Why I reject fatima

[Mystical_Seeker]

(continued)

Are you admitting that her apparitions are real?

No. The Church says I don’t have to believe them either, so in accordance with Church teachings, I do not have to so I am in compliance. That said, I’m not closed-minded enough to believe I can’t be wrong; this is where you got under my skin in the first place. Equating believing in an apparition to believing in God. Think a little more before you start saying that other Catholic, by virtue of their way of being compliant with Church teachings, are as foolish as an atheist.

Try reading Matt 23, and see if any of it fits. I’m NOT saying it does for you, but if it fits, then wear it.

I reject Fatima, as something I believe in. You may believe in it if you want, but don’t place yourself above other Catholics and make it out to be in the name of God. For you I offer this:

Prov 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that plots wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to run to evil,
19 The false witness who utters lies,
and the one who sows discord among kindred.

Note that “not meditating on the dangers of hell” is not listed.

You can believe it or not.

I choose not to. You chose to compared me (or at least others who don’t believe) to atheists. I expect an apology, because here you knew I had a choice all along and chose to disparage my form of Catholic worship – one that doesn’t involve what you say I can “not believe.”

Her messages are not against scripture. She continually warns us that the Father is very angry at our behavior and she is asking us to amend our lives, turn to God and repent our sins. Why is this so unbelievable? All one has to do is take a look at the world and anyone can see the evil that is rampant. I can’t imagine God NOT being angry when He looks at the state of mankind. Even if you can’t believe in the apparitions, her advice is certainly good.

To be angry? That God is angry? Jesus told us all this would happen, and to be at peace. Are we not to “do what He says” like Mary was actually and infallibly recorded as having said?

Yes in the mortal world it makes sense to be angry about our world rather than have the peace of Christ, so it’s easy to buy into it for those who like to emote over the horrors of earth and hell, and think that’s the way to heaven.

But He also left us this: Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it… And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened…The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So? Do you remind your children every day about the fact you could whip them with your belt if you wanted to and get away with it? Do you have them pray because of how angry you might be at them or others, and are afraid of what I might do? Do you remind them every morning that you could ground them or send them to be without supper so they had better “shape up” or “ship out?”

Our Lord was not kidding when He said not everyone will go to heaven. Some are going to go to hell, that is an article of faith. The Blessed Virgin’s words, whether real or not, to amend our lives and turn to God and stop sinning is excellent advice for everyone, and should not be poo-pooed because you are unsure of the apparition’s validity. Good advice is good advice.

If you think it is good advice to live in fear, that’s great. But don’t tell me that it is Catholic teaching, and don’t tell me that what you think is good advice for you, also must be God’s personal advice for me. I believe in the message of the angels, and in Jesus, who constantly remind us to be at peace and not to fear. If you want to live your life the opposite way, then I say go ahead because we need all parts of the Body of Christ to function.

MS

 

[boomerang]

Mystical Seeker, I am not the one who allegedly called you an atheist. That was “saintjohnxxiii”:

saintjohnxxiii: If Fatima was an unapproved apparition, then you might have a point. However since it is Church approved, and approved by people who know FAR MORE than you or I, then I learn some humility and accept what they say.

Atheists are as qualified to question the existence of God as plumbers are to perform surgery.

The only thing I said was that it would be a gift if someone from heaven showed me the reality of hell. Hello? That’s all I said. Why did this innocuous statement spark such vitriol from you? You have me confused with another poster. I never addressed you at all. Please get your facts straight before you go off half-cocked.

 

[LightBound]

Not the end of** time**, end of the world… BIG difference …

And Amelia?’

