Why I identify as homosexual even while living chastely

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Elizabeth502 said:
And universally, all reputable studies of sexuality in general suggest complexity, not either/or, this “or” that. That is because sexuality is multi-faceted, as Melinda Selmys herself has experienced, undoubtedly michelleds has as well. Not just homosexual attraction, but heterosexual attraction, I might add.
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Yes, it could be a mixture of multiple factors playing a role in multiple different ways. And that is my personal theory. I don’t think there is a simple answer as to what causes it.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Again, that may be the connection you draw, but that is a little broad. The Catechism actually refers to the unknown genesis of deep-seated tendencies. That would suggest lack of choice among those more ‘hard-wired’ in their attraction, shall we say. But the Catechism does not say that attraction has no elements of choice to it. There are actually degrees of attraction in sexuality.

The reason that the term ‘choice’ is too broad is that sexual attraction is dynamic, not static. It is not a “given” which is some passive part of our personality development. Sexuality involves two-way response and validation, as well as initiation/invitation. Even in the lower animal kingdom (not to mention us higher animals), a great deal of subtlety is often involved – chemically, ritually. And for us humans, the psyche is hugely involved, and often the dominant factor, depending on the personalities involved.

I have not read a single reputable peer-validated study on sexuality that suggests that one is born with it, inherits it, or it is strictly a passive aspect of personal development.

Btw, no one is arguing, I think, on the focus of compassion and the understanding of what sin is and is not. But do not lump all attraction as excluding all choice. That is not what has been said in the Catechism. Overall in the philosophical underpinnings of Catholic moral theology, some choices are incremental. The same is true in secular psychological understanding, which admits of unconscious or subconscious factors to those choices. (I choose to befriend someone, become psychologically intimate with them after their apparent, even unspoken invitation, because I have a comfort level with them, they and I fill mutual needs, etc. Response itself involves choice, and a series of validated responses early in life can result in an attraction that becomes ‘permanent’ or evident by adolescence, when it is eroticized.)
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The catechism uses the word choice specifically and I think we can at least all agree that no one wakes up one day and says “You know what? I think I’m going to go ahead and be attracted to the same sex from now on.”

…And person who DOES do this, if any, is probably not right in the head to begin with.
 
raaucoin said:
The Catechism states
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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Is my download from the Vatican website inaccurate? I did not add or subtract anything, nor reverse any order, in the two paragraphs I copied & pasted. Here is what the download says:
Chastity and homosexuality
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2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
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2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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After the word “negligible,” in paragraph 2358, there is no such underlined sentence which you inserted. Can you point me to a more authoritative source, then, so that we all can update & refresh our bookmarks? 🙂
 
The complementarity of the male and female goes further than the obvious physical organ complementarity, it extends to cellular complementarity (egg and sperm), genetic, and even to the immune system.

Ever wonder why a woman’s immune system doesn’t immediately kill all the foreign sperm?

These examples of complementarity…and there are others…provide a converging and strong argument for really “deep seated tendencies” beneath the behavioral level, where our sexuality is expressed. Where our mind, will, and body unite in an act of unity, with procreative effects to boot.

In the face of this evidence of complementarity, other forms of sexual expression need to compete as acceptable to God (not acceptable to merely us and our desires, impressions, opinions, proclivities, habits, body images).

These competing expressions of sexuality include homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, pornography/masturbation, swinging, fetishes, polygamy, transsexuality, etc. etc.

So any real discussion on “deep seated tendencies” needs to be prepared to go very deep and very broad.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
There is only one source, Debora. It is the Catechism. The wording about choice was deliberately removed by the Vatican, in the updated 1997 version (vs. the 1994 version). It’s not there. And the organizaiton ‘dignity’ is not a Catholic-approved organization but an organization which opposes Catholic teaching.
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Those sources quoted the catechism word per word. That’s what I was looking at.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
There is only one source, Debora. It is the Catechism. The wording about choice was deliberately removed by the Vatican, in the updated 1997 version (vs. the 1994 version). It’s not there. And the organizaiton ‘dignity’ is not a Catholic-approved organization but an organization which opposes Catholic teaching.
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So are you saying the Church changed it’s teaching?? :eek:

Just because the wording may have changed in a different edition doesn’t mean it implies something different.
 
