Why I am Drifting from Catholicism to Islam

[CatsAndDogs]

The word for it in Arabic is tawheed, which I’ll translate as absolutely pure monotheism.

What makes tawheed correct?

 

[SedesDomi]

I think it’s pretty clear why the OP is attracted to Islam.

The word for it in Arabic is tawheed, which I’ll translate as absolutely pure monotheism.

Yes, and pure monotheism can also exist in Trinitarian form.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What makes tawheed correct?

God, when He commanded it!

When He told the Children of Israel, through Moses:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deut 6:4)

When you can read the prayer of Hannah in 1 Sam 2:2:
There is no one holy ** like the LORD;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

And in 2 Sam 7:22:
How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! **There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, **as we have heard with our own ears.

And when Jesus was asked what was the most important commandment, he declared in Mark 12:29 that it is this:
’Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’

And what did Muhammad come to teach the people? God told him what to say, He revealed ch. 112:1:
Say, He is Allah (GOD), the ONE!

That’s what makes tawheed correct–it is what all the messengers have preached, it is the truth from my Lord and from your Lord.**

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, and pure monotheism can also exist in Trinitarian form.

Pure absolute monotheism is pure and absolute because it cannot exist in any other form.

 

[SedesDomi]

Pure absolute monotheism is pure and absolute because it cannot exist in any other form.

“Pure absolute monotheism” is not a “form”. To say that it cannot exist in any other “form” implies that it does exist in at least one “form”, which, of course, is impossible.

Since pure absolute monotheism cannot exist in any form whatsoever, it can exist in all forms altogether.

 

[Sister_Amy]

“Pure absolute monotheism” is not a “form”. To say that it cannot exist in any other “form” implies that it does exist in at least one “form”, which, of course, is impossible.

Since pure absolute monotheism cannot exist in any form whatsoever, it can exist in all forms altogether.

The refutation to your argument was given in the first post of this thread.

 

[SedesDomi]

The refutation to your argument was given in the first post of this thread.

God cannot be refuted by argument. He can only be surrendered to.

 

[Sister_Amy]

God cannot be refuted by argument. He can only be surrendered to.

Is your argument your god?

 

[Madaglan]

I have decided to comment on individual parts.

So, I have begun a serious study of Islam and fin a great deal of beauty and merrit in the religion.

Much of Islamic ritual and prayer is rooted in Eastern Christian forms.

I was raised Catholic…St. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, and Jacques Maritain.

These are all Western theoloians. Read the Eastern Fathers, including St. John the Damascene who even makes comments on the Koran.

I did very much consider it a religion, “Spread by the Sword” as opposed to the Church which was spread by the “blood of the Martyrs”, the old Crusader stereotypes…

Islam spread rapidly by conquest. I don’t know if everyone was forced at sword point to become Muslim, but I imagine there were pressures to become Muslim or lose important opportunities in the new state.

However that view has begun to change due to two principle forces. Firstly getting to know individual Muslims, and secondly reading Muslim Scholars and the Qur’an. Now, the primary purpose of this thread is for me to present to you, the main reason’s I would consider Christianity dubious.

Ok.

Firstly there is the concept of the Trinity.

The Trinity is not a concept.

Honestly I don’t see how this is anything but a rather silly idea wrapped in sophisticated Aristotelian and Scholastic language to make it appear coherent.

That’s what happened in the West.

“No, it’s not a polytheistic idea, God is one being but three persons” I really don’t see how this is other than linguistic acrobatics.

Three persons of one essence is the better expression.

Yes, the Trinity is a “great mystery”, we all know the charming story of St Augustine walking on the beach and meeting the young man, but can anyone honestly say this idea doesn’t strike you as intuitively false? I mean most five year old children find it an absurd reason until clever sophists can convince them that the patently absurd in conceivable.

So, who appeared to Mohammed?

I’m sure there are all sorts of platitudes thrusting forth one’s simple pious faith, and that absurdity is no affront to the “truth” and all other sorts of generalized evasions that divert the issue to anything but the incoherence of this doctrine, yet the incoherence remains, and I think most Christian, if they are honest with themselves, would have to admit it is at least intuitively dubious, if not patently silly.

How is the Koran any more inspired than the Book of Mormon?

Secondly there is the matter of Jesus’ Crucifixion. I know, “God is just, and infinite sin must be reconciled by and infinitely perfect sacrifice” or whatever formulation you wish, however, Christopher Hitchen’s hyperbole aside, it is a good point.
God s omnipotent, yet He must kill himself, excuse me His Son, no excuse me, the human nature of his Son, which is what died, of course that’s not the sacrifice as human nature is not infinite perfection, so Christ was sacrifices, his human nature is what died, yet that was not the totality of the sacrifice, but all of Christ was sacrificed? …

Get your head out of Anselm. It will do you good.

Those are the two most egregious doctrines, though naturally there are a plethora of issues, however I have slept little and it is late. I have not left the Church yet, before I did I would want to read the entire Catechism and most major ecumenical Councilor documents, however the primary reason I remain in the Church is social pressure.

Read the Eastern Fathers as well. It would not hurt to read Eastern Christian works as well.

As I said, I have an excellent relationship with my Priests and the local Catholic Community at large, I don’t think they would take my conversion well, nor would my conservative Grandparents, with whom I also have a magnificent relationship.

They’d probably burn you at the stake. You’d better watch out.

Next Fall semester, however, I will likely look into the Student Muslim Association Chapter.

Ok. Blow yourself away.

Now, perhaps I am totally misguided in my criticisms of these doctrine, and I am very willing to listen to criticisms of my criticisms. I have seen, in only a few moments, that there are a few Islamaphobes(that being the most PC term for such individuals), to you individuals, I’m not interested in hearing your Spencer spoon fed bull****.