‘She will be in Purgatory until the end of the world.

fatima.org/essentials/facts/1917appar.asp

Can you find this quote on some site other than Fr Gruner’s? His priestly faculties are suspended and that group is not faithful to the Magisterium.
catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=41

 

[tifischer]

It was a miracle because people believed and it lead people to the consecrated life. Miracles have been attributed since by God’s intercession through the Saints associated with Fatima. The story of St Bernadette is so profound because she pointed us to God’s miraculous gift of healing miracles. The Lady of Fatima brought a message, a warning and pointed us to what God wants from us prayer and penance…more preventative…the Pope was not assassinated (as predicted although attempted), the war ended a little over a year later, souls saved do to increased prayer, increased miracles in the Church through praying the rosary.

There are only a couple of points of the story are concerning to me because of how one interprets some of the messages…

1. The Blessed Mother points us to Jesus that is Biblical and every Christian believes that. So, my concern is why then almost 2000 years after Jesus would she point us to her heart instead of Jesus’ (“My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.”)? She says to fallow her way but we know that Jesus tells us to fallow Him in the Bible…so if we fallow anyone it should only be someone who is fallowing Jesus thus we are fallowing Jesus. We know that we are to take refuge in God however from a figurative standpoint no Christian would argue someone who relates to their Bethlehem and their acceptance of God’s will and Jesus’ presence in them (Mary’s Immaculate heart at the annunciation)… so what does that mean? Do not take this to worship Mary. Do not take this as you may only come to Jesus through Mary. It is beautiful to accept God’s will and presence in you as Mary’s heart did and even grow from there to accept Jesus’ heart as Saint Catherine of Siena did…that is what everyone wants, right? And what we should encourage…To devote one’s self to Mary’s heart should only be to lead one’s self to be devoted to Jesus’ heart…like a pilgrimage. …
2. Penance is requested…if this is taken to mean for the purpose of harming one’s self then DO NOT DO IT…Jesus never hurt himself, Jesus never told us to hurt ourselves, Jesus taught love not hurt, Jesus taught God desires mercy not sacrifice, Jesus did not crucify himself, and Jesus gave himself to be crucified out of love to save us not because he wanted to be hurt. Penance to mean conversion of one’s life, a turning away from sin, and a turning back to God such as the Sacrament of Reconciliation then YES DO IT!

 

[ccmcmg]

Thank you.
This is similar to my experiences with fatima fanatics. It seems to me that these people crave the excitement of doomsday prophecies and they just cant wait for the day until all the unbelievers are thrown into hell and tortured in horrible ways for all eternity because they smoked some pot and said a few cuss words. Thats what all these people are like. They arent interested in hearing about Gods mercy or forgiveness. That would be boring! They want the juicy stuff like sinners being tortured and corruption in the church.
Although like you im keeping an open mind.

The legitimacy of Fatima does not fall upon the followers and believers of it. Perhaps some people are more fanatical than someone would like, but it doesn’t change the facts of the original event.

People shouldn’t be turned off of a devotion because they didn’t like a movie of it, or they don’t like the people they know who follow it, or how they practice it, if it’s a valid devotion. I didn’t understand the devotion to the Rosary until I started praying it. The same with the Divine Mercy. Sometimes, we are turned off by something because we are ‘jealous’ of the spirituality that they have, and it may seem like they are bragging (and true, some are). But that doesn’t make the devotion in question less true. Should all Catholics be judged by those who seem to go overboard, and kill abortion doctors? Or because their voice is annoying? Or we don’t like the way they dress? No.

I believe in Fatima. The Church’s approval is enough for me.

Im on the fence about guadalupe and akita. Please understand im not trying to play the skeptic here. I just really think that we as Catholics should be ultra cautious before believing any claim of an apparition.
Right now im still leaning towards disbelieving fatima. However if it is indeed true that even people miles away from the crowd noticed unusual solar activity, then I believe.

If the Church, who takes far longer and is much more skeptical than I am, has approved it, that’s enough for me. They are far more educated and spiritual than I am.

If Fatima was an unapproved apparition, then you might have a point. However since it is Church approved, and approved by people who know FAR MORE than you or I, then I learn some humility and accept what they say.
.

Would you show your children pictures of children who were mutilated, decaying in shallow graves to warn them of the dangers of talking to strangers? There are ways of keeping children safe that preserves their innocence and childhood.

