Why I no longer attend the Tridentine Mass

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QUOTE
There is no “new Rite.” The Pauline Mass is the normative Mass for the Latin or “Roman” Rite. The Tridentine is allowed under an indult…
The Pauline Mass is every bit as “Roman” as the Tridentine Mass.

Cardinal Ratzinger, Msgr. Klaus Gamber, Louise Bouyer and a host of other liturgical scholards would disagree with you.

You simply cannot change the Anaphora without creating an entirely new Rite. That in itself breaks the Ecumenical Mass of Paul VI with the historic Roman Mass.

Here is our beloved Ratzy in his foreward to Msgr Gamber’s classic book “Reforming the Roman Liturgy”.

***“After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”. ***
 
Pariah Pirana:
Another thread made me think about why I no longer attend the Tridentine Mass here locally:

1.) People bitterly gossiping about those they perceived to be “modernists” prior to the Mass. At least they do it outside.

2.) The very cold reception they gave as a group to visitors who they felt were not dressed appropriately for the Mass.

3.) The intense peer pressure amongst the women (also directed to visiting women) to cover their heads.

4.) The contrived feeling of superiority displayed by more than a few at “coffee” after Mass. (Very few attended, thank goodness.)

5.) The outright hatred voiced towards the “new” Mass.

6.) The gossip directed to the wonderful 80 year old monsignor who went out of his way to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in our parish’s chapel each Sunday.

7.) The general lack understanding of what the Church actually instructs.

8.) A horrible “bunker mentality” – an “us against the rest of the Church” mentality.

9.) A focus on what is wrong, versus what is right.

10.) The constant “drum-beat” that Vatican Council II is wrong and that only a return to the Tridentine Mass will help the Church.

I could go on, but that’s a quick 10.
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From what you have written, it seems that you are a sloppily dressed New Age person who is a “new” Catholic.

#7,8,9 and 10 are your opinions, not fact. These are your “:impressions”.

#4 & 5 are again your opinions. You must have come from a very Liberal Church. #2, is nonesense. Let me tell you that over the past 7 to 8 years not one person has spoken to me before or after Church. Once a Priest shook my hand after Mass, he was visiting from India. Could you be too sensitive?
 
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Iohannes:
I do not deny that Jesus is equally and validly present in both the New and the Tridentine Mass, but in the New Mass, the Real Presence is disrespected more frequently. Liturgical dance, laypeople opening and closing the tabernacle, etc. Plus the prayers have richer theological meaning than the New Mass. If you cannot see that then I feel sorry for you.
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You’re a perfect example of someone who feels the know what is “better”, even though the Church takes no such position.

The bottom line: the Tridentine Mass is neither better nor worse than the Pauline Mass.

Try following what the Church actually says, and not what you feel is “better.”
 
Exporter said:
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From what you have written, it seems that you are a sloppily dressed New Age person who is a “new” Catholic.

#7,8,9 and 10 are your opinions, not fact. These are your “:impressions”.

#4 & 5 are again your opinions. You must have come from a very Liberal Church. #2, is nonesense. Let me tell you that over the past 7 to 8 years not one person has spoken to me before or after Church. Once a Priest shook my hand after Mass, he was visiting from India. Could you be too sensitive?
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From what you have written, someone needs to learn how to think in a critical manner…
 
Petrus Romanus said:
QUOTE
There is no “new Rite.” The Pauline Mass is the normative Mass for the Latin or “Roman” Rite. The Tridentine is allowed under an indult…
The Pauline Mass is every bit as “Roman” as the Tridentine Mass.

Cardinal Ratzinger, Msgr. Klaus Gamber, Louise Bouyer and a host of other liturgical scholards would disagree with you.

You simply cannot change the Anaphora without creating an entirely new Rite. That in itself breaks the Ecumenical Mass of Paul VI with the historic Roman Mass.