Read up on Islamic teaching on predestination.

I have only scratched the surface and have not even adressed why I am drawn to Islam, however I’m sleepy. Good NIght

Thank you for reading the confused ramblings of a Uni Freshman:shrug:

Ok

 

[SedesDomi]

Is your argument your god?

God is beyond words.

 

[rwoehmke]

If I may make a bold, and, I’m sure, somewhat unwelcome to many here, suggestion, I think a lot of your problems with the Trinity, the Atonement, etc. are due to only being exposed to them in their western and scholastic form. I would strongly suggest, if you haven’t already, reading some Eastern Christian theology. I would suggest Zizioulas’ Being as Communion and Lossky’s Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. The Trinity isn’t some clever word game to justify polytheism; it is at the root of reality itself. The Atonement wasn’t a matter of God punishing His Son instead of us, it was Christ restoring by His obedience, out of love, what we had lost in the Fall, and bringing to us the very life of the Trinity. Joe

I think you are accepting the OP’s understanding of these things as what the Latin Church teaches. It does not teach these items as the OP understands them. Part of his problem is that for all his study he has a lack of comprehension. I suppose understandable in in Uni Freshman. I think our two branches of Christianity are not that far apart in many things. The OP’s understanding would be similar to the understanding of some forms of protestantism.

 

[Madaglan]

If I may make a bold, and, I’m sure, somewhat unwelcome to many here, suggestion, I think a lot of your problems with the Trinity, the Atonement, etc. are due to only being exposed to them in their western and scholastic form. I would strongly suggest, if you haven’t already, reading some Eastern Christian theology. I would suggest Zizioulas’ Being as Communion and Lossky’s Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. The Trinity isn’t some clever word game to justify polytheism; it is at the root of reality itself. The Atonement wasn’t a matter of God punishing His Son instead of us, it was Christ restoring by His obedience, out of love, what we had lost in the Fall, and bringing to us the very life of the Trinity. Joe

Agreed. Also, it would not hurt to read St. Photios’ Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[wth1257]

I think it’s pretty clear why the OP is attracted to Islam.

The word for it in Arabic is tawheed, which I’ll translate as absolutely pure monotheism.

That’s absolutly a factor

 

[wth1257]

I think you are accepting the OP’s understanding of these things as what the Latin Church teaches. It does not teach these items as the OP understands them. Part of his problem is that for all his study he has a lack of comprehension. I suppose understandable in in Uni Freshman. I think our two branches of Christianity are not that far apart in many things. The OP’s understanding would be similar to the understanding of some forms of protestantism.

Sure, my confused late night ramblings ought not to be taken as definitive representations of Latin Theology. It was presented with little regard for proper representations, as my objections are emotional I felt it proper to give an emotional cathartic outburst at what I feel to be absurd in Christianity.

I’d be interested to see your thoughts on the Trinity

 

[beckycmarie]

Dr. Peter Kreeft, Catholic apologist and professor of philosophy, has some things to say that may help answer the questions and resolve doubts you are having about the one true Church. You can read and/or listen here:

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The best quote I’ve seen about what’s wrong with Islam is this one:

Jews (historically anyway) genuinely worship the God of Abraham, Christians genuinely worship the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is the FOUNDER of our religions.

Islam worships the God of Abraham only superficially. Islam was not founded by the God of Abraham, but by a man who had inspirations from demons and with motivations of politics constructed a religion according to his own agenda. Mohammad merely “borrowed” the God of Abraham from the Jews, peppered a little Catholicism, and created a man-made religion for his own purposes.

Since Islam is a man-made religion that merely borrows the God of Abraham for its own purposes is it any wonder that it developed such hideous beliefs and practices.

While there are many good and peaceful Muslims, the religion itself cannot be redeemed. I am sorry, that is not very politically correct of me, but the Jewish and Christian faiths were born in perfection and holiness because they were born of God Himself. Islam was born of sin, born of demons, born of men and cannot be redeemed.

This is why Islam is perhaps the greatest threat today to the civilization of the world. This is not unique since Islam was the greatest threat to civilization for a while in the Middle Ages too. That is why we had the Crusades – to save the Holy Land and also to save Europe from marauding and invading Muslims. It is a theme that reoccurs.

The Hidden face of Islam is Satan.

This is a public BBS available to read by anyone on the Internet. If I start to get death threats for telling the truth about this, then so be it. Those who have exposed Islam coming under threat of death only proves the evil of Islam.

You will notice that when Jews or Christians are criticized, or even lied about and slandered we do not call for a jihad, we do not call for the death of the author. But when some author exposes the violence of Islam, the response is “you have insulted us, we are not violent, you must die.”

Source: “The Hidden Face of Islam” Thread, Spiritual Warfare BBS

 

[Sister_Amy]

God is beyond words.

Is that a yes? You worship your argument?

 

[SedesDomi]

Is that a yes? You worship your argument?

An argument is just words. God is beyond words. God is beyond argument.

 

[Sister_Amy]

An argument is just words. God is beyond words. God is beyond argument.

An argument is just words. And your argument was refuted on page 1.

 

[SedesDomi]

An argument is just words. And your argument was refuted on page 1.

Page 1 wasn’t a refutation. It was, rather, more of a critique of Christian Trinitarianism.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Page 1 wasn’t a refutation. It was, rather, more of a critique of Christian Trinitarianism.

Allow me to remind you. The OP wrote:

Honestly I don’t see how this is anything but a rather silly idea wrapped in sophisticated Aristotelian and Scholastic language to make it appear coherent.

What you’re doing is the same–employing “sophisticated Aristotelian and scholastic language to make” your assertion “appear coherent.”