Why I identify as homosexual even while living chastely

[Edward_H]

I have no idea what you’re talking about. But if your argument is concerning the title of this thread, I have nothing else to say, as I think that is very petty.

**To the OP: **

You are a brave woman and have probably overcome more than many of us here could ever say we have… and for the I applaud you. :clapping:

My point Debora was the number of very similar threads you will find here on CAF focused on homosexuality and “identity”. They spring up about every 4 days.

Why if it’s just ‘identity’ do we not see so many other Catholics starting forums and wanting to talk about being Brazilian Catholics, Heterosexual Catholics, Softball playing Catholics, Engineering Catholics, etc.

We’ve bloated the concept of “identity” and in all this confusion we’ve lost the true practical significance of knowing that our only consequential identity is that we are children of God.

 

[Edward_H]

Still don’t know how this info about yourself has anything to do with the OP’s experiences and message she has shared with us, but alright. I’m glad for you and your wife that you are able to stay chaste/celibate while away from each other.

Thought it might be important to sharpen the meaning of chastity. That’s usually an important thing to get squared away in any discussion. Terms.

 

[Edward_H]

And the other term that I am complaining is not well grounded enough is “identity”

The only identifying property we will worry about when we die isn’t being Brazilian or heterosexual…or anything else.

And so that’s why I am wondering whether a re-ordered focus would be helpful.

 

[Bluegoat]

The reason you don’t see threads about people elf-identifying as “mother” is because no one has a problem with it.

We all use labels to identify ourselves, and they can all be a problem if we subsume ourselves in them. But they can also be helpful. Really accepting a label like “mother” can help us grow into a position that can be difficult and require a new way of thinking. A label like “alcoholic” can help us remember what we need to be careful of.

 

[Edward_H]

The reason you don’t see threads about people elf-identifying as “mother” is because no one has a problem with it.

We all use labels to identify ourselves, and they can all be a problem if we subsume ourselves in them. But they can also be helpful. Really accepting a label like “mother” can help us grow into a position that can be difficult and require a new way of thinking. A label like “alcoholic” can help us remember what we need to be careful of.

Yes, but I wonder whether some of our labels and identities are contrstructed.

Are all identities equally useful in terms of our supernatural ends? Family oriented ones seem useful because they remind us of Trinitarian union.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My point Debora was the number of very similar threads you will find here on CAF focused on homosexuality and “identity”. They spring up about every 4 days.

Amen, brother.

Why if it’s just ‘identity’ do we not see so many other Catholics starting forums and wanting to talk about being Brazilian Catholics, Heterosexual Catholics, Softball playing Catholics, Engineering Catholics, etc.

We’ve bloated the concept of “identity” and in all this confusion we’ve lost the true practical significance of knowing that our only consequential identity is that we are children of God.

Yes. It’s a contemporary trend. We’ve lost not only our primary identity as children of God (which is the Church’s emphasis and the emphasis of Jesus Himself), but we have also lost our secondary identity as community (nation, neighborhood, church). The Almighty “I” – the individual idolized, the notion of any Self as an enclosed system without reference to others, let alone to a divinity – is something recalled in the two articles I quoted.

The part that the OP got spot-on correct was the reality, the truth, of each individual Catholic/Christian as both saint and sinner. This is in line with Catholic theology, and also corresponds to how the Church views herself, the Church as a body. The part that is less helpful is the label, because while it is helpful for me to remember in my journey that I remain a sinner, it undermines and diverts that journey to focus on any particular sin/behavior as my “identity.” It does not promote my repudiation of sin to identify as a fornicator (if that were my sin). There is a difference between acknowledging humbly how often I fall, and am prone to falling (attracted to sexual sin), and identifying with my temptations. The latter encourages what is called in theology attachment to the sin, even subconsciously.

Paul tells us to “Put on the New Man (Woman).” Ephesians 4:22-24. It is important that the context of Paul’s focus was not only the individual qua ‘new person in Christ,’ but the transformed relationships with others that the converted Christian was to espouse and identify with.

