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jomoco
Guest
Hey Speaktruth,
Are you implying that God did not create homosexuals with a specific intent known only to Him?
How do you know this?
What if you’re wrong in your flawed assumptions of God’s intent and purpose?
jomoco
- Status
Are you implying that God did not create homosexuals with a specific intent known only to Him?
How do you know this?
What if you’re wrong in your flawed assumptions of God’s intent and purpose?
jomoco
R
raaucoin
Guest
My friend, respectfully I disagree and I know that we can go round and round about this.I do refer to myself as someone with SSA. If you read my first post, the definition of “homosexual” I learned and yes applied to myself did not necessarily include sexual activity.If I were in a room full of people who only understood the terms homosexual, gay or lesbian to mean someone sinning sexually, then no. I would not use that term.
But when I am with someone who desperately needs to know that they are understood, and are looking for someone who has walked in their shoes-not to validate anything sinful; quite the opposite-to know that holiness in this area is possible, I will communicate that with them in the language they understand.
Today, my language is the language of faith, salvation and redemption. But I do speak the language of the “gay ghetto”. I lived there for nearly 25 years.And for those of us who are looking to turn our lives back to the Lord,after a lifetime of thinking,speaking, and living in a certain way, saying I have SSA is not the same as saying I’ve lived what you have lived.(With the grace of God many with SSA never enter that way of life).If telling someone I am a chaste lesbian helps open the door for them, I’ll say “I am a lesbian who lives according to Church teaching regarding sexuality.”
The Catechism states
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
The catechism uses the word homosexual and says we are called to chastity… and should approach Christian perfection. It says nothing about renouncing any part of our lives- other than the sin- that makes up our identity and doing what every other Christian is to do-strive for perfection. I am familiar with Courage. I visited their website often as I heard the call of the Holy Spirit. It was most helpful. Courage offers a program of Recovery to help those who struggle. I’m not struggling. I am at peace and embrace the life I live now.
The pontifical council endorses Courage for" helping homosexuals(there’s that word again) live lives according to the laws of God and His Church." It nowhere says that Courage’s way is the only way.
Under the guidance of my pastor (who is extremely conservative and orthodox- by the way) my bishop and Spiritual director, I have not discerned at this time that I have a problem as you stated. But I know enough that discerning the call of God is on-going. If you honestly believe I have a problem, please pray for me and especially for those who are trying to find their way home.
R
raaucoin
Guest
And!::: No I wouldn’t say "HI , I am a daughter, a Cajun, a slightly overweight person or any thing else. " Usually in the context of my daily life I say “HI! I’m Rhonda” The absolute first thing I try to present about myself is that I live a life based on the Gospel. When its 103 degrees outside, I try to remember to bring bottled water in case I see someone walking or stranded with an automobile that’s broken down. But even then, I don’t walk up and say,“Hi, I am a Christian. " I say " hey how about some water!”
No I don’t say “Hey how ya doing? Ya know I’m a Lesbian, right?” But if someone is interested in Why I have a bottle of water in my car, I’ll tell them. It’s because He said when I give water to others, I give it to Him. If they say thankl you I say “give the thanks to God”
If someone says didn’t I meet you at Pride Fest 10 yrs ago, I will give them the update as to why I haven’t been there lately.
Do I think I am some amazing Lesbian Creation of God? No. I am an amazing creation because I am a wonderfully made child of God. Nature, Nurture, demonic influence. I DON’T CARE.For some reason I am a homosexual or some one with SSA. I don’t care what you call it. To me it is all the same. That’s the language I know.What matters is how I live. And I live according to the will of God.
No I don’t say “Hey how ya doing? Ya know I’m a Lesbian, right?” But if someone is interested in Why I have a bottle of water in my car, I’ll tell them. It’s because He said when I give water to others, I give it to Him. If they say thankl you I say “give the thanks to God”
If someone says didn’t I meet you at Pride Fest 10 yrs ago, I will give them the update as to why I haven’t been there lately.
Do I think I am some amazing Lesbian Creation of God? No. I am an amazing creation because I am a wonderfully made child of God. Nature, Nurture, demonic influence. I DON’T CARE.For some reason I am a homosexual or some one with SSA. I don’t care what you call it. To me it is all the same. That’s the language I know.What matters is how I live. And I live according to the will of God.
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michelleds
Guest
There is wisdom here. RAA, our paths run in a very similar path. My priest and I have talked extensively about these issues as well. before my conversion, i was well-known in a large circle of professional acquaintances as being an open lesbian. It wasn’t really a matter of “announcing” anything post-conversion…people found out that I was converting to Catholicism and those same ppl knew or thought they knew the Church’s belief about homosexuality. They asked. I answered.
