic Bishops, called and met with Crowley and McCaul’s staffers, protesting the resolution and the manner in which it was drafted.

Opponents contend that the factual basis of the legislation is flawed. For example, they challenged the bill’s claims that “Palestinian Christians are forced to follow Islamic law in public or face arrest by Palestinian Authority police”; that Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian Authority’s late president, and his supporters “effectively cleansed the [P.A.’s] bureaucracy of Christians”; that “Palestinian Christians are denied jobs in state-run organizations”; that “Palestinian Christians are accused of being Israeli and American collaborators and are interrogated and imprisoned without reason”; that the Palestinian police do not respond to harassment complaints made by Palestinian Christians, and that the unpunished violence toward Christians “has led to a significant increase in pervasive sexual harassment and rape.”

Daphne Tsimhoni, a professor at the Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa and a leading scholar on Christian minorities in the Middle East, told the Forward that almost all the bill’s assertions are either exaggerations, misrepresentations or sheer fabrications.

The aides to McCaul and Crowley told fellow congressional staffers that their main source of information was several reports and articles by Justus Reid Weiner, an Israeli lawyer. Weiner works for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, a right-of-center think-tank. Dore Gold, who was a political adviser to former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and previously served as Israel’s permanent representative to the United Nations, directs the center.

Weiner has written extensively in the past about human rights violations of Christians in the West Bank, faulting the Palestinian society and the Palestinian government for their plight. Some scholars, including Tsimhoni, Palestinian Christians and American Christian groups, have challenged his research. Congressional aides closely familiar with the legislation said that Weiner helped draft the bill. Weiner confirmed to the Forward that he had “seen a draft [of the bill] at one point or another.”

Palestinian Christians and pro-Palestinian activists say that although there may have been isolated incidents of harassment of Palestinian Christians by Palestinian Muslims, and although Palestinian Christians are concerned by the rise to power of militant Islamists in the West Bank, the attempt to portray these phenomena as a systematic pattern of persecution of Christians by the P.A. is absurd.

“This, to me, is like trying to drown a fish in water,” said Afif Safieh, who heads the Palestine Liberation Organization’s mission to Washington. Safieh, a Roman Catholic with scores of relatives in the West Bank, said that the incidents of which he is aware are ones that can be attributed to “lawlessness from which the entire population suffers.” He added that the PLO always has been “extremely open-minded and fair toward the Christian community.”

Christians, he said, are overrepresented in the Palestinian political system and in the P.A.’s bureaucracy. He added that, despite his political differences with the ruling militant Hamas organization, he must admit that the Islamist movement has not taken any steps to discriminate against Christians and has not imposed Islamic law.

“Hamas has not annoyed or disturbed Palestinian Christians,” he said.

Pressure by pro-Palestinian groups to “nip this legislation in the bud,” in the words of James Zogby, president of the Washington-based Arab American Institute, is showing some signs of success.

Congressional aides familiar with the legislation say that the bill’s drafters now realize they erred by not consulting Christian groups, and that their resolution may contain some factual errors. They pointed out that the bill is still in draft form and has not yet been submitted. Its sponsors intend to do so soon.

 

[meedo]

They said that comments by church groups as well as by pro-Palestinian activists could be taken into account to address inaccuracies before final language is submitted.

The dispute over Palestinian Christians is now playing out over another piece of legislation. Critics of Israel’s West Bank policies are blocking a resolution pushed by the Orthodox Union, marking the 39th anniversary of the reunification of Jerusalem. The same critics object to an assertion in the bill, which says that Jerusalem is “a unified city in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are protected.”

The question of whether Palestinian Christians have the freedom to access their places of worship in and around Jerusalem is of particular concern to Hyde.

Hyde attached a copy of a report prepared by his staff to his May 19 letter to Bush, documenting the alleged impact of Israel’s security barrier in and around Christian population centers, including Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The report was based on a series of visits by Hyde’s staff to Israel and the West Bank over the past two years. Specifically, the report talks about sections of the barrier being built on Palestinian Christian land, the inability of Palestinian Christians to access their places of worship because of Israeli travel restrictions, and the Israeli government’s backing of aggressive attempts by militant Jewish settlers to move into the Christian Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City and into other predominantly Christian parts of Jerusalem.

Hyde’s letter was private, but it became very public when syndicated columnist Robert Novak quoted from it extensively in a May 23 column. Novak has written about the issue in the past, but this column was particularly embarrassing for several reasons, Israeli diplomats said. It came as American Christian groups were discussing divestment from Israel to protest its policies in the West Bank. It also was sent days before Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s visit to Washington. Novak suggested in his column that the issue be discussed during Olmert’s White House meeting with the president. According to sources close to Olmert, it was not; however, in recent weeks the White House has expressed interest in Hyde’s report. Earlier this month, a senior official in Vice President Dick Cheney’s office met with Hyde’s staffers and promised to follow up on the matter.

Fri. Jun 23, 2006

 

[australia]

Although Jews do not accept Jesus, it can not be denied that they still have a special place with God. As for the statement that Evangelicals have alligned themselves with Israel, all I can say is that I know of many Catholics who strongly support the right of Israel to exists, defend itself and to be a National home for the Jewish people. Israel has always respected the sacred Christian places within its borders and allowed Christians to make pilgrimage there, this is not somthing that can be said of the many Muslim regimes that rule the Holy Land in the Centuries before the establishment of the British mandate of palestine in 1919.

Luke.