 

[Debora123]

Thought it might be important to sharpen the meaning of chastity. That’s usually an important thing to get squared away in any discussion. Terms.

?

The OP seems to get the whole chastity thing down pretty well, but ok.

 

[Edward_H]

?

The OP seems to get the whole chastity thing down pretty well, but ok.

No. One cannot live chastely as a homosexual, and still not be sinning in sex. One can live celibately as a homosexual.

 

[Edward_H]

Amen, brother.

Yes. It’s a contemporary trend. We’ve lost not only our primary identity as children of God (which is the Church’s emphasis and the emphasis of Jesus Himself), but we have also lost our secondary identity as community (nation, neighborhood, church). The Almighty “I” – the individual idolized, the notion of any Self as an enclosed system without reference to others, let alone to a divinity – is something recalled in the two articles I quoted.

The part that the OP got spot-on correct was the reality, the truth, of each individual Catholic/Christian as both saint and sinner. This is in line with Catholic theology, and also corresponds to how the Church views herself, the Church as a body. The part that is less helpful is the label, because while it is helpful for me to remember in my journey that I remain a sinner, it undermines and diverts that journey to focus on any particular sin/behavior as my “identity.” It does not promote my repudiation of sin to identify as a fornicator (if that were my sin). There is a difference between acknowledging humbly how often I fall, and am prone to falling (attracted to sexual sin), and identifying with my temptations. The latter encourages what is called in theology attachment to the sin, even subconsciously.

Paul tells us to “Put on the New Man (Woman).” Ephesians 4:22-24. It is important that the context of Paul’s focus was not only the individual qua ‘new person in Christ,’ but the transformed relationships with others that the converted Christian was to espouse and identify with.

This is all said so well. Thank you.

 

[Debora123]

My point Debora was the number of very similar threads you will find here on CAF focused on homosexuality and “identity”. They spring up about every 4 days.

Why if it’s just ‘identity’ do we not see so many other Catholics starting forums and wanting to talk about being Brazilian Catholics, Heterosexual Catholics, Softball playing Catholics, Engineering Catholics, etc.

We’ve bloated the concept of “identity” and in all this confusion we’ve lost the true practical significance of knowing that our only consequential identity is that we are children of God.

The reasons people don’t start threads about their identity as a mother, for example (or a softball player, or an engineer), is because it’s not a controversial issue and it’s not a daily struggle for your soul. Someone COULD start a thread about it, and I highly doubt you’d go in there and start lecturing them for it, but no one does because it’s not the same type of issue as being a homosexual.

I don’t know the woman who started this thread, but it seems like she’s overcome a huge obstacle and is carrying a heavy cross - it also seems like she is living chastely and putting her desires aside to follow Jesus. She is brave and shares her story with us and speaks of her struggles. Why are we criticizing her? Because she admits she’s a homosexual?

My guess is she started this thread in hopes of getting some acceptance and support from us. What a great opportunity to applaud someone who has gone through such a difficult experience in order to follow Christ and do things right. What a great opportunity to receive this type of person with open arms and compassion and understanding, and offer words of support and encouragement that will help her keep fighting her battle.

…Instead we sit on our high horses and lecture her for having done/said absolutely nothing wrong. It’s sad, really.

 

[Debora123]

No. One cannot live chastely as a homosexual, and still not be sinning in sex. One can live celibately as a homosexual.

Maybe you should re-read her post. I’m pretty sure she’s celibate.

 

[Edward_H]

Maybe you should re-read her post. I’m pretty sure she’s celibate.

Oh…I thought the title of this thread read: “Why I identify as homosexual even while living chastely”

 

[Edward_H]

The reasons people don’t start threads about their identity as a mother, for example (or a softball player, or an engineer), is because it’s not a controversial issue and it’s not a daily struggle for your soul. Someone COULD start a thread about it, and I highly doubt you’d go in there and start lecturing them for it, but no one does because it’s not the same type of issue as being a homosexual.

