Why I reject fatima

[Bruised_Reed]

That’s another thing. You also get people claiming to know the Third Secret when Sister Lucia said that Pope John Paul II had fulfilled it. All the talk about “secrets” reeks of Gnosticism. If saying you know more about an apparition than the seer isn’t being pretentious, I don’t know what is.

Yes! When I first followed apparitions I encountered similar things as you. And now on the outside looking in I think all the secret stuff fit the definition of gnostic. I feel sort of validated but at the same time I feel a loss. Apparitions played a huge part in the early part of my conversion experience and now most leave me cold. I find followers to be on the fanatical side.

I personally have a teeny, tiny problem with Mary, a mother, showing children visions of hell. I’m not really on board with that kind of parenting style.

 

[TK421]

1917 was a time period when the Church was in full battle with modernism. This was when intellectuals all across Europe were supporting anti-clerical socialism, eugenics, and fatalistic philosophies. It’s a little known fact that in Italy (yes, Italy) it wasn’t so long ago in the very late 19th century that Roman Catholics weren’t holding public offices. For all the challenges that the Church faces today, it’s all-too-easy to lose sight of history and remember the beating She’s taken over the centuries, and survived.

One of the ideas that was bound up in modernism was that people are machines, and human beings - especially children - are purely the result of what happens to them. If they do something deviant, it is because something triggered it. If they do something good, it is because something triggered it.

For one, for the past 1900 years before Fatima, Our Lady has never been perceived as a Bambi-eyed doll. She has always been a very compassionate but also very austere & serious Queen. She does - in every way - imitate the characteristics of Christ, except that these characteristics are presented to us as a perfected Eve rather than a perfected Adam. We see at Fatima not only the vision of Hell gifted to these children, but two of them that died very young are canonized. In other words: the Church made an infallible statement that children are capable of demonstrating heroic virtue. These canonizations were highly contrary to the spirit of modernism.

 

[Hans_W]

Our Lady never said the miracle would be seen by the entire daylight world… The Miracle was seen in Cova da Moura (Fátima) and some people report seeing the event from some miles away. I’m pretty sure if it was God’s Will he could make the sun movement visible in just a certain radius, since he is Almighty, Physics don’t have to apply. Likewise, those atheists that are waiting for a Biological / natural explanation for Jesus Ressurection are not going to get it. That is why it’s called a Miracle or a supernatural phenomenon.

I wasn’t questioning miracles in my post. My understanding of a miracle is that something physical happens in our space-time world without a natural cause. For example a healing which is in principle unexplainable, or somebody rising from the dead.

In Fatima we are told that the sun was moving erratically. The sun is not a little dot in the sky, but a huge star. My explanation is that this perception of the moving sun was in the mind of some people. Now you can come with possible explanations for that: mass hallucination, wishful thinking, visions implanted by God, or whatever.

I grew up in Europe and remember Uri Geller and his spoon-bending claims. He did that on TV and there were hundreds of people who reported having bent spoons in their homes! There is no harm in being sceptical to supernatural claims.

 

[TK421]

1917 was a time period when the Church was in full battle with modernism. This was when intellectuals all across Europe were supporting anti-clerical socialism, eugenics, and fatalistic philosophies. It’s a little known fact that in Italy (yes, Italy) it wasn’t so long ago in the very late 19th century that Roman Catholics weren’t holding public offices. For all the challenges that the Church faces today, it’s all-too-easy to lose sight of history and remember the beating She’s taken over the centuries, and survived.

One of the ideas that was bound up in modernism was that people are machines, and human beings - especially children - are purely the result of what happens to them. If they do something deviant, it is because something triggered it. If they do something good, it is because something triggered it.

For one, for the past 1900 years before Fatima, Our Lady has never been perceived as a Bambi-eyed doll. She has always been a very compassionate but also very austere & serious Queen. She does - in every way - imitate the characteristics of Christ, except that these characteristics are presented to us as a perfected Eve rather than a perfected Adam. We see at Fatima not only the vision of Hell gifted to these children, but two of them that died very young are canonized. In other words: the Church made an infallible statement that children are capable of demonstrating heroic virtue. These canonizations were highly contrary to the spirit of modernism.