raaucoin said:
I have read much on this forum about why someone living chastely would call herself homosexual (gay, lesbian or other) and identify with a sinful act, when someone who has the propensity to murder but doesn’t- doesn’t identify themselves as a murderer (or you can insert whatever sin). At five years old,I didn’t have a word for it, but I knew when I grew up I wasn’t going to be a mommy and daddy I knew i was going to grow up and be a “mommy and mommy”. And I knew somehow I should never say that to anyone. At about 12 or 13yrs, I was mortified to learn that “fags and queers” were generally hated and even more devastated when I learned what those words mean. More than ever I knew to keep my mouth shut. At that time, I wasn’t "sexually " interested in females. I didn’t know what that was. I still just thought I’d grow up, live with a woman and have someone to be close to and who I was special to.I was more comfortable with other girls. I liked taking care of my friends who were girls.As my friends started wanting to have boyfriends, I didn’t. I found other girls that I wanted special friendships with. As I got closer to 15yrs. The sexual attractions started. I talked to my mom and she said it was a “Phase” I’d grow out of that. I never did.She tried but couldn’t make me at ease. I DID NOT WANT TO BE THIS WAY.Some where along the way I learned that it was more appropriate to call “fags and queers” homosexuals. And desperate to understand my “sickness” I turned to the leading association of psychiatrists. In their info.( the “experts”) I learned 2 things that had a great impact:1. homosexuality was no longer considered mental illness.and 2. homosexuals were defined as individuals whose emotional, mental,(psychological) and physical attractions were primarily for those of the same sex.You’ll notice it didn’t specifically say they had sex with…in fact it said they may or may not engage in sexual activity.—That was a turning point for me. I wasn’t “sick”, a freak, a monster. I was a “homosexual” according to the official definition.As I got older, all of my efforts to change those feelings were useless. Depressed and miserable, I came upon new info. that to be happy and well adjusted one should accept and embrace her sexuality and many gay couples lived happy and fulfilling lives. And so I accepted,embraced and entered a relationship. For almost 25 yrs I was an “out” lesbian.
An amazing process inspired by the Holy Spirit led to my conversion of heart and mind and soul . i have returned to the Church and embraced the teaching of the Church and the will of God. I"m active in my parish and live in loving obedience to Christ present in myPastor, Archbishop, and Church.
But the fact of the matter is that according to the definition that I formed my identity with as well as in the eyes of culture and society in which I live, I am a Lesbian. It is not about sex or no sex. It is a matter of how I relate to the world and ways that I can not relate. Sort of like the reasons given for why a man with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies is not suited for the priesthood as has been explained by the Church regarding admission to seminaries.
No I don’t introduce myself as a lesbian to every one I meet. But again, the fact remains that I am primarily attracted on all levels to other females.That by popular definition makes me gay.I can not cut that off of me any more than someone who is straight can cut off that which defines them as heterosexual.If a straight person says “I’m heterosexual” he isn’t saying "I have the tendency to cheat on my wife, or have random sex with strangers or even a sexual encounter outside of marriage. He is simply stating a fact about part of his personhood. Just the same for those of us who say I am gay. We who are and are chaste that identify as such ARE NOT associating ourselves with sinful behavior.
I am also a Cajun woman. It is a part of me- in this case definitely genetically,- and culturally and socially. If I never spoke French again, never ate boudin, or shrimp boulettes again, never fished or hunted again, I would still be Cajun. It is part of how I relate to the world around me. I am a sister to a brother and sister. My relationship with my siblings absolutely causes me to relate to the world in ways that are different than how an only child would. I am not a parent, I relate to the world differently than my sister and brother with children do. I am many things and in everything that I am every aspect comes into play. My emotional, spiritual,social, mental, physical and yes sexual components are always with me. Each of those are expressed differently in whatever situation and to different degrees, but all are integrated as part of who I am.
I also need to say that yes, my homosexuality is a gift. It has taken a while to come to that. But because it is something I have to live with, and deal with it allows me something very real to offer up to the Lord for the sake of His passion.It has allowed me a small share in His agony in the garden. It has afforded me the opportunity to not only say but to live “Father, not my will, but yours…” and it has given me a precious intimacy with Him knowing what its like to have everything in me feel so contrary to what I know God would have me do(or in this case not do).
Now, when I admit to being a lesbian (and yes some people actually ask) my yes to that isn’t a proclamation of a sin, it is a declaration of faith because it is also followed by witness to the teachings of the Church and the awesome Power of God to give us what we need to live as He would have us no matter the issue or cause. I am a lesbian, a professional, a musician, a sister, daughter, an aunt, a friend, a child of God and His Church,A Cajun, an American. In all of those things, I am a sinner and a saint.
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God bless you
 
Elizabeth502 said:
The Church does not believe that God “made” (created) homosexuals as homosexuals, per se – with a specific disordered desire which opposes the natural order of the universe which God did create. The Church’s position is that such an attraction, however it develops, is of unknown causes. (“genesis unknown,” from the Catechism)

There is no Church position that states that those with same-sex attraction were “born that way.”
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Very well said Elizabeth.
 