That reminds me of another part, the friend of theirs who died; Mary told them she would be in Purgatory until the end of the world. Really? Guess that’s one less soul I need to pray for since that sound like a done deal. It also sounds a lot like when parents lie or exaggerate to scare their kids so they won’t do something. Either way, I’m not convinced.

Did those children grow up damaged with mental issues or problems that you would suggest happens to those who would view hell? No, they did not. They were all very spiritual.

I pray that I may suffer purgatory, even for another lost soul, because that would mean I’m on my way to Heaven! However, I will still take the plenary indulgences that I can!

**O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners. Amen. **

Amen. Amen. Amen.

Mary, our Mother and Mother of our Savior, please hear our prayers and help those who do not yet believe, to believe. Thank you and praise you for your love for us, the unworthy, the sinners, even the disbelievers.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The legitimacy of Fatima does not fall upon the followers and believers of it. Perhaps some people are more fanatical than someone would like, but it doesn’t change the facts of the original event.

It doesn’t change the facts or the event or of how it’s officially recorded (or at least I hope not).

But whether it’s true? To me I look at whether it is useful. Does it offer an insight that gives me hope? What about one that explains things for me or helps me make decisions? I get that. It’s just that between the scriptures, and what I learn on these forums already, I have plenty of guidance toward my own kingdomship in Christ, and don’t find others’ ideas about apparitions useful – and as I mentioned I’m not sure that what is popularly taken from them is even in line with Jesus’s coaching. So I don’t feel a hole that this thing is the right shape to fill.

As far as why I’m defensive, sometimes I like to talk about what Jesus is saying and doing and what that does and does not mean, and I’ve been at discussions where I just had to shut down what I thought was valid discovery, because any time it touched on something of an apparition, the woman next to me would get all wide-eyed and say, “well our Mother said this, and that.” To me, someone who insists (or effectively does by their behavior) that not only is some official narrative of Fatima taught infallibly as truth, but we cannot even have a biblical discussion or one on Church teachings without taking their thoughts and feeling about apparitions to the account, is a stumbling block for open discussion.

People shouldn’t be turned off of a devotion because they didn’t like a movie of it, or they don’t like the people they know who follow it, or how they practice it, if it’s a valid devotion. I didn’t understand the devotion to the Rosary until I started praying it. The same with the Divine Mercy. Sometimes, we are turned off by something because we are ‘jealous’ of the spirituality that they have, and it may seem like they are bragging (and true, some are). But that doesn’t make the devotion in question less true. Should all Catholics be judged by those who seem to go overboard, and kill abortion doctors? Or because their voice is annoying? Or we don’t like the way they dress? No.

Actually you have a good point, and I might soften my stance a little. I toughen it when people tell me what I “must” believe. I soften it when people tell me “this is what I think” or “this is what I see/believe” or even “this is how this makes sense to me.” But say: “believe this because you must” or even a little more tricky, “you don’t have to believe this but you are foolish and/or losing out if you don’t,” and I see yellow caution flags.

In short, the harder and more emphatically someone tries to get me to believe something they have yet to explain to me (or I have yet to comprehend it), the more I raise a wall against buying it, until someone like you expresses yourself in a non-presumptive and friendly way, and then I want to hear. I want to hear a spokesperson even for the views I’ve rejected because certain of its adherents have turned me off to it. I think this is in line with your earlier comments.

I believe in Fatima. The Church’s approval is enough for me.

That is perfectly good. The Church’s approval is the only reason I don’t completely reject it myself. I don’t believe in it, but I don’t completely rule it out. I do not, however, take “marching orders” or even rethink my relationship with Jesus, from apparitions. I have enough of my own visions on a daily basis I feel so blessed.