Here is our beloved Ratzy in his foreward to Msgr Gamber’s classic book “Reforming the Roman Liturgy”.

***“After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”. ***
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You’re terribly mistaken.

The Church did not create a new Rite with the prommulgation of the Pauline Mass.

This isn’t debatible.
 
Pariah,

Do you even know what a Rite is?

I have a degree in Catholic Philosophy and Liturgical History from Seminary of Christ the King in Mission, BC.

The New Mass is a new Rite of worship.

No educated person, on either side of the debate would argue otherwise.

“The Roman Rite has ceased to exist”. Louis Bouyer.
 
Petrus Romanus:
Pariah,

Do you even know what a Rite is?

I have a degree in Catholic Philosophy and Liturgical History from Seminary of Christ the King in Mission, BC.

The New Mass is a new Rite of worship.

No educated person, on either side of the debate would argue otherwise.

“The Roman Rite has ceased to exist”. Louis Bouyer.
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The first one who has to resort to trumpeting their CV (no matter how short it may be) is the first to advertise the fact they don’t know what they are talking about.

You suggested that the Pauline Mass is not part of the Latin or Roman Rite.

You’re flat-out wrong.
 
Pariah Pirana:
The bottom line: the Tridentine Mass is neither better nor worse than the Pauline Mass.

Try following what the Church actually says, and not what you feel is “better.”
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Perhaps the Church has not officially declared the Tridentine Rite “better” than the Pauline Rite, but you must be aware that many of the Church’s most senior prelates have taken very critical positions on the Pauline Missal (Cardinal Ratzinger’s quoted sentiments being a case in point). Even John Paul II, famed for his tenure as Patriarch of Rome (and thus the Latin Church) lamented, in Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way, that the old rite of ordination was “much richer” than the current rite.
 
I agree this 2 Mass system is causing division for no good reason. For the solution to this problem I go back to the words of Christ:
“A house divided against itself shall not stand”
One version of the Mass needs to be done away with forever and this whole mess will blow over in a generation or two. Then this will be just one more story to add to the Church’s amazing history.
 
Anyways I go to Mass because it is the Mass, not because of the people. I do not care what the laypeople think.
 
Simply the offertory in the Tridentine Mass is surperior than the New Mass. If you look at the language, it is more clear that the Mass is a sacrificial nature.

Tridentine Offertory:
Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this **spotless ** host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.

Look at the words in bold, how is that not a stronger language than the New Mass offertory?
I absolutly do not understand how this is the same as this:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
 
Lets make this clear here, I am not saying people who are going to the New Mass are less Catholic, or that there is less Jesus in the New Mass.

I am saying that the Text of the Tridentine Mass is surperior to the New Mass. I am using the offertories to Compare the two.

**Those who claim that the two Mass are not better than one another, please back that assertion up. **

We all know that the Real Presence is equally valid in both. So it is not about the validity. I am saying that the rubrics, prayers are better in the Tridentine Mass so therefore the Tridentine Mass is superior, just look at the offertory. In the Tridentine Offertory you can see that a Sacrifice is being prepared as well as asking for mercy, and prays for salvation. The Tridentine offertory clearly shows that Jesus will be offered up inthe Real Presence for the mercy and salvation of mandkind and the whole world. Those things are absent in the Offertory of the New Mass.
 
Iohannes said:
Simply the offertory in the Tridentine Mass is surperior than the New Mass. If you look at the language, it is more clear that the Mass is a sacrificial nature.

Tridentine Offertory:
Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.

Look at the words in bold, how is that not a stronger language than the New Mass offertory?
I absolutly do not understand how this is the same as this:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
Click to expand...

Says you. No, I don’t believe Mother Church would give us a Mass that was inferior than the one it was replacing as normative within the Latin Rite.
 
