Why I no longer attend the Tridentine Mass

[Pariah_Pirana]

rcn:

In every go-nowhere-fast thread that arises on this topic, someone will always post that as a child, they went to Communion with their tongue as dry as they could keep it, so that they could take the host ot of their mouth “to see what it looked like”.

And?

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

DavidJoseph:

Although I’ve always found my FSSP-staffed parish friendly, I must admit that I debated on whether or not to go there regularly for a long time because, although at the time I didn’t really know anyone there, I’d come across so many “traditional” Catholics (mainly online and in publications I normally avoid such as “Catholic Family News” and “The Remnant”) who weren’t members of the SSPX or sedevacantists (they actually attended indult Masses) who had attitudes that basically made them indistinguishable from members of the aforementioned schismatic and/or heretical groups. These folks really did an excellent job of giving traditionalism a bad name. And so I didn’t want to get into rows with people and be made to feel like I wasn’t really Catholic just because I’m an orthodox, EWTN-type Catholic rather than one who tries to be more Catholic than the pope.

Oh! How I would love to attend the Pauline Mass each week just as celebrated on TV by EWTN! They give a perfect display of just how gorgeous and rich the Pauline Mass can be…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Petrus Romanus:

I would rather attend the Roman Mass (Tidentine) in English, than the Novus Ordo in latin.

It is the content of the prayers, not the language which is important.

And the ancient prayers flow from Apostolic Tradition and are much more reverent and theologically sound than the New Mass.

I believe, that had the reform simply reformed the Tridentine Liturgy, as mandated by Vatican II, rather than create an entirely new Rite, and do away with the historic Roman liturgy, and very many ancient practises and prayers dating back to Apostolic Times, far fewer people would be having this debate today.

Hopefully, the next Pope will allow unrestricted access to the Roman liturgy, alongside the new Rite.

There is no “new Rite.” The Pauline Mass is the normative Mass for the Latin or “Roman” Rite. The Tridentine is allowed under an indult…

The Pauline Mass is every bit as “Roman” as the Tridentine Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

Oh! How I would love to attend the Pauline Mass each week just as celebrated on TV by EWTN! They give a perfect display of just how gorgeous and rich the Pauline Mass can be…

Want to move to MI?
We have it at our parish. Five Holy Masses on Sunday!

 

[rcn]

Pariah Pirana:

And?

What do you mean “And?” ??

Every time the tired boring no-one-ever-abused-the-Host-when-we-could-only-receive-on-the-tongue argument gets made, someone always replies as I mentioned, and as you yourself did in post #39.

That is all.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I would love the opportunity to attend a Tridentine Indult Mass, but there isn’t one for 100 miles of where I live.

I’d love to get in touch with my Catholic “roots,” so to speak.

I’ve attended the Novus Ordo Masses since I was about 4 years old, and there are plenty of bitter, hate-filled, and gossipy people there at those Masses, too.

But I don’t attend Mass because of the people there, (hey, we’re all sinners!) nor the personalities present, but because of Who Is there!!!

I ran into an old Catholic elementary school chum a couple of years back, and he told me that he no longer goes to church–any church–because all the churchgoers are hypocrits. I reminded him how odd it is, that it doesn’t keep him from going to parties, grocery store, or other places where surely hypocrits will be found!!!

Anyway, I guess my message is, go to whatever Mass you like, but don’t be so judgemental of others attending.

After all, by pointing out all their sins, aren’t you yourself gossiping?

Don’t you think you may turn some others away from this beautiful form of worship because of your own negative attitude toward it?

If I was “on the fence,” your remarks might cause me to be reluctant to attend a Tridentine Mass. It would be a shame for you to turn someone off from either form of Christ’s Holy Sacrifice.

 

[pnewton]

Panis Angelicas:

I would love the opportunity to attend a Tridentine Indult Mass, .

I am with you on this and if I get a chance I will do so. The only thing that would put me off from it would be the attitude and “Mass-olotry” some here express. On the bright side, many of the faithful traditionalists here have sparked an interest in me and are why I will attend when I get a chance.

 

[Penitent]

pnewton:

The only thing that would put me off from it would be the attitude and “Mass-olotry” some here express.

Don’t let anything put you off if you have the opportunity. I attend both types of Masses and am quite enamored by both. I’ve never heard anything negative about either Mass by the other, and I’ve never heard a priest (at either of the parishes) make any disparaging remarks.

Penitent

 

[rayne89]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Want to move to MI?
We have it at our parish. Five Holy Masses on Sunday!

Actually 6

7:30 AM
9:30 AM
11:30 AM
1:30 PM
6:30 PM
8:30 PM

and at least 3 daily Masses

 

[Iohannes]

Of course the Tridentine Mass is superior to the New Mass:

Just take a look at the two offertories.

New Mass:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
R. Blessed be God for ever.
P: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.
P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
R: Blessed be God for ever
P: Lord God, we ask you to receive us and be pleased with the sacrifice we offer you with humble and contrite hearts.