I don’t know the woman who started this thread, but it seems like she’s overcome a huge obstacle and is carrying a heavy cross - it also seems like she is living chastely and putting her desires aside to follow Jesus. She is brave and shares her story with us and speaks of her struggles. Why are we criticizing her? Because she admits she’s a homosexual?

My guess is she started this thread in hopes of getting some acceptance and support from us. What a great opportunity to applaud someone who has gone through such a difficult experience in order to follow Christ and do things right. What a great opportunity to receive this type of person with open arms and compassion and understanding, and offer words of support and encouragement that will help her keep fighting her battle.

…Instead we sit on our high horses and lecture her for having done/said absolutely nothing wrong. It’s sad, really.

The woman is living celibately. Please struggle to understand the substantial difference.

Go read Elizabeth’s post the whole thing…it is all there.

You don’t seem to know the difference between celibacy, living chastely, compassion and what really amounts to lazy indifference. “receive this person with open arms”.

Of course you receive this person and all persons with open arms and the truth. You don’t allow someone to construct a truth that’s not true.

You’re a piece of work. I am not criticizing her. I am pointing out the futility and wrong headedness of posts about homosexuality and identity. We’ve seen a million such posts.

Believing that resolution lies in a false identity can not bring serenity.

Compassion is wanting and working for the true good of someone, not in encouraging someone to walk down a rat hole searching for an identity that is a falsehood.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes, but I wonder whether some of our labels and identities are contrstructed.

Are all identities equally useful in terms of our supernatural ends? Family oriented ones seem useful because they remind us of Trinitarian union.

I have no doubt that many of our identities are constructed. I used to be a soldier, and there is no doubt that is a constructed identity. People don’t flip out if you identify yourself that way though. And as for being supernaturally useful - well, sometimes it is probably a positive hindrance to one’s relationship with God, and other times it’s a major opportunity to deepen it.

Identifying as homosexual has its uses and its limits. It is descriptive of a certain type of experience, one that may be at the forefront of a persons everyday struggle. If you are going to say a person can’t use it, then you probably should disallow the use of the term alcoholic as well. Also an identity that can be negatively embraced, or the key to an individual living in a more healthy way.

I had a good friend who thought that one should not use a term like homosexual. He was never able to get his relationships under control, or his life. He was constantly looking for relationships with women that would never work, and which were hurtful to others. He was putting off making decisions about vocation in life because he thought he should marry. He was also constantly getting into “friendships” which although physically innocent were very emotionally dangerous and inappropriate for him (and often the other people involved too.) And what was most dangerous was that in setting up a side of his experience that he ignored and denied, he was able to put his life into boxes in a way that turned out to be very negative. It didn’t lead to unchastity, but it did allow him to ignore other types of sins.

He would have been far better off to have identified himself as a homosexual, that it was likely something that would be long term, and act on that information. Maybe it would even have been possible to eventually drop labels altogether, but not before getting a really close look at and accepting his situation.

No one would tut tut a person who identifies as having an ongoing aggression problem, or being a drug addict, and using that information to live a Christian life.

 

[raaucoin]

To those of you who are encourageing and pray for me, a sincere thank you. Just a couple of points for clarification.