Also, although Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, etc., might not be something bound into official Church doctrine (how could it be?), those Catholics that don’t believe in them I think suffer from the dilemma that if they don’t believe, then by default, they are forced to believe that the Church - guided by the Holy Spirit - canonized people such as Lucia and Juan Diego for evangelizing an apparition of Mary that never actually happened. I personally am unable to reconcile that idea.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Also, although Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, etc., might not be something bound into official Church doctrine (how could it be?), those Catholics that don’t believe in them I think suffer from the dilemma that if they don’t believe, then by default, they are forced to believe that the Church - guided by the Holy Spirit - canonized people such as Lucia and Juan Diego for evangelizing an apparition of Mary that never actually happened. I personally am unable to reconcile that idea.

I don’t believe in them, and I do not conform myself to what they supposedly told me to do, unless by coincidence with what I would have done anyway.

I really don’t care why the Church canonizes any given saint. She has her reasons. I don’t understand them, or question them, but I do get the honor of playing music for Mass on Sundays, said by a priest who is a canon lawyer and was the official postulator for a recent cause, now a Servant of God.

The Church ALSO has her reasons that she does not require me to believe them.

It is an insult to me, to say that I claim to have divine knowledge of the Church’s canonization process in the specific instances of two people I’ve never met nor even read about, and at this point, frankly, care about, as a necessary consequence of my not believing something the Church says I don’t have to.

And you know, I get kind of tired of playing “More Catholic Than You” – and I’m not talking about on this thread but in real life recently at a SFO meeting – by answering to people who give me orders based on apparitions, and they don’t even know anything about the Bible except what they sit through on Sundays, and frankly they don’t even know Catholic teachings that ARE binding.

So thank you for the concern, but I have zero cognitive dissonance involved here. I can’t even get Catholics to believe “do not judge” but they all believe we have to say prayers according to some magic formula.

Honestly I think we need to do more of what God told us to do, “listen to Him” and what His mother INFALLIBLY said, “do what He tells you” and not “do what everybody else is doing” or “do what feels good” or “do what is in vogue” or “pray this formula and you will get quid pro quo for somebody in Purgatory,” etc. :newidea:

I like to read (or listen on audio book) to what our Lord Actually Said, “do not judge, love your enemy” etc. and challenge myself that way, rather than “what Mary might have said” or what people say about Jesus or about Catholic teachings or about being more authoritative-sounding with Catholic snapbacks for “less Catholic than me” situations. I’m fine with my flavor of Catholicism, without the optional olives, please. :heaven:

MS

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

If Fatima was an unapproved apparition, then you might have a point. However since it is Church approved, and approved by people who know FAR MORE than you or I, then I learn some humility and accept what they say.

Atheists are as qualified to question the existence of God as plumbers are to perform surgery.

 

[Memaw]

Im on the fence about guadalupe and akita. Please understand im not trying to play the skeptic here. I just really think that we as Catholics should be ultra cautious before believing any claim of an apparition.
Right now im still leaning towards disbelieving fatima. However if it is indeed true that even people miles away from the crowd noticed unusual solar activity, then I believe.

That is why we trust the Church to study these events and then let us know if they are “Worthy of Belief” If you can’t trust the Catholic Church, who will you trust?? Yourself??? You weren’t there, you don’t have all the true facts. That’s why I never get involved in any private revelation until after the church studies it and gives us there results of that study. God Bless, Memaw

 

[thistle]

Also, although Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, etc., might not be something bound into official Church doctrine (how could it be?), those Catholics that don’t believe in them I think suffer from the dilemma that if they don’t believe, then by default, they are forced to believe that the Church - guided by the Holy Spirit - canonized people such as Lucia and Juan Diego for evangelizing an apparition of Mary that never actually happened. I personally am unable to reconcile that idea.

That is simply not true. The Church herself specifically states that Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions deemed worthy of belief by the Church. The Church’s official position trumps your opinion/dilemma!!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If Fatima was an unapproved apparition, then you might have a point. However since it is Church approved, and approved by people who know FAR MORE than you or I, then I learn some humility and accept what they say.

Atheists are as qualified to question the existence of God as plumbers are to perform surgery.

You are wrong. You are misrepresenting the Church as saying it is required to believe in it, because it is “approved.” You are lying about the Church, and using it as a weapon to disparage those like me who don’t believe the same “optional” things you do.