Here is the offertory ot the Tridentine Mass which is superior:

P: Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen.
P: O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew: by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God; world without end. Amen.
P: We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency that it may ascend as a sweet odor before Thy divine majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.
P: Humbled in mind, and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord; and may the sacrifice we this day offer up be well pleasing to Thee, Who art our Lord and our God.
P: Come, Thou, the Sanctifier, God, almighty and everlasting: bless (+) this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy name.

 

[Iohannes]

Comparison of the Lavabo:

New Mass:
P: Lord, wash away my iniquity; me from my sin.

Tridentine Mass:
P: I will wash my hands among the innocent, and will cleanse compass Thine altar, O Lord. That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked; nor my life with men of blood. In whose hands are iniquities: their right hand is filled with gifts. But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be; world without end. Amen.
P: Receive, O holy Trinity, this oblation offered up by us to Thee in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of blessed Mary, ever a virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, of the holy apostles Peter and Paul, of these, and of all the saints, that it may be available to their honor and to our salvation; and may they whose memory we celebrate on earth vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[Iohannes]

The Tridentine Mass is the Roman Mass, the New Mass is not the Roman Mass, but just the New Mass.

I have textual evidence to prove that the Tridentine Mass is superior to the New Mass. Not only that the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass are superior too, It has a richer theology than the New Mass.

 

[pnewton]

Iohannes:

The Tridentine Mass is the Roman Mass, the New Mass is not the Roman Mass, but just the New Mass.

I have textual evidence to prove that the Tridentine Mass is superior to the New Mass. Not only that the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass are superior too, It has a richer theology than the New Mass.

The current normative Mass of the Latin rite of the Catholic Church is not the Tridentine Mass. You saying it in different words will not change the facts. When you say it is “superior” do you think that the Jesus present in the TLM is superior, the music or something else.

 

[A_O]

pnewton:

The current normative Mass of the Latin rite of the Catholic Church is not the Tridentine Mass. You saying it in different words will not change the facts. When you say it is “superior” do you think that the Jesus present in the TLM is superior, the music or something else.

I think s/he means the teaching quality of the words in the TLM, a bit more doctrine and theology incorporated.

Why was it that when they decided to issue a Mass in the vernacular, they didn’t just translate the Latin Mass into the native tongue, anyway?

 

[otm]

Iohannes:

Of course the Tridentine Mass is superior to the New Mass:

Just take a look at the two offertories.

New Mass:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
R. Blessed be God for ever.
P: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.
P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
R: Blessed be God for ever
P: Lord God, we ask you to receive us and be pleased with the sacrifice we offer you with humble and contrite hearts.

Here is the offertory ot the Tridentine Mass which is superior:

P: Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen.
P: O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew: by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God; world without end. Amen.
P: We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency that it may ascend as a sweet odor before Thy divine majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.
P: Humbled in mind, and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord; and may the sacrifice we this day offer up be well pleasing to Thee, Who art our Lord and our God.
P: Come, Thou, the Sanctifier, God, almighty and everlasting: bless (+) this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy name.

I have looked. Your point is obviously not self-explanatory. Other than the fact that the English is antiquated, which has nothing whatsoever to do with being holier or more theologically sound, the prayers are longer and tending towards a more florid form of speech.

“Thee” and Thou" make some folks sox roll up and down, and that is fine. But holier or more theologically sound? Not.

 

[Iohannes]

I do not deny that Jesus is equally and validly present in both the New and the Tridentine Mass, but in the New Mass, the Real Presence is disrespected more frequently. Liturgical dance, laypeople opening and closing the tabernacle, etc. Plus the prayers have richer theological meaning than the New Mass. If you cannot see that then I feel sorry for you.

 

[Iohannes]

Fine lets get an updated version of that offertory using a Vatican II Mass the 1965 Missal:

Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.

O God, Who established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be partakers of His Divinity, Who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord. Who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever. Amen.

We offer You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, humbly begging Your mercy that it may arise before Your Divine Majesty, with a pleasing fragrance, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.
In a humble spirit and with a contrite heart, may we be accepted by You, O Lord, and may our sacrifice so be offered in Your sight this day as to please You, O Lord God.

Come, O Sanctifier, almighty and eternal God, and bless + this sacrifice prepared for the glory of Your holy name.

 

[chevalier]

How about this?

J: Take ye and eat. This is my body.
J: Drink ye all of this.For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins

 

[Iohannes]

Here is the 1965 Missal, still better than the New Mass.

coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

 

[Iohannes]

chevalier:

How about this?

J: Take ye and eat. This is my body.
J: Drink ye all of this.For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins

How about this, look at the placement of the Mystery of the Faith and compare it to the New Mass.

FOR THIS IS MY BODY.

In like manner, when the supper was done, taking also this goodly chalice into His holy and venerable hands, again giving thanks to You, He blessed + it, and gave it to His disciples, saying:

All of you take and drink of this.

FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.