1. I do not ANNOUNCE that I am homosexual. First it IS a concern of not causing scandal. However, often times in certain circumstances people (even well meaning) push the issue of why not married. In many cases, answering that the Lord has called me to the single life is not enough.Some people just don’t get it. And in the course of conversation, if it is otherwise respectful, well meaning people insist on introducing one to there sons, grandsons or that sweet man who is single and delivers their mail. Because I just haven’t found the right one. There comes a point when not to be completely honest is DIShonest.
2. Did God make me this way? Quite frankly, I don’t know. And I don’t care. The fact is that I find myself in this situation and WHAT I DO WITH IT IS MY CHOICE. I choose to live my life under the care and guidance of my Pastor, Bishop, and the teaching athority of the Church. Frankly, I don’t have the intelligence, time or energy to ask “WHY?” anymore.
3. I have frequent contact with religious who profess not only a vow of Celibacy, or chastity, but Ceibate chastity. Celibacy refering to never marrying. And Chastity as in living with the sexual part of themselves according to their station in life (unmarried) meaning no sexual activity.( Of course someone married is called to be chaste according to their station in life) I will never marry(so yes I remain celibate) And i choose not to be sexually active with myself or anyone else outside of marriage. (chastity). Never mind the definitions- I aint getting married and I aint having sex-use whatever word you like.
   4.I started this thread not to speak for every person who has or has had SSA. I did so because frequently it is asked why does one identify themselves with sinful behavior or the possibility of a certain sin. I answered from only my experience. I am definite that as complex as the whole issue is some would relate and others not.
   5.Someone posted something to the effect that i posted as if I dismissed men. If I misread or misunderstood I apologize. But I assure you. After reading and reflecting and embracing JPII’s Theology of the Body. I don’t dismiss men .In coming home to the Body of Christ, I would not be able to embrace our Eucharistic Lord, and communion with Him and the many parts of the one Body if I dismissed men or anyone else. In fact there was a point in my life when I had very little contact with men. One of the gifts of healing from the Holy Spirit I have received is in realizing the important role of men, and the way I experience the Father’s love through men in a way I couldn’t from women. As I said, I have an intimacy with Jesus not only as my God but as a Man. I have placed my trust in and obedience to men who are spiritual Fathers to me. And men are very much a part of my support system in faith.
4. To those who beleive that I should go farther in discarding my past. I agree! Conversion for me is not a one time event. It has been and continues to be a process of living what I know God is calling me to do today and remaining open to the Holy Spirit and where He is bringing me. In remaining opened to the Spirit, discerning with (name removed by moderator)ut from my pastor, bishop and spiritual director, I very well may feel differently about some things tomorrow than I do today. Until then, I ask you to pray for me if Christian charity is your motivation.
   7.There are many in the world who think they can’t have a relationship with the Lord and with His Church until absolutely every issue is resolved-including that they “identify” as homosexual. And many of those will be lost if we as Church don’t encourage them to “come as you are” trusting that (if they truly seek the will of God and are committed to finding and following His will) the Power of God is fantastically transforming.
   I am not what I will be, but by His grace- I’m not what I use to be.

Until the day that I become all that God intends me to be,no scientists, researchers, nor armchair theologians will keep me from my Lord again. To insure that, I’m just going to stay close to the teachings of the Church. Hers is the only opinion that matters to me. And I’ll leave the interpretations of her teaching to those she gives authority to do so.

 

[Debora123]

Oh…I thought the title of this thread read: “Why I identify as homosexual even while living chastely”

What’s with the big letters? I know what the title it. You’ve been criticizing it like crazy.

If you could point out to me where she says she’s not celibate, that would be great, thank you. She says she’s left the gay lifestyle and is following the way of the Lord. From that, one can easily conclude that she’s not married and that she’s not going around having sex (which she’s not). What more do you want?

 

[Debora123]

The woman is living celibately. Please struggle to understand the substantial difference.

Go read Elizabeth’s post the whole thing…it is all there.

You don’t seem to know the difference between celibacy, living chastely, compassion and what really amounts to lazy indifference. “receive this person with open arms”.

Of course you receive this person and all persons with open arms and the truth. You don’t allow someone to construct a truth that’s not true.

You’re a piece of work. I am not criticizing her. I am pointing out the futility and wrong headedness of posts about homosexuality and identity. We’ve seen a million such posts.

Believing that resolution lies in a false identity can not bring serenity.

Compassion is wanting and working for the true good of someone, not in encouraging someone to walk down a rat hole searching for an identity that is a falsehood.

I’m a piece of work? Thanks for the… compliment.

I see nothing wrong with her posts. Only with yours.

 

[Debora123]

To those of you who are encourageing and pray for me, a sincere thank you. Just a couple of points for clarification.