The saints who saw the visions, saw what they saw at the time IMO, because the Holy Spirit set it up, and their eyes of faith were open to it IMO. Saint visions are not binding on us, because they are intended for the specific situation. I personally believe the Holy Spirit even has the “publicity” under control, and knows better than I do where I personally am headed regarding the Fatima thing.

I don’t know if my wife “believes” it, but she “knows all about” it. She tried to explain all this stuff to me about the “third secret” or whatever. So at least she can help me if I honestly get curious enough to invest the time in learning more – at which I can decide whether I still don’t believe, or that I do, or that I “tentatively” or “functionally” accepted it. Either way, according to Rom 8:28, I have no doubt that whatever happened and what will stem from it will be good. I just am not one of those who plays the same particular role others do. Believing in Fatima wouldn’t be as meaningful if there weren’t those of us who don’t, so in a way I’m validating your own beliefs, right?

Thank you for presenting your case in a way that helps me align to my own without my getting triggered into feeling defensive.

There are many parts to one body. I’ll be this part; :knight2: and you can be that part, :nunchuk: and together we’ll cover all the functions. OK? :heaven:

Peace and joy,
MS

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Mary, our Mother and Mother of our Savior, please hear our prayers and help those who do not yet believe, to believe. Thank you and praise you for your love for us, the unworthy, the sinners, even the disbelievers.

I accept prayers to help me to believe in God and in the message of Jesus and Christ crucified.

And I appreciate your prayers for “disbelievers.”

But if you are praying for me to come to believe in Fatima, then I appreciate that as you loving hope for me, but I do not share that hope. I share that I may be open in mind and heart to the Lord, who may change my mind on this or maybe not.

All I ask is that you understand I am completely at peace with not believing or understanding. If I want to know more, I can ask my wife. In fact, she’s the one who explained to me for the first time why I might kneel before a statue of Mary or the saints and pray. So it isn’t out of the question, it just isn’t on the program schedule.

Please do not pity me if I don’t believe in Fatima, except in the same way I might pity you if you never heard Mozart’s Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. And as long as you don’t use it as leverage in a discussion, I don’t even mind hearing your ideas because I’m truly interested in what others think. Just don’t presume that my “part of the Body of Christ” is one who has a role of joining you or that it even should be. That could change; you are welcome to pray whatever you want on my part, but be at peace if that prayer goes answered in a way that doesn’t seem to literally follow.

MS

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The only thing I said was that it would be a gift if someone from heaven showed me the reality of hell. Hello? That’s all I said. Why did this innocuous statement spark such vitriol from you? You have me confused with another poster. I never addressed you at all. Please get your facts straight before you go off half-cocked.

No, you said a great deal more than that, and as I have explained implied even more by supposition. I don’t see any likely value in my going over it again: :whackadoo:

If you don’t see my view by now, then the Holy Spirit must not need you to at this point in our mortal lives. Thank you for engaging me in this conversation, and for doing your best to parse out your thoughts to help me understand. I feel I must let go in terms of defending or explaining at least for now, lest I disturb your peace by my demeanor, my attitude, or my style of conversation with you. If I get you agitated and upset because I tell you that you are binding me to beliefs the Church does not require, then I have not brought you peace so I’m not sure it’s good to continue to answer you directly, and please accept my apology if I’ve made you feel put down. :imsorry:

Peace and joy,
MS

 

[ccmcmg]

It doesn’t change the facts or the event or of how it’s officially recorded (or at least I hope not).

But whether it’s true? To me I look at whether it is useful. Does it offer an insight that gives me hope? What about one that explains things for me or helps me make decisions? I get that. It’s just that between the scriptures, and what I learn on these forums already, I have plenty of guidance toward my own kingdomship in Christ, and don’t find others’ ideas about apparitions useful – and as I mentioned I’m not sure that what is popularly taken from them is even in line with Jesus’s coaching. So I don’t feel a hole that this thing is the right shape to fill.

