Why have Evangelicals allied themselves with Israel & Zionists?

[KindredSoul]

Well, I don’t technically support the military aspects of the Palestinian wars either way…It seems that there is selfishness and personal motivation on both sides.

However, I couldn’t bring myself to be *anti-*zionist, because wouldn’t this be cursing the Jews? That’s to say, even if I don’t actively support the Jewish cause, I don’t know that I feel safe hindering it. The thing is, I am completely neutral when it comes to building a secular state of Israel…but it seems that many Jews want to (completely) win the Holy Land for religious reasons–to rebuild the temple without hindrance from others (Particularly, Muslims who have a mosque in place of the Temple). I can empathize with these Jews…

Imagine that Catholics could only take the Eucharist in the Vatican (I know, it seems practically impossible, but for the sake of argument, imagine all Catholics could actually make time and space to go there). If we’d lost the Vatican, wouldn’t we want it back? Therefore, a religious, orthodox Jew would long for the Holy Land, the Land that alone is special, the only Land in which the one Temple can be built, according to the Old Testament. Now, the said Jew might disagree with a similarly religious Jew about whether this is done by War or the Messiah, but the end result is something they would both desire.

Keep in mind, I don’t think that the reinstitution of Israel or the Temple will have much bearing, if any, on the Christian scheme of things. I don’t need the Temple to be rebuilt…I can just see why the religious Jews, who have never (as a nation) willingly given up their land would want it back…in fact, if Israel had never been forced to give up the land, there would be no question as to who deserved the land.

That said, both sides are victims…it’s not the present day Palestinians’ fault that their ancestors caused their home to be in conflict with the rightful ancestral, religious home of the Jews. However, it’s also not the fault of the present day Jews that their ancestors lost this land which (to many religious Jews) is extremely important, regardless of whether acquired by secular or religious means.

All things considered, I think it’s hard to pick sides with a clear conscience…but in view of history as a whole, the land was stolen from the Jews…they owned it first, and there’s no denying that (the ancient Canaanites are no longer an ethnic reality, so that’s irrelevant). With that in mind, I can’t (with my current understanding) oppose them, in this particular issue, even if I don’t particularly take part in the Zionist movement either.

 

[a_priori]

You make some interesting points.

Keep in mind, I don’t think that the reinstitution of Israel or the Temple will have much bearing, if any, on the Christian scheme of things…

Don’t say that out loud in front of an evangelical dispensationalist. This is one of the centerpieces of their eschatology and they believe it must happen for Christ to return.

…it’s not the present day Palestinians’ fault that their ancestors caused their home to be in conflict with the rightful ancestral, religious home of the Jews. However, it’s also not the fault of the present day Jews that their ancestors lost this land which (to many religious Jews) is extremely important, regardless of whether acquired by secular or religious means.

If you substitute “Native American” for Jews and “Americans” for Palestinians, what would the difference really be conceptually? What would the implications be?

 

[KindredSoul]

I actually did think, long and hard, about the similarities between their situation and the American/Native American situation before posting. In the end, A Priori, that’s why both sides are victims. It is similar. That said, neither side can be told “You’re wrong…just open your eyes and see it!” Perhaps one side can be told “Your ancestors were wrong,” but then that’s not something that can be held against the present day descendents…something that, confusingly enough, is true on both sides. I agree, what’s going on now in Israel is tragic and unfortunately ambiguous…

 

[fin]

this is off topic but anyways, i have also read in another thread about Padre Pio saying something antiSemitic. But he’s also the guy who said women shouldn’t wear pants and should wear skirts nine inches below the knee(qwhy didn’t he just say ankle length?)
Even if he is a saint I do not agree with everything he says. Nevertheless, he IS a saint.
Oh, i think today is his feastday. Happy feastday, Padre Pio!!!

 

[DShreffler]

Well, I don’t technically support the military aspects of the Palestinian wars either way…It seems that there is selfishness and personal motivation on both sides.

However, I couldn’t bring myself to be *anti-*zionist, because wouldn’t this be cursing the Jews? That’s to say, even if I don’t actively support the Jewish cause, I don’t know that I feel safe hindering it. The thing is, I am completely neutral when it comes to building a secular state of Israel…but it seems that many Jews want to (completely) win the Holy Land for religious reasons–to rebuild the temple without hindrance from others (Particularly, Muslims who have a mosque in place of the Temple). I can empathize with these Jews…

Imagine that Catholics could only take the Eucharist in the Vatican (I know, it seems practically impossible, but for the sake of argument, imagine all Catholics could actually make time and space to go there). If we’d lost the Vatican, wouldn’t we want it back? Therefore, a religious, orthodox Jew would long for the Holy Land, the Land that alone is special, the only Land in which the one Temple can be built, according to the Old Testament. Now, the said Jew might disagree with a similarly religious Jew about whether this is done by War or the Messiah, but the end result is something they would both desire.

Keep in mind, I don’t think that the reinstitution of Israel or the Temple will have much bearing, if any, on the Christian scheme of things. I don’t need the Temple to be rebuilt…I can just see why the religious Jews, who have never (as a nation) willingly given up their land would want it back…in fact, if Israel had never been forced to give up the land, there would be no question as to who deserved the land.

