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Kevin_Walker
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In front of my eyes, by a Priest under 30!
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Kevin_Walker
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Pariah Pirana:
But correct me if I am wrong, I remember in my parish, the Gate of Heaven Church, that an abbreviated version of the Tridentine was called a ‘low’ Mass? There was a definate distinction between a low and a high Mass in my upbringing. The low Mass was conducted down in the smaller Chapel, but its location was not why it was called a low Mass, and I distinctly remember it was much shorter than the 90 minute + high Mass held in the main nave.
Why would you call the 25 minute ‘low’ Mass “butchered”? The 25 minute low Mass still had a zillion more times dignity and decorum than the New Mass.
My anger turned into disillusionment decades ago.
But correct me if I am wrong, I remember in my parish, the Gate of Heaven Church, that an abbreviated version of the Tridentine was called a ‘low’ Mass? There was a definate distinction between a low and a high Mass in my upbringing. The low Mass was conducted down in the smaller Chapel, but its location was not why it was called a low Mass, and I distinctly remember it was much shorter than the 90 minute + high Mass held in the main nave.
Why would you call the 25 minute ‘low’ Mass “butchered”? The 25 minute low Mass still had a zillion more times dignity and decorum than the New Mass.
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Genesis315
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Kevin Walker:
They alternate the High and Low Mass each week where I go. The High is about an 90 minutes and the Low is about 60. I go to daily Mass on Wednesdays (NOM) and it lasts 30 minutes max.
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Andreas_Hofer
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While it saddens me that the congregation at that particular Tridentine Mass exhibited so many faults, I don’t know that these necessarily have anything to do with the old rite in general nor do they lack equivalents in “N.O.” parishes. For instance, instead of snubbing those who do not conform to the “dress code,” today’s mainstream parishes sometimes stare and assume an individual feels holier-than-thou if she wears a head covering. Or instead of gossipping about “modernists” I listened to a priest just 4 days ago openly deride the Tridentine Rite, as if it were a laughable little game the Church was playing back then. Or what about judging those who do not wish to hold hands during the Our Father (despite the pleas of the bishops to cut it out)? I think you bring real issues within the traditionalist communities to light, but I also think your complaints ignore the faults of the rest of the Church.
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EddieArent
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To each his own. Check ebay. $2,000 apparently for Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity from a Mass celebrate by Pope John Paul II (RIP). Thanks to Communion in the hand and other things going on in the Novus Ordo.
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Petrus_Romanus
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I would rather attend the Roman Mass (Tidentine) in English, than the Novus Ordo in latin.
It is the content of the prayers, not the language which is important.
And the ancient prayers flow from Apostolic Tradition and are much more reverent and theologically sound than the New Mass.
I believe, that had the reform simply reformed the Tridentine Liturgy, as mandated by Vatican II, rather than create an entirely new Rite, and do away with the historic Roman liturgy, and very many ancient practises and prayers dating back to Apostolic Times, far fewer people would be having this debate today.
Hopefully, the next Pope will allow unrestricted access to the Roman liturgy, alongside the new Rite.
It is the content of the prayers, not the language which is important.
And the ancient prayers flow from Apostolic Tradition and are much more reverent and theologically sound than the New Mass.
I believe, that had the reform simply reformed the Tridentine Liturgy, as mandated by Vatican II, rather than create an entirely new Rite, and do away with the historic Roman liturgy, and very many ancient practises and prayers dating back to Apostolic Times, far fewer people would be having this debate today.
Hopefully, the next Pope will allow unrestricted access to the Roman liturgy, alongside the new Rite.
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Prometheum_x
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Since it’s on EBay, that must mean that it really is a host from a Mass celebrated by JPII. . .
And, I suppose that the only way to smuggle a host out of Mass is by receiving in the hand? People are clever. . .
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Mt19_26
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I am planning on attending a Tridentine Mass for the first time soon. I hope I don’t see any of the things mentioned here. Has anyone on these boards attened the TLM at Holy Cross in San Diego?
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Pariah_Pirana
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Kevin Walker:
Thousands of priests butchered the Tridentine “low” Mass to get through with it in 25 minutes. Ahhhhhhhhh, the good old days.
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Pariah_Pirana
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Don’t be silly. Even if one received on the tongue, they could discreetly remove the host from their tongues. Communion on the tongue is actually later innovation – they received in their hands in the early church.