 

[Jasny]

I think there has to be a distinction on this thread betwen Jews and Isrelies. I think they are two different things. Manz of mz friends were jewish but didt agree with many polocies of Isreal. It would be simular as linking the IRA with the position of all Catholics.

 

[meedo]

Although Jews do not accept Jesus, it can not be denied that they still have a special place with God. As for the statement that Evangelicals have alligned themselves with Israel, all I can say is that I know of many Catholics who strongly support the right of Israel to exists, defend itself and to be a National home for the Jewish people. Israel has always respected the sacred Christian places within its borders and allowed Christians to make pilgrimage there, this is not somthing that can be said of the many Muslim regimes that rule the Holy Land in the Centuries before the establishment of the British mandate of palestine in 1919.

Luke.

why a nation for jews? what about the christian arabs and muslim arabs there? what about the arabs that lived in the land and were displaced or were kicked out?

what happens if arabs outnumber jews one day and choose to make it a non jewish state but a nation for all . would they e kicked out? why are Only jews allowed to immigrate to iisrael while arabs cant. Isnt that discrimination based on faith? 20 % of Israelis are arabs what about them? dont they have the right to have their relatives immigrate to them too?

When did muslims stop christians from worshipping or pilgrimage to the Holy land ?!

thanks

 

[murtad]

Yes, the Palestinian Christians don’t like Israel because Israel can’t separate its defensive/offensive actions between peaceful Palestinians and violent Palestinians.

Palestinian Christians do not hate Israel but they have got to pretend they hate Israel for fear of their lives. If they say that they love Israel, the Islamic regime in control of the Palestine Authority will scream “Zionist”, then “Allah Akbar” and finally slit their throat.

The wall sucks for them… but that’s not the only issue that makes life crappy for them. Again, I point to church/ business burnings and the treatment of apostates.

Yeah, living in any of those 57 Islamic nations sucks. Prosetylising is illegal, leaving Islam is punishable by death or imprisonment, and there exists economic discrimination due to religious affiliation, and getting license/permit to build new church is very difficult and if your church is approved it will be built in an inconvinient location, ie. very far away from civil society

But, again, the question wasn’t whether Palestinian Christians support Israel, but why Evangelicals do. From an ideological perspective, Israel is more conducive towards ‘evangelization’ than any other Middle Eastern country. Do you disagree?

No, I do not disagree. Israel is the ONLY open, free and secular democratic society among the sea of 22 “Arab” States. There are so many Israeli Catholics who live in Israel, both Arab and Jewish alike, many who converted to Catholicism from Islam and Judaism. However, you will NEVER find an ex-Muslim in Palestine, which is very strange especially as PA claims to be championing “Arab” equality! I actually believe this “Arab Christian” mantra used by PA is a form of propaganda to gain sympathy and support from the West for their Islamic cause.

Btw, I tried googling “Persecution of Palestinian Christians” and it had some good links both anti-Palestinian authority and anti-Israel. Basically, I conclude the Palestinian Christians just get screwed over big time by both groups.

What you say is very true! Let me add that its just not Palestinian Christians who are screwed over big time but every Christian living in those 57 Islamic nations that form the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC). Palestine, Malaysia, Iran, and Pakistan are some of the greatest persecutors of Christians.

 

[murtad]

why a nation for jews? what about the christian arabs and muslim arabs there? what about the arabs that lived in the land and were displaced or were kicked out?

There is NO such thing as a Christian Arab! An Arab is a Muslim ideology, and the whole Middle East was during Byzantine era was Syriac-speaking or Coptic-speaking. However, Islamic rule imposed RACIST taxes called Jizyah and Kharaj forcing many non-Arab Christians to convert to Islam. Such conversions to Islam required them also to renounce their ethnicity (either Syriac or Coptic). Eventually, Syriac and Coptic became dead languages, so Mid Eastern Christians use Arabic, but they are NOT Arabs. Only Muslims can be Arabs.

When did muslims stop christians from worshipping or pilgrimage to the Holy land ?!

The Islamic terrorist leader Caliph Umar invaded Byzantine territory, Palestine illegally and occupied it. That was the beginning of Islamic aggression, terrorism, and apartheid towards Christians, regardless Catholic or Orthodox alike.

 

[a_priori]

There is NO such thing as a Christian Arab!

When I first converted to Eastern Orthodoxy I attended an Antiochian parish full of Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians who very much considered themselves and their ancestors Arab and Christian.

 

[Valke2]

But they’re wrong on both points. The Jews are no longer God’s people, Christians are…specifically members of the Church (Catholics). Also, we have more in common with Muslims, don’t we? They believe in certain things about Jesus whereas the Jews have rejected Him altogether.

Really? That’s a fickle god you have there. YOu better hope He doesn’t change His mind again.

 

[Brian_C]

Really? That’s a fickle god you have there. YOu better hope He doesn’t change His mind again.

That post was baloney and Mr. Smitty doesn’t appear to be able to argue it anyway.

 

[DShreffler]

cmep.org/Alerts/2004March31.htm

Evangelical leaders such as the Rev. Jerry Falwell began lobbying for greater political support of Israel from the U.S. government and urging financial support from the rapidly growing evangelical movement. And the relationship between evangelical leaders and the Israeli government began to flower, slowly at first because many Israeli leaders hesitated to accept money from people who might want to convert them.

The 1977 election of Likud Party leader Menachem Begin as prime minister marked a new era in evangelical-Israeli relations. Begin was so pleased with Falwell’s pro-Israel activities that in 1979 he gave the evangelical leader a Lear jet.