Altho my priest told me that I am under no obligation to explain or answer these types of personal questions, I believe that I do have a responsibility. In part, because I myself put my sexuality into the conversation by being “out”, and in part, because if I can be a witness, role model, testimony or any other way used by God to reach someone, then I pray that God uses me. If I just sit in my little corner being chaste, well, that’s maybe not quite what God wants. If he wants me to write a book, go on a speaking tour, or just make myself available on CAF, then I’m open to that.
I do not identify as gay or lesbian but if someone came to me and said, “I think I’m gay but I’m also Catholic, what do I do?” I would share my personal story with them; I would tell that person that I lived as a lesbian for 20 odd years. but in my head and heart, I am not a lesbian. I refuse to be defined by my sexuality.
For me, personally, I believe that homosexuality is one of Satan’s tools. I believe that I had a weakness that he exploited from the time I was quite young, certainly by my early teens. that weakness allowed him to get a tiny little sliver of a nail wedged into my soul. He worked at it, chipping away, until I finally fell. I’m not at all saying that this is true for everyone, how could I possibly know that. but it is what I believe about myself (and FWIW, I’ve actually had this conversation re the genesis of my “gayness” with my mom, a youth minister from my teens, and my priest, and we are all in agreement altho I hasten to add again, for me.)
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Blacksword
Guest
This is very personal, totally off topic, and uncalled for. I’ve read some of the threads about whether wearing a bikini or mostly anything other than a nun’s habits was a sin, I’ve read a number of Debra’s responses on those threads, and don’t recall any other advocating the nudist lifestyle as you seem to suggest!
Please refrain from such off-topic and personal attacks though, it’s uncharitable and unnecessary.
D
Debora123
Guest
Thanks for having my back. Good day at work!HEY!You were one of the people I was thinking about who gave me something to think about! Don’t loose credibility by being nasty. If you didn’t mean to be nasty, then you should know that it sure comes off that way.
Everybody play nice. I’m going to work
D
Debora123
Guest
YES!
R
raaucoin
Guest
You are correct,I usually introduce myself by saying “Hi, I’m Rhonda”. If it’s football season, I simply say “WHO DAT!” (hope I get to do that this year but that’s another thread). Like you, I also don’t discuss the intimacies of my life with just anyone. If I do it is only in a context that is appropriate, such as I’ve mentioned in previous post.
. As some one who has definitely stepped outside of that life I have both feet planted firmly where Jesus has planted me.
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raaucoin
Guest
Just standing for what’s right–.you’re welcomeThanks for having my back. Good day at work!
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Defender1
Guest
I never said what the church taught or what did it not teach on the matter of homosexuals in general I used scripture to support the church teachings on condemning the act of homosexuality . I also used common sense and logic to explain why being a homosexual cannot be what God wants .
Pelosi Catholic meaning liberal Catholic I called you because you seem to be embracing homosexuality and the church does not do that . Troll? really? The big man upstairs certainly would not think so ,and as for you I suggest you read Matthew 12 :36-37 which says that you will have to render an account for every careless word you speak by your words you will be acquitted and by your words you will b e condemned. So cool it with the name calling you will have to answer to God for it later . Amen?
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Debora123
Guest
No, I am not embracing homosexual behavior and acknowledge it as a grave sin. Maybe you didn’t read my posts before accusing me of being a liberal Catholic?
My view of this matter is the same as that of the Catholic Church. Homosexual orientation in and of itself is not a sin. It is not a sin because it is not freely chosen. Only acting on it is a sin.
I thought you were a troll because you were making these claims:
- It is the parent’s fault when a child is born handy caped/with mental disorder/with birth defects
- People choose to have a homosexual orientation, no differently than one would choose to have an abortion
- People with a homosexual orientation make themselves that way
- Having a homosexual orientation is a sin
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Edward_H
Guest
Not trying to be nasty, but I know sometimes I can come off terse or worse. There’s an overly long, now closed forum on modesty, and it went around and around and around and around because someone wanted to see in writing an exacting standard for modesty.HEY!
Everybody play nice. I’m going to work
I tried to point out that the Church treats us like adults, and expects of us reason.
But it’s a closed topic, Thanks be to God, our Almighty and merciful Father.
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Edward_H
Guest
I will and sincere thanks for the reminder. No more posts during a short meal.This is very personal, totally off topic, and uncalled for. I’ve read some of the threads about whether wearing a bikini or mostly anything other than a nun’s habits was a sin, I’ve read a number of Debra’s responses on those threads, and don’t recall any other advocating the nudist lifestyle as you seem to suggest!
Please refrain from such off-topic and personal attacks though, it’s uncharitable and unnecessary.
I just found the complaint against standard seekers ironic, given what had transpired elsewhere over a 70 PAGE forum on modesty.
Go read the actual exchanges if you’re in need of some severe mortification.