Must be an isolated incident…never happens where I attend the TLM…sorry for your bad experiences…but what is funny is that people will speak up and agree with the things you have said, but as soon as someone speaks in favor of the TLM, they are a Rad Trad with bunker mentality, who rejects VII…it is almost like people believe that being an orthodox Catholic and preferring the TLM are mutually exclusive…what is the deal?
Pariah Pirana:
Another thread made me think about why I no longer attend the Tridentine Mass here locally:

1.) People bitterly gossiping about those they perceived to be “modernists” prior to the Mass. At least they do it outside.

2.) The very cold reception they gave as a group to visitors who they felt were not dressed appropriately for the Mass.

3.) The intense peer pressure amongst the women (also directed to visiting women) to cover their heads.

4.) The contrived feeling of superiority displayed by more than a few at “coffee” after Mass. (Very few attended, thank goodness.)

5.) The outright hatred voiced towards the “new” Mass.

6.) The gossip directed to the wonderful 80 year old monsignor who went out of his way to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in our parish’s chapel each Sunday.

7.) The general lack understanding of what the Church actually instructs.

8.) A horrible “bunker mentality” – an “us against the rest of the Church” mentality.

9.) A focus on what is wrong, versus what is right.

10.) The constant “drum-beat” that Vatican Council II is wrong and that only a return to the Tridentine Mass will help the Church.

I could go on, but that’s a quick 10.
Click to expand...
 
Here is another idea,

Show Charity to people, start engaging devotions. Pray for them who bug you.

As for the peer pressure to dress better, why not? We dress so nice when we are interviewed by our bosses and dress up nice to weddings and Funerals, etc. Or when we meet the president of the USA we dress nice. But our Lord, why is it people have quam dressing up nice for our Lord? Isn’t Jesus the most important person on this planet? Should we not dress up nice for him as a sign of respect? Perhaps maybe you can show them a more charitable way of doing things?
 
Pariah Pirana said:
Says you. No, I don’t believe Mother Church would give us a Mass that was inferior than the one it was replacing as normative within the Latin Rite.
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Then tell me how those two offertories are the same? I believe God has one time given the Israelite a worship that was inferior to the previous worship.

“I Gave them a Liturgy that was Not Good”
lumengentleman.com/index.asp?id=69
 
Pariah Pirana said:
Says you. No, I don’t believe Mother Church would give us a Mass that was inferior than the one it was replacing as normative within the Latin Rite.
Click to expand...

I really do not need to say anything. The prayers of the Offertory of the Tridentine Mass will speak for itself.

Read it again and compare it side by side.
 
Catholic Dude said:
I agree this 2 Mass system is causing division for no good reason. For the solution to this problem I go back to the words of Christ:
“A house divided against itself shall not stand”
One version of the Mass needs to be done away with forever and this whole mess will blow over in a generation or two. Then this will be just one more story to add to the Church’s amazing history.
Click to expand...

I think if the Tridentine Mass had always been available on demand, there would be little need for it today. It’s appeal seems to stem largely because it is “forbidden” or overly controlled within some dioceses.

I think a “univeral indult” might actually reduce the number of people who attend the Tridentine Mass.
 
I have no doubt as to what the OP said. It’s just human nature. All of his points make sense. There is an elitist attitude that is readily apparent. We have a few of these people in our church, and they tend to be on the angry side of things.

That said, gossip is universal. Also, folks can be elitist about any number of things.

I think it’s important to remember this proverb to put things into perspective. The sacrifice of the Mass is an edifying and important thing for us. But, we need to then take Christ into the world by serving humanity.

Proverbs 21:3 * To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. *
 
Pariah Pirana said:
Says you. No, I don’t believe Mother Church would give us a Mass that was inferior than the one it was replacing as normative within the Latin Rite.
Click to expand...

The protection against prescribing objectively evil behavior in her disciplines does not automatically force the Church to choose the best possible option at any given time. Well-intentioned prelates, including popes, can still make less-than-perfect decisions. Admitting this possibility does not mean a lack of faith, loyalty, or obedience, just a questioning of prudential judgments.
 
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