There is no justifiable way to identify yourself as a “homosexual” and be in God’s favor. I’m certainly not pretending to speak for God, but if you are living a chaste life but still feel attracted to the other sex then you are simply a “sinner” the same as myself and everyone else on these forums. To identify yourself as homosexual you are favoring the acts of homosexuality which is a sin that God speaks against numerous times. I don’t see the point in trying to identify yourself as such. If you do not engage in homosexual activities, you are not a homosexual, simply a sinner. (And again I don’t want to look like I’m sitting here judging you, as I’ve stated before, “I” am a sinner as well as everyone else in here). We’re all in the same boat together, it’s important we all keep one another strong in Christ. I’d remember God’s watching us 24/7 and he knows us inside and out. I’d be careful what I choose to “identify” myself as. When my time comes to stand before the Lord I’d rather be on his compassionate side then his vengeful side. Just sayin.

Peace be with you all
 
From the Vatican’s website, the Catechism.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 
Debora123 said:
The sources I looked at said the same thing:

dignitycanada.org/catechism.html

concernedcatholics.org/homosexuality.htm
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Dignity Canada is affiliated with Dignity USA. Do you know that it is one in the list of dissenting organizations that passes itself as Catholic but is not? The same with Concerned Catholics.

Dissenting Organizations

Dignity USA

Dignity USA link will take you to Dignity Canada

Debora, dissenting organizations use Catholic language and changes it wherever to suit their beliefs that depart from real instructions of Catholic Church. This is how they insinuate their erroneous beliefs. It is subtle. It is sly. What more effective strategy than to sow confusion with language and terminologies? This is how they attract Catholics who have SSA or those who are sympathetic to people with SSA. I am not surprised that the OP has been using it as a source. Thankfully, it looks like the Holy Spirit was at work with her regardless of the source she was using. It would appear that you are also looking at an inauthentic source.

Elizabeth and Edward are correct. As provided to you and here again, links to authentic Catholic Catechism:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

CCC 2358
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2358
,
 
Debora123 said:
So are you saying the Church changed it’s teaching?? :eek:

Just because the wording may have changed in a different edition doesn’t mean it implies something different.
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First of all, “just because wording is changed” can have an important implication in how teaching is understood – as opposed to randomly interpreted.

The removal of the wording about choice was rather deliberate, and makes sense in light of how moral theology is constructed in Catholic doctrine.

The 1997 version is the correct, accurate teaching. Nothing in there about choice, as has been said several times now.
 
Debora123 said:
No, I am not embracing homosexual behavior and acknowledge it as a grave sin. Maybe you didn’t read my posts before accusing me of being a liberal Catholic?

My view of this matter is the same as that of the Catholic Church. Homosexual orientation in and of itself is not a sin. It is not a sin because it is not freely chosen. Only acting on it is a sin.

I thought you were a troll because you were making these claims:
  • It is the parent’s fault when a child is born handy caped/with mental disorder/with birth defects
  • People choose to have a homosexual orientation, no differently than one would choose to have an abortion
  • People with a homosexual orientation make themselves that way
  • Having a homosexual orientation is a sin
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I made an observation by seeing your posts that you are indeed representing the liberal Catholic point of view . You are playing the soldier for homosexuality here . Now While the church does not condemn the homosexual , it does condemn the homosexual act . Just a reminder for you in case you forgot that factoid . This is a conservative point of view of mine(your reasoning for calling me a troll ) how would you like it if I called you a troll for being a soldier for homosexuals here? (no offense to the poster of course ) First off how many Chaste homosexuals do you think their really are ? Not many fall under the churches approval . Just a little point I would like to make . Now the poster claims to be and I hope she is .Like I stated before in so many words that the poster is a kind hearted person . This went from me disagreeing with her and stating my view to you being a soldier for her stance and name calling . I would not think that I would have to remind a female to be an adult here .Lets get off of the high horse .
 
Edward_H said:
Right…show me the other proportionately numbered threads in CAF that are so titled. You won’t find them, proving my first posting.

You should re-order your thinking. You are a child of God and when you fully exhaust that notion…in all of its enormously practical meaning and value, then you could start thinking about other, lesser 'identities".