I understand. Perhaps the reason that there are more than one or two apparitions of Mary appearing is for that reason; perhaps Fatima doesn’t ‘touch’ you. Perhaps Guadalupe doesn’t ‘touch’ you. Or Lourdes…or…any of them. That’s okay. Each of us is unique; our experiences and development our own. My encounters of love with the Holy Spirit may sound almost fanatical to some (even though He is God). I try not to sound that way, or pompous, but to some, it could likely come across that way, especially if there is an underlying feeling that colors their perspective as well. It’s not always just how something is presented, but in how we receive it based on our own lives.

The Scriptures are important to me, and I need to study more of them. I’m blessed enough that I can see Him speaking in my daily life so much, and perhaps, as who I am, that along with what I’ve learned in Scripture moves me forward. I also turn to the Rosary and the Divine Mercy, as well as various prayers from the ages, not to mention the Sacraments. Please don’t get me wrong; I have a long way to go; I don’t pray enough or do enough; I never will be able to, but I must always do ‘more’. I’m a fallen sinner every time I turn around. Only through His Grace am I alive today, alive on earth and in Him. God meets us where we are at, and where we want to be. One of my sisters has a very high intellect, and one a very low one; they wouldn’t be able to process events or learning in the same way, but neither is wrong.

As far as why I’m defensive, sometimes I like to talk about what Jesus is saying and doing and what that does and does not mean, and I’ve been at discussions where I just had to shut down what I thought was valid discovery, because any time it touched on something of an apparition, the woman next to me would get all wide-eyed and say, “well our Mother said this, and that.” To me, someone who insists (or effectively does by their behavior) that not only is some official narrative of Fatima taught infallibly as truth, but we cannot even have a biblical discussion or one on Church teachings without taking their thoughts and feeling about apparitions to the account, is a stumbling block for open discussion.

I totally get that! I haven’t been able to consecrate myself to Mary, which is quite popular in my region right now, with a HUGE push from others. There are some who see it as the BEST and ONLY way to get closer to God and Heaven. Right now, I’m concentrating on my relationship with the Holy Spirit. My temperament is one that, if someone tells me I MUST do something, especially when I’m not ready or don’t believe in my heart it’s right for me, is one of major resistance and being repelled. Is Mary repelling me and turning me off? No. It’s us broken humans. None of us has 100% purity in our hearts at all times. But even as I draw closer to God in the Spirit, I’ve been turned off by fellow Catholics doing the same, because of their level of devotion and how it’s portrayed. But, perhaps, the way it doesn’t invite me, it DOES invite someone else just like them who needs to be devoted in a similar way. God has blessed us so much in the Catholic Church, with so many facets of the sun reflecting in a diamond in a pure clean lake, to chose to grow closer to Him.

I’ve had ‘Marian’ encounters myself, and I treasure them deeply. But I haven’t felt the draw or the need to be further consecrated to her, today. Do I share them? When called, I do. But I try to present them in a way that makes it clear that while important to me, I’m sharing so that the other person can know it can happen even to the worst of us, at unexpected times. Sometimes, it’s easy to come across as ‘it happened to me, I am so good’, and that’s not how it works, or should work. My encounters with God as the Father and Holy Spirit are also specific to me, and may or may not help others; I let Him decide. We must remember to humble ourselves before the Lord, be filled with His Humility, before even sharing the Treasures He has given to us.

To be continued…

 

[Techno2000]

No, you said a great deal more than that, and as I have explained implied even more by supposition. I don’t see any likely value in my going over it again: :whackadoo:

If you don’t see my view by now, then the Holy Spirit must not need you to at this point in our mortal lives. Thank you for engaging me in this conversation, and for doing your best to parse out your thoughts to help me understand. I feel I must let go in terms of defending or explaining at least for now, lest I disturb your peace by my demeanor, my attitude, or my style of conversation with you. If I get you agitated and upset because I tell you that you are binding me to beliefs the Church does not require, then I have not brought you peace so I’m not sure it’s good to continue to answer you directly, and please accept my apology if I’ve made you feel put down. :imsorry:

Peace and joy,
MS

Hi Mystical Seeker, it would seem to me by your name that you would gravitate towards Mystical and Supernatural things like Fatima.