“Place your left hand as the throne of your right one, which is to receive the King.” – St. Cyril, 348AD
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DavidJoseph
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Although I’ve always found my FSSP-staffed parish friendly, I must admit that I debated on whether or not to go there regularly for a long time because, although at the time I didn’t really know anyone there, I’d come across so many “traditional” Catholics (mainly online and in publications I normally avoid such as “Catholic Family News” and “The Remnant”) who weren’t members of the SSPX or sedevacantists (they actually attended indult Masses) who had attitudes that basically made them indistinguishable from members of the aforementioned schismatic and/or heretical groups. These folks really did an excellent job of giving traditionalism a bad name. And so I didn’t want to get into rows with people and be made to feel like I wasn’t really Catholic just because I’m an orthodox, EWTN-type Catholic rather than one who tries to be more Catholic than the pope.
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Kevin_Walker
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Pariah Pirana:
Again, what do you mean by “butchered”? How is an abbreviated Tridentine Mass a butchery? As much as I dislike the Novus Ordo Mass, I have never used the term ‘butchered’ to describe it. A mistake yes, poor decision making on part of the Vatican yes, but not a ‘butcher’ job.
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Kevin_Walker
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Pariah Pirana:
In my experience, once the Host touches the tongue, or comes into contact with an iota of moisture, it begins to desolve. Kinda tough to sell a quasi-gelatinous mass on e-bay.
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rcn
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In every go-nowhere-fast thread that arises on this topic, someone will always post that as a child, they went to Communion with their tongue as dry as they could keep it, so that they could take the host ot of their mouth “to see what it looked like”.
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PreVatII
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Mt19:26:
My family and I attended the San Diego indult Mass for several years until we left California. It is beautiful and packed with many large, young, solidly Catholic families. You will find a slice of Heaven there!
Check their web site. You should attend a High Mass first to get the full flavor of what we, as Roman Catholics, have lost.
Mt19:26,
My family and I attended the San Diego indult Mass for several years until we left California. It is beautiful and packed with many large, young, solidly Catholic families. You will find a slice of Heaven there!
Check their web site. You should attend a High Mass first to get the full flavor of what we, as Roman Catholics, have lost.
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PreVatII
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Petrus Romanus:
You hit the nail on the head. Could not have said it any better!
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Kevin_Walker
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In my initials days of Catholic formation (the mid to late 60s) we were drilled that it was the most vile mortal sin to touch the Host, and if you got caught during Mass then you would receive a resounding slap across the kisser by the Nun, whether boy or girl.
I still haven’t gotten used to receiving the Host in my hand.
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gelsbern
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Pariah Pirana:
The High Mass takes about an hour and a half, a Missa Cantata (Sung Low Mass) take about an hour and a regular low mass takes about 1/2 hour unless there is a homily then it takes about 45 minutes.
I have never seen a butchered tridentine mass. I have seen many properly done low masses which take much less time since the priest doesn’t have to wait for the choir to finish singing the psalms and the creed and other things that take up time. In a low mass, the servers do all the responses and at a low mass there is usually no homily. A low mass takes about 1/2 hour to go through and I speak from experience as someone who has helped serve a few low masses.
The High Mass takes about an hour and a half, a Missa Cantata (Sung Low Mass) take about an hour and a regular low mass takes about 1/2 hour unless there is a homily then it takes about 45 minutes.
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Pariah_Pirana
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Kevin Walker:
I recall not long after my first communion that I wanted to inspect Jesus. I made sure my tongue was bone-dry prior to receiving. Once back in my pew I removed the pristine host from my mouth and began to inspect it – until my dad noticed.
If a 6 year old can do something like this, an adult would have no problem.
Again, don’t be silly.
I recall not long after my first communion that I wanted to inspect Jesus. I made sure my tongue was bone-dry prior to receiving. Once back in my pew I removed the pristine host from my mouth and began to inspect it – until my dad noticed.
If a 6 year old can do something like this, an adult would have no problem.
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Pariah_Pirana
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gelsbern said:
Oh no? A quick trip to the Adoremus.org website produced this sad recollection by a priest:
"The Old Mass
Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.
Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.
In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.
Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.
Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.
Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”
Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)
Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"
adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html
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