Evilness breeds and spreads in untruth. This is Church teaching.
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They may not be so titled, but every time a heterosexual starts a thread about his or her heterosexual status, including sexual desire and marriage, he or she is proclaiming an identity and behaviors as heterosexual unless stated otherwise. The default assumption is that the poster’s desires are oriented to the opposite sex. Threads about pregnancy are also related to heterosexuality. So all of the sexual desire threads and the NFP threads and the infertility threads and the pregnancy threads and the “I’m having issues with my marriage” threads assume heterosexuality.

It doesn’t need to be stated b/c most people in this world are heterosexual therefore the assumption is the poster will be too unless stated otherwise.
 
Edward_H said:
And the other term that I am complaining is not well grounded enough is “identity”

The only identifying property we will worry about when we die isn’t being Brazilian or heterosexual…or anything else.

And so that’s why I am wondering whether a re-ordered focus would be helpful.
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I see threads that go on for dozens of pages and they just spring up innumerably about the use of contraception and one’s Catholic identity. That relates to heterosexuality. People don’t need to say “since I’m a heterosexual in a committed relationship my identity as a heterosexual makes me think about ABC” b/c they can just say “I’m married and I don’t know how to reconcile ABC with being Catholic” or “how do I understand the teachings on NFP and live them in my marriage.”

I’m not trying to be adversarial; personally I applaud the OP for making what I read as a thoughtful statement about her life and spirituality which for her involves issues with homosexuality just as for a married woman it could involve NFP. The (heterosexually) marred woman won’t say “I’m heterosexual” but she will say “I’m married” and people will assume the same thing.

I support the OP.
 
silentstar said:
They may not be so titled, but every time a heterosexual starts a thread about his or her heterosexual status, including sexual desire and marriage, he or she is proclaiming an identity and behaviors as heterosexual unless stated otherwise. The default assumption is that the poster’s desires are oriented to the opposite sex. Threads about pregnancy are also related to heterosexuality. So all of the sexual desire threads and the NFP threads and the infertility threads and the pregnancy threads and the “I’m having issues with my marriage” threads assume heterosexuality.

It doesn’t need to be stated b/c most people in this world are heterosexual therefore the assumption is the poster will be too unless stated otherwise.
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So all of the sexual desire threads and the NFP threads and the infertility threads and the pregnancy threads and the “I’m having issues with my marriage” threads assume heterosexuality.
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Assuming heterosexuality underneath such forums is not the same thing as orienting whole threads, repeating threads, overlapping threads around homosexual identity.

Consider “work” threads. All morally licit human work properly conceived of, from a supernatural point of view, is designed to support the family (presupposing heterosexuality).

But it accomplishes nothing to center or consider these discussions around “heterosexual identity”.
 
silentstar said:
I see threads that go on for dozens of pages and they just spring up innumerably about the use of contraception and one’s Catholic identity. That relates to heterosexuality. People don’t need to say “since I’m a heterosexual in a committed relationship my identity as a heterosexual makes me think about ABC” b/c they can just say “I’m married and I don’t know how to reconcile ABC with being Catholic” or “how do I understand the teachings on NFP and live them in my marriage.”

I’m not trying to be adversarial; personally I applaud the OP for making what I read as a thoughtful statement about her life and spirituality which for her involves issues with homosexuality just as for a married woman it could involve NFP. The (heterosexually) marred woman won’t say “I’m heterosexual” but she will say “I’m married” and people will assume the same thing.

I support the OP.
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And you can point to numerous cases where you have applauded 'happily married faithful men" for making “thoughtful statements…”?

If not, why not? What in us wants to “applaud”? Feelings? Truth? True love?
 
raaucoin said:
  1. I’m not too nice, just trying to lighten my purgatory load!😉
  2. There is always room for honest discourse and differing opinions. That’s just exercising the beautiful gift of intellect God has given us.And apology accepted! I don’t get upset about what someone says who is truly seeking to follow the Lord. It took me 43 yrs to get to where I am today and I know I’m not where I’ll end up. If I trust the Holy Spirit can lead me, then I must trust the same for others.But I do beleive that differences can be expressed without causing SCANDAL- as defined as something that can lead others astray and away from the faith, or down right scare the crud out of someone and send them running.
    Peace Debora
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Actually if you’re 43 and have come back to the Church I’m interested in talking to you 🙂 b/c I will be 43 in September and have had issues of my own, including with ABC. If you wouldn’t mind sending me a PM I’d appreciate it, if you want to have these discussions one on one.
 
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