It just means the Church is OK with it if you choose to. Tell me again that I must or I’m against the Church, and you will again act in hostility against Church teachings for the purpose of proving to your ego and everyone else’s, that you are More Catholic than some persona on the Internet. Petty, or justified?

You are wrong. Do you understand that? Quit telling me that I am against Church doctrine by not believing it. Do you always enslave others to those optional church practices you have made to your own liking? I think maybe you are an atheist if you do not go to daily Mass. What about that? Daily Mass is approved upon by the Vatican, and no fourth hand stories of visions required. :tsktsk:

And to compare not believing in Fatima to atheism, is to say that Catholic Teachings allow atheism. :whacky:

So back off binding me to practices the Church does not, or I will sic you on a bunch of geocentric literalist creationists who believe, against Church teachings, that every chapter of Genesis MUST be interpreted literally, the earth was created in six literal 24 hour periods, and that the earth is objectively the center of the creation, and even the idea of a reference frame with the sun at the center of out solar system is blasphemous.

MS

 

[boomerang]

I personally have a teeny, tiny problem with Mary, a mother, showing children visions of hell. I’m not really on board with that kind of parenting style.

When you think about it, if you were so lucky as to have the Mother of God come to you and prove to you that hell exists, that is the best possible gift that any heavenly visitor can give to someone. Disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there. Actually being shown hell is the biggest act of mercy ever, outside of the Crucifixion. What kind of parent doesn’t show their children the dangers out there? A negligent parent, in my opinion.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

When you think about it, if you were so lucky as to have the Mother of God come to you and prove to you that hell exists, that is the best possible gift that any heavenly visitor can give to someone. Disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there. Actually being shown hell is the biggest act of mercy ever, outside of the Crucifixion. What kind of parent doesn’t show their children the dangers out there? A negligent parent, in my opinion.

Would you show your children pictures of children who were mutilated, decaying in shallow graves to warn them of the dangers of talking to strangers? There are ways of keeping children safe that preserves their innocence and childhood.

That reminds me of another part, the friend of theirs who died; Mary told them she would be in Purgatory until the end of the world. Really? Guess that’s one less soul I need to pray for since that sound like a done deal. It also sounds a lot like when parents lie or exaggerate to scare their kids so they won’t do something. Either way, I’m not convinced.

 

[boomerang]

**O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners. Amen. **

 

[someperson555]

Would you show your children pictures of children who were mutilated, decaying in shallow graves to warn them of the dangers of talking to strangers? There are ways of keeping children safe that preserves their innocence and childhood.

That reminds me of another part, the friend of theirs who died; Mary told them she would be in Purgatory until the end of the world. Really? Guess that’s one less soul I need to pray for since that sound like a done deal. It also sounds a lot like when parents lie or exaggerate to scare their kids so they won’t do something. Either way, I’m not convinced.

Wow lol, I wasnt even aware of that part. Soa child really received such a lengthy purgatory sentence? Well if thats true then theres no way I’m going to heaven. I mean if a kid ( im assuming their friend was a kid) has to stay in purgatory until the end of time then theres really no hope for me
I mean geez, what great sins did this kid commit? Did he say a some cuss words? Did he sneak cookies from the jar? Did he stay up past bed time?
Lol

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Wow lol, I wasnt even aware of that part. Soa child really received such a lengthy purgatory sentence? Well if thats true then theres no way I’m going to heaven. I mean if a kid ( im assuming their friend was a kid) has to stay in purgatory until the end of time then theres really no hope for me
I mean geez, what great sins did this kid commit? Did he say a some cuss words? Did he sneak cookies from the jar? Did he stay up past bed time?
Lol

Their friend was around 18 or so. I don’t think we realize how bad our sins are and with the exception of the scrupulous, we minimize sin. My issue with the apparition is that no hope or mercy is given. All those people who pray for the souls in Purgatory,** especially for those with no one to pray for them** (a common petition, so the friend should be covered), aren’t able to shorten her time in Purgatory. So, yeah, that doesn’t seem like there’s much hope for us.

I am trying to consider translation issues that would make the stories and quotes about the apparition wonky but English translations are consistent. Or perhaps it isn’t even something Mary said but someone tacked it on to make a point. I’m just getting a strong whiff of manipulation from certain parts. I also have heard it’s possible for an authentic apparition to have some parts that are not from God but from the mind of the seer or deceit from the enemy.