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speakttruth
Guest
What you are calling a sin is the attraction. SSA same sex attraction. It’s what they mean by homosexual orientation. That is not a sin. You are wrong. If you are not married and have the normal attraction to the opposite sex and act on it, it is a sin. So the attraction is not chosen, that is why they call it disordered. Not the person, the sexual attraction is. It is out of order in the Natural law. They didn’t choose this problem, but some of them choose to act out the temptation. Just like an alcoholic who is tempted to drink, isn’t the sin, it is the drinking, the action that makes it sinful. You don’t know your Catholic doctrine of this. I have a son with SSA, so I am well informed. Go on the Courage website. The only ministry approved by the Pontificate that is for people who want to be chaste who have SSA.
www.couragerc.net
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speakttruth
Guest
I don’t understand your question. Did God create prostitutes with a specific intent known only to Him? He created the human with free will, which means we don’t have to listen to him, but if we don’t then we can’t be with him. That is why we can choose hell, because of sin. What makes a homosexual? The only thing is the sexual preference. God is a creator, homosexuals can’t create anything. You can’t create anything in a area that is used for an exit.
Did you not read Genesis? He created them man and women, male and female. What can you create without a female and male part. God doesn’t make mistakes. He gives us the example of creation when we have a child. You think God is stupid? Does he allow sin so that good can come out of evil? He says he did. So some people have different predispositions to sin. If Had a predisposition to want to beat the du du out of some one, Should I do it? Same thing with the sin of homosexuality in action. God doesn’t sin, we do. By disobedience.
Jesus reiterated in the New Testament. It’ under marriage. He says a man shall leave his wife and they shall come together, (sexual relations) and be as one. How does a homosexual come together and be as one? Back-wards for men, nothing happens except sexual pleasure and for women, just nothing except sexual pleasure. That is all what it is really about. You can’t produce anything with just sexual pleasure. It’s not self giving and you aren’t going to ever bring a child into the world to nurture and love it, because God only made us for one way, man and women. What is so hard to understand what is plainly planted on your body. Any argument against the natural law of a man and women, is just an excuse to sin and that is not going to fly in heaven.
Hope this helps.
J
jomoco
Guest
So, is it reasonable to assume you don’t believe God made homosexuals period? That they are somehow evilly mutated versions of sinful men and women possessed by devils?
Shall we lock bells around their necks to allow the faithful ample warning of their evil presence amongst us?
Maroon them on an island to keep their contagion from spreading among the faithful flawed majority?
jomoco
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Debora123
Guest
Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. You misunderstood me severely, lol. When I said “you are wrong” I was referring to the person who said having a homosexual orientation was both a choice, and a sin. :whacky:
It is not. Only the action is.
…same as you said.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
The Church does not believe that God “made” (created) homosexuals as homosexuals, per se – with a specific disordered desire which opposes the natural order of the universe which God did create. The Church’s position is that such an attraction, however it develops, is of unknown causes. (“genesis unknown,” from the Catechism)
There is no Church position that states that those with same-sex attraction were “born that way.”
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Debora123
Guest
No one knows what causes a person to have a homosexual orientation. Some studies suggest it is in their genetics, other studies suggest that it is environmental or developmental factors in very early life.
But that is not important.
The important thing is to remember that whatever the case may be, we need to know and understand that it was not something that was freely chosen, and therefore cannot be a sin in and of itself.
The sin only comes when this tendency is acted upon. For that reason, we are not to support gay marriage or the gay life style.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
And universally, all reputable studies of sexuality in general suggest complexity, not either/or, this “or” that. That is because sexuality is multi-faceted, as Melinda Selmys herself has experienced, undoubtedly michelleds has as well. Not just homosexual attraction, but heterosexual attraction, I might add.
Again, that may be the connection you draw, but that is a little broad. The Catechism actually refers to the unknown genesis of deep-seated tendencies. That would suggest lack of choice among those more ‘hard-wired’ in their attraction, shall we say. But the Catechism does not say that attraction has no elements of choice to it. There are actually degrees of attraction in sexuality.
The reason that the term ‘choice’ is too broad is that sexual attraction is dynamic, not static. It is not a “given” which is some passive part of our personality development. Sexuality involves two-way response and validation, as well as initiation/invitation. Even in the lower animal kingdom (not to mention us higher animals), a great deal of subtlety is often involved – chemically, ritually. And for us humans, the psyche is hugely involved, and often the dominant factor, depending on the personalities involved.
I have not read a single reputable peer-validated study on sexuality that suggests that one is born with it, inherits it, or it is strictly a passive aspect of personal development.
Btw, no one is arguing, I think, on the focus of compassion and the understanding of what sin is and is not. But do not lump all attraction as excluding all choice. That is not what has been said in the Catechism. Overall in the philosophical underpinnings of Catholic moral theology, some choices are incremental. The same is true in secular psychological understanding, which admits of unconscious or subconscious factors to those choices. (I choose to befriend someone, become psychologically intimate with them after their apparent, even unspoken invitation, because I have a comfort level with them, they and I fill mutual needs, etc. Response itself involves choice, and a series of validated responses early in life can result in an attraction that becomes ‘permanent’ or evident by adolescence, when it is eroticized.)
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