 

[ccmcmg]

Actually you have a good point, and I might soften my stance a little. I toughen it when people tell me what I “must” believe. I soften it when people tell me “this is what I think” or “this is what I see/believe” or even “this is how this makes sense to me.” But say: “believe this because you must” or even a little more tricky, “you don’t have to believe this but you are foolish and/or losing out if you don’t,” and I see yellow caution flags.

In short, the harder and more emphatically someone tries to get me to believe something they have yet to explain to me (or I have yet to comprehend it), the more I raise a wall against buying it, until someone like you expresses yourself in a non-presumptive and friendly way, and then I want to hear. I want to hear a spokesperson even for the views I’ve rejected because certain of its adherents have turned me off to it. I think this is in line with your earlier comments.

I appreciate that. I understand what you are saying quite well, having encountered similarly. Thank you for accepting my comments, even though we aren’t on the same exact pathway (but to the same place, I pray!); they were surely God leading us both in the right direction. I wasn’t expecting such a great response to my post (from anyone who disagrees, not necessarily you). We all can be a little tense when we don’t think we are getting ‘heard’. Your heart is very open and tender.

Thank you for presenting your case in a way that helps me align to my own without my getting triggered into feeling defensive.
There are many parts to one body. I’ll be this part; :knight2: and you can be that part, :nunchuk: and together we’ll cover all the functions. OK? :heaven:

Peace and joy,
MS

And a return of peace and joy to you, kind angel. Thanks for your kind and warm response.

I accept prayers to help me to believe in God and in the message of Jesus and Christ crucified.

And I appreciate your prayers for “disbelievers.”

But if you are praying for me to come to believe in Fatima, then I appreciate that as you loving hope for me, but I do not share that hope. I share that I may be open in mind and heart to the Lord, who may change my mind on this or maybe not.

I’m not praying for anyone to believe in Fatima or any apparition; I’m praying that our hearts and souls be filled with our Lord’s Love and Grace. For some, it might be Fatima, but whatever it is that will bring us closer to our ultimate goal, as well as His, that is what I pray for. God knows what is needed. He knows that when I pray for ‘X’ or ‘Y’ generically, that I intend for it to be for what is needed, because I surely have no idea! I pray for certain people to feel His Love, especially for an acquaintance whose husband was killed in a shoot out by thugs at their store just last Friday.

The disbelievers part was not for those not believing in Fatima, but those not believing in God, especially in our Savior.

All I ask is that you understand I am completely at peace with not believing or understanding. If I want to know more, I can ask my wife. In fact, she’s the one who explained to me for the first time why I might kneel before a statue of Mary or the saints and pray. So it isn’t out of the question, it just isn’t on the program schedule.

Please do not pity me if I don’t believe in Fatima, except in the same way I might pity you if you never heard Mozart’s Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. And as long as you don’t use it as leverage in a discussion, I don’t even mind hearing your ideas because I’m truly interested in what others think. Just don’t presume that my “part of the Body of Christ” is one who has a role of joining you or that it even should be. That could change; you are welcome to pray whatever you want on my part, but be at peace if that prayer goes answered in a way that doesn’t seem to literally follow.

MS

I feel no pity for you. I feel thankful for you, blessed by you, but no pity. I’m at peace with your not believing or understanding, too! You can never know God in the same way I do, because we are different, and vice versa. But we have our One True God, and we are Loved by Him, and love Him, in our own unique fashion. Each of our parts in the Body of Christ is important, and can complement each other if we let it. It’s easy to feel envious or jealous of others’ gifts, but we shouldn’t, and I try hard not to do so. I have my own Gifts from God to take care of.

Thank you, Father, for Mystical Seeker and the blessings and gifts You’ve bestowed on him, and bless MS each and every day of his life.

Now, I’m off to find some Mozart!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Hi Mystical Seeker