1. I do not ANNOUNCE that I am homosexual. First it IS a concern of not causing scandal. However, often times in certain circumstances people (even well meaning) push the issue of why not married. In many cases, answering that the Lord has called me to the single life is not enough.Some people just don’t get it. And in the course of conversation, if it is otherwise respectful, well meaning people insist on introducing one to there sons, grandsons or that sweet man who is single and delivers their mail. Because I just haven’t found the right one. There comes a point when not to be completely honest is DIShonest.
2. Did God make me this way? Quite frankly, I don’t know. And I don’t care. The fact is that I find myself in this situation and WHAT I DO WITH IT IS MY CHOICE. I choose to live my life under the care and guidance of my Pastor, Bishop, and the teaching athority of the Church. Frankly, I don’t have the intelligence, time or energy to ask “WHY?” anymore.
3. I have frequent contact with religious who profess not only a vow of Celibacy, or chastity, but Ceibate chastity. Celibacy refering to never marrying. And Chastity as in living with the sexual part of themselves according to their station in life (unmarried) meaning no sexual activity.( Of course someone married is called to be chaste according to their station in life) I will never marry(so yes I remain celibate) And i choose not to be sexually active with myself or anyone else outside of marriage. (chastity). Never mind the definitions- I aint getting married and I aint having sex-use whatever word you like.
   4.I started this thread not to speak for every person who has or has had SSA. I did so because frequently it is asked why does one identify themselves with sinful behavior or the possibility of a certain sin. I answered from only my experience. I am definite that as complex as the whole issue is some would relate and others not.
   5.Someone posted something to the effect that i posted as if I dismissed men. If I misread or misunderstood I apologize. But I assure you. After reading and reflecting and embracing JPII’s Theology of the Body. I don’t dismiss men .In coming home to the Body of Christ, I would not be able to embrace our Eucharistic Lord, and communion with Him and the many parts of the one Body if I dismissed men or anyone else. In fact there was a point in my life when I had very little contact with men. One of the gifts of healing from the Holy Spirit I have received is in realizing the important role of men, and the way I experience the Father’s love through men in a way I couldn’t from women. As I said, I have an intimacy with Jesus not only as my God but as a Man. I have placed my trust in and obedience to men who are spiritual Fathers to me. And men are very much a part of my support system in faith.
4. To those who beleive that I should go farther in discarding my past. I agree! Conversion for me is not a one time event. It has been and continues to be a process of living what I know God is calling me to do today and remaining open to the Holy Spirit and where He is bringing me. In remaining opened to the Spirit, discerning with (name removed by moderator)ut from my pastor, bishop and spiritual director, I very well may feel differently about some things tomorrow than I do today. Until then, I ask you to pray for me if Christian charity is your motivation.
   7.There are many in the world who think they can’t have a relationship with the Lord and with His Church until absolutely every issue is resolved-including that they “identify” as homosexual. And many of those will be lost if we as Church don’t encourage them to “come as you are” trusting that (if they truly seek the will of God and are committed to finding and following His will) the Power of God is fantastically transforming.
   I am not what I will be, but by His grace- I’m not what I use to be.

Until the day that I become all that God intends me to be,no scientists, researchers, nor armchair theologians will keep me from my Lord again. To insure that, I’m just going to stay close to the teachings of the Church. Hers is the only opinion that matters to me. And I’ll leave the interpretations of her teaching to those she gives authority to do so.

 

[Edward_H]

To those of you who are encourageing and pray for me, a sincere thank you. Just a couple of points for clarification.