That said, both sides are victims…it’s not the present day Palestinians’ fault that their ancestors caused their home to be in conflict with the rightful ancestral, religious home of the Jews. However, it’s also not the fault of the present day Jews that their ancestors lost this land which (to many religious Jews) is extremely important, regardless of whether acquired by secular or religious means.

All things considered, I think it’s hard to pick sides with a clear conscience…but in view of history as a whole, the land was stolen from the Jews…they owned it first, and there’s no denying that (the ancient Canaanites are no longer an ethnic reality, so that’s irrelevant). With that in mind, I can’t (with my current understanding) oppose them, in this particular issue, even if I don’t particularly take part in the Zionist movement either.

You should do a little search on Zionism. It is a rather recent movement that felt quite chummy with athistic Communism. Zionists in the US atomic program handed the technology to the USSR. They referred to Communism as a kind of substitute Zionism. These people endangered the lives of everyone in the Western Hemisphere. They continue to do so.

 

[KindredSoul]

If that be the case, DShreffler, then perhaps one could say that I don’t sympathize with the Zionist movement at all…however, simply for the record (which, if it’s separate from Zionism, is somewhat off topic but noteworthy) I do and will always sympathize with the cause of the Jews who, for religious reasons and without malicious intent, want to have their ancestral, spiritual homeland back. As I said, this may be off topic because it’s–from what you say–separate from Zionism (I thought it would at least be a sub-category of the same for some Jews), but I just wanted to distinguish that even if I don’t sympathize with Zionists, I sympathize with the Jews I just mentioned…

I do still believe there’s some ambiguity to this though, even if not on the whole. I doubt that everyone in the Zionist movement are atheistic lowlives.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This might be a bit off topic, but it should be remembered in all this that, as of 1948 there had never been a Palestinian state. Never. Nor had there been a Jewish state in the Middle East since ancient times. In 1948, there were Jews, Christians and Muslims in the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. With world sanction, the Jews set up a state. The Muslim part of “Palestine” was made part and parcel of Jordan, and remained so until the 1967 war. If there is any possibility of a “Palestinian state” now, it is only because Israel took the West Bank from Jordan, and Gaza from Egypt. If that had not happened, it would not have occurred to anyone, least of all Palestinians, that a Palestinian state could or should be established, either in the West Bank, which would still be part of Jordan, or in Gaza, which would still be part of Egypt. Certainly, no Islamic states would be pushing for it if the whole of Israel had been given to Jordan or Egypt, or divided between them. Islamists support the destruction of Israel, not because of any Palestinian “right”, but because it’s largely composed of Jews, and for no other reason.

 

[murtad]

When I first converted to Eastern Orthodoxy I attended an Antiochian parish full of Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians who very much considered themselves and their ancestors Arab and Christian.

Then they are being dishonest as Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians are of the Syrian race (ie Aramaic-speaking). It was only after Islam came, the inhabitants of those so-called 22 “Arab” States became Arabic-speaking. This kind of cultural genocide, not much different from Yugoslav Serbs that tried to Serbify the ethnic Albanians!

I am aware that the Greek Orthodox, especially its Antiochian Patriarchate tends to be very Anti-Semitic and pro-Arabist, which is why they say they are Arabs, even if they are not. These Greek Orthodox are not ashamed to do such a dishonorable act like breaking one of the 10 commandments-- do not lie.

OTOH, the Oriental Orthodox (ie Coptic and Syriac) and Oriental Catholic Churches, such as Chaldean Catholics are very honest to admit they are not Arabs but merely Arabic-speaking. In fact, they maintain an Aramaic liturgy side-by-side Arabic liturgy to remind us our 2,000 year history.

We, Chaldean Catholics in Iraq worship in Aramaic and Arabic, and we use Aramaic because its our ancestral language–Iraq was an Aramaic-speaking land.

God richly blessed us when he overthrew Saddam Hussein in March 2003 and today, Syriac is one of the four official languages of Iraq.

 

[bootleggersouth]

Forgive my adaptation of a practical, rather than theological, tone, but as a working-class Southerner who has had much exposure to the evangelical mindset I have reached the following conclusions:

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee has deeply enmeshed itself in American political (and therefore business) concerns to the point of cultural domination.

Our so-called religious and political leaders reflect submission to this AIPAC-dominated agenda in their speech and actions to the point where being in opposition to Israel is equated, whether consciously or not, with being in opposition to America and to God.

Since Evangelicals tend to be a salt-of-the-earth, hardworking and loyal people, they tend to follow State/Church authority without question, even when it leads to ruin.

 

[Valke2]

Forgive my adaptation of a practical, rather than theological, tone, but as a working-class Southerner who has had much exposure to the evangelical mindset I have reached the following conclusions:

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee has deeply enmeshed itself in American political (and therefore business) concerns to the point of cultural domination.

Our so-called religious and political leaders reflect submission to this AIPAC-dominated agenda in their speech and actions to the point where being in opposition to Israel is equated, whether consciously or not, with being in opposition to America and to God.

Since Evangelicals tend to be a salt-of-the-earth, hardworking and loyal people, they tend to follow State/Church authority without question, even when it leads to ruin.

that sounds more like a fictional, rather than practical tone.