 

[someperson555]

Their friend was around 18 or so. I don’t think we realize how bad our sins are and with the exception of the scrupulous, we minimize sin. My issue with the apparition is that no hope or mercy is given. All those people who pray for the souls in Purgatory,** especially for those with no one to pray for them** (a common petition, so the friend should be covered), aren’t able to shorten her time in Purgatory. So, yeah, that doesn’t seem like there’s much hope for us.

I am trying to consider translation issues that would make the stories and quotes about the apparition wonky but English translations are consistent. Or perhaps it isn’t even something Mary said but someone tacked it on to make a point. I’m just getting a strong whiff of manipulation from certain parts. I also have heard it’s possible for an authentic apparition to have some parts that are not from God but from the mind of the seer or deceit from the enemy.

Oh well that makes a lot more sense. An 18 year old can have enough sins. Though what were a bunch of kids doing hanging around with an 18 year old strange times…
Anyway yes ive had the exact same feelings. A part of me thinks that lucias father was behind the whole thing. I remember reading that he would take her to the alleged apparition sites alone. And everyone in the town thought the father was mentally ill. So thats kind of s red flag.
Another thing that bothers me about fatima is the controversy surrounding this third secret.
HOWEVER, as I said before if the stories about people witnessing things miles away from the apparition site is true then that lends the account more credibility.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

That is simply not true. The Church herself specifically states that Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions deemed worthy of belief by the Church. The Church’s official position trumps your opinion/dilemma!!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

When you think about it, if you were so lucky as to have the Mother of God come to you and prove to you that hell exists, that is the best possible gift that any heavenly visitor can give to someone. Disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there. Actually being shown hell is the biggest act of mercy ever, outside of the Crucifixion. What kind of parent doesn’t show their children the dangers out there? A negligent parent, in my opinion.

How do you know that “disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there.”

Have you taken a survey? Has God given you an update on the specifics? This is just a made-up statement that is supposed to justify your position by again asserting that those who choose not to believe, according to Church law, are stupid and unprepared compared to those who do.

The condescending way it’s put into words is to subtle and so presumptuous that you don’t even know you’re doing it. Presuming you are right and anybody who isn’t like you is missing out on critical information that is required for their salvation.

What kind of parent shows their children bloody and violent murderous videotapes, repeatedly, to remind them of the dangers out there on the streets? Don’t you think that could take it from “being warned” to “having it thrown in the face” to the point the child either because crippled with fright, or completely indifferent to it.

So if you think it’s good to dwell on how terrible hell is, then in my opinion it’s kind of like fantasizing what your own bed may look like.

Maybe try thinking about good things, like the Scripture says. I think if Catholics would tithe 10% of their time spent obsessing over apparitions, reading the actual Gospel instead, we may find that Jesus didn’t leave as as orphans, just like He said. Why do I need visions of Mary, when Jesus specifically left me a guide who tells me all things? To try to work my head knowledge of Mary’s apparition against my own inner groanings of the spirit, frustrates the spirit and prevents our Real Guide from accessing us because we busy our minds imagining all kinds of terrible stuff.

You know why I don’t crash my car into a bridge abutment when I drive my son to school? Because I know it’s dangerous, and I would get killed, and in general it is not my plan. I don’t need to get up every day and review all the most bloody car accidents so that I may “fully respect” the possibilities. Or a flashing sign on every bridge abutment: “caution: the survival rate of people who crash into this is very low.” In Catholicism we are drawn to ways to revel and wallow in fear and horrible thoughts as if that’s some kind of virtue.

Phil 4:8
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Jesus leads by love and mercy, not fear. I think frankly that His Mother knows that, and I kind of think she should have maybe quit sticking her fingers into His work after the Cana incident.

Why do we need apparitions to tell us what to do? Jesus left us this:

John 14:15-18
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:25-27
“I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—**he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you. **Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.

Our Lord does NOT say to be afraid and remind ourselves of scary and fearful things because we think our love for doing God’s commands isn’t strong enough by itself without being scared. And if the spirit doesn’t “teach us everything” then Jesus is a liar so I guess yes if Jesus was “just kidding” about the teacher teaching us everything, then maybe we’d have to go to questionable sources. That’s why we aren’t “required” to believe in it; Jesus already gave us a perfect guide.

In my opinion, whether you believe in apparitions or not, is itself under influence of the Holy Spirit, and for some reason God needs some of us on each side of this one.

MS

 

[Techno2000]

Not the end of** time**, end of the world… BIG difference …

And Amelia?’

‘She will be in Purgatory until the end of the world.

fatima.org/essentials/facts/1917appar.asp

 

[boomerang]

How do you know that “disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there.”

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Simple. If you believe there is NO hell, why would you even bother to amend your life? People who do not believe in hell will assume their lives are “good enough” for heaven. This is actually a new age belief: everyone goes to heaven.

For the same reason I obey a security guard in a store who does not have a gun, just as easily as a police officer with a gun.

My respect for authority, or my desire to submit to authority, or my desire to be a good a faithful Catholic, or my desire to love God and each other, does not require my being constantly reminded of hell. If the only reason I try to live a good life is that I’m anxious about going to hell, then surely I will have missed the whole point of Jesus anyway. Perfect love casts out fear so if I am good mainly because I am afraid of hell, then I do not have love.

There are good people who live good lives every day who don’t believe in hell. Just because you can’t seem to comprehend why anybody would want to be good (maybe because the law of love is written on our hearts?) without being threatened with unimaginable horrors, doesn’t mean the rest of us are like that.

Why are you so hostile and defensive? I never implied you are “stupid and unprepared”.

No, you just compared someone who doesn’t believe in Fatima to an atheist, and basically dismissed going against this “approved” apparition as being of the same lack of insight. So here you have compared rejection of Catholic teachings, with my rejection of feeling a need to conform to your personal opinion on how other people should celebrate their Catholic faith. That is the “More Catholic Than You” attitude I’m talking about. You are so condescending toward someone who doesn’t believe Fatima – as the Church says is optional but obviously you don’t agree that it “should” be optional – that you can’t even see it.

Disbelief in hell is the biggest reason people end up there. Actually being shown hell is the biggest act of mercy ever, outside of the Crucifixion.

And this is the kind of presumption tossed out as if it were Gospel: "disbelief in hell … "

How do you know? Have you read a recent scientific poll that God has published on this matter? What gives you the gall to think you can determine why people are in hell, and toss it about for us all to believe your word is anything but your own prideful opinion?

Why are you assuming everyone who does not agree with you is “condescending?” I merely said it would be a great gift from heaven to be shown the reality of hell. If you think that’s condescending, you are overly sensitive to perceived insults that are not insulting at all.

I don’t perceive insults that aren’t there. What makes me different than other people you have laid this on and who don’t believe it, is that I’m willing to call you on it. The insults are there. First the person receiving them has to be strong enough not to feel judged by your statements, then confident and knowledgeable enough with scripture and Church teachings to know in no uncertain terms that you are wrong, and then the desire and motivation and vocabulary needed have to be there. I comprise all of those elements and that is why you may never have been called on you BS before now.

If there were a very real danger to my children of that nature, you better believe I would show them the evidence. I’d rather have them shocked and aware, than dead and unaware.

There is such danger, and if you don’t show gruesome and violent videos to your children of what could happen to them on the streets, and maybe pray and reflect upon it every day before dinner, then you have in your logic, failed to teach them properly. I hope you play every single kind of violent and terrible video for your children so that they may fully appreciate the dangers they are in, simply by living in this world. They may live in a state of unbalanced fear and scrupulous superstition, but by golly they weren’t uninformed, eh?

It’s an article of faith that hell exists. Every Christian should be aware of it.

OK. Say it and move on. Not every street sign has to say on it, “if you do not obey this traffic law, it could result in your punishment or even cause occasion for your death.” People know that; if they didn’t, they wouldn’t slow down when a police car is among them. Why do we need to dwell on artistic renditions of its horrors, or dwell upon them?

Lab rats, and certain low-functioning children, are tested to have greater motivations in an environment of impending fear for doing wrong and reward for doing well. For most kids, they wouldn’t need to be bribed until old people told them they had to have an excuse not to be terrible people.

Why can’t they just want to do what is right? Because obviously it doesn’t work unless they are scared throughout their body – problem is perfect love drives out all fear so if this is your state than you actually do have reason to fear.

Yeah. Maybe that’s it. If you need to fear hell before wanting to do good work for God, then you probably really do need to be afraid of it.

(continued)