1. I do not ANNOUNCE that I am homosexual. First it IS a concern of not causing scandal. However, often times in certain circumstances people (even well meaning) push the issue of why not married. In many cases, answering that the Lord has called me to the single life is not enough.Some people just don’t get it. And in the course of conversation, if it is otherwise respectful, well meaning people insist on introducing one to there sons, grandsons or that sweet man who is single and delivers their mail. Because I just haven’t found the right one. There comes a point when not to be completely honest is DIShonest.
2. Did God make me this way? Quite frankly, I don’t know. And I don’t care. The fact is that I find myself in this situation and WHAT I DO WITH IT IS MY CHOICE. I choose to live my life under the care and guidance of my Pastor, Bishop, and the teaching athority of the Church. Frankly, I don’t have the intelligence, time or energy to ask “WHY?” anymore.
3. I have frequent contact with religious who profess not only a vow of Celibacy, or chastity, but Ceibate chastity. Celibacy refering to never marrying. And Chastity as in living with the sexual part of themselves according to their station in life (unmarried) meaning no sexual activity.( Of course someone married is called to be chaste according to their station in life) I will never marry(so yes I remain celibate) And i choose not to be sexually active with myself or anyone else outside of marriage. (chastity). Never mind the definitions- I aint getting married and I aint having sex-use whatever word you like.
   4.I started this thread not to speak for every person who has or has had SSA. I did so because frequently it is asked why does one identify themselves with sinful behavior or the possibility of a certain sin. I answered from only my experience. I am definite that as complex as the whole issue is some would relate and others not.
   5.Someone posted something to the effect that i posted as if I dismissed men. If I misread or misunderstood I apologize. But I assure you. After reading and reflecting and embracing JPII’s Theology of the Body. I don’t dismiss men .In coming home to the Body of Christ, I would not be able to embrace our Eucharistic Lord, and communion with Him and the many parts of the one Body if I dismissed men or anyone else. In fact there was a point in my life when I had very little contact with men. One of the gifts of healing from the Holy Spirit I have received is in realizing the important role of men, and the way I experience the Father’s love through men in a way I couldn’t from women. As I said, I have an intimacy with Jesus not only as my God but as a Man. I have placed my trust in and obedience to men who are spiritual Fathers to me. And men are very much a part of my support system in faith.
4. To those who beleive that I should go farther in discarding my past. I agree! Conversion for me is not a one time event. It has been and continues to be a process of living what I know God is calling me to do today and remaining open to the Holy Spirit and where He is bringing me. In remaining opened to the Spirit, discerning with (name removed by moderator)ut from my pastor, bishop and spiritual director, I very well may feel differently about some things tomorrow than I do today. Until then, I ask you to pray for me if Christian charity is your motivation.
   7.There are many in the world who think they can’t have a relationship with the Lord and with His Church until absolutely every issue is resolved-including that they “identify” as homosexual. And many of those will be lost if we as Church don’t encourage them to “come as you are” trusting that (if they truly seek the will of God and are committed to finding and following His will) the Power of God is fantastically transforming.
   I am not what I will be, but by His grace- I’m not what I use to be.

Until the day that I become all that God intends me to be,no scientists, researchers, nor armchair theologians will keep me from my Lord again. To insure that, I’m just going to stay close to the teachings of the Church. Hers is the only opinion that matters to me. And I’ll leave the interpretations of her teaching to those she gives authority to do so.

1. Regarding announcing. Here again there’s too much focus on your preferences vs your identity. This is not something to announce - not because of any potential scandal - it’s just because the whole question is self-focused. Live as though you are a child of God and the world will see the Gospel in your actions, in your serenity, in your cheerfulness, and your self giving. We focus on ourselves far too much.

And if you’re living celibately…there can be no scandal. You’re living faithfully as a child of God. Rest easy. End of issue. Focus on others.

1. Regarding “did God make me like this.” Great and bold and courageous answer. Offer Him your worries, doubts, or whatever. Accept His will as a child of God. And obey Him.
2. Regarding “Conversion for me is not a one time event.” Beautiful. Absolutely. We’re on the inclined plane, struggling to Him, helping as many others as we can. Well said.

 

[Edward_H]

We really do focus on ourselves way too much.

Consider Jesus on the Cross…amid all his tribulations…He is still “solving problems” for others even on the Cross. He’s giving His Mother (our Mother) to St John for his benefit. He is giving St John to His Mother for her safeguarding and care.

This element in the Gospel is a superabundant message to us…to forget about ourselves, our identities, our worries, our insecurities…and turn to helping others. Too much inward focus tends to have a self-reinforcing aspect to it.

We never seem to “solve our problem” permanently…and then we only add more self-directed energy to it. Instead we should focus on God and serve Him by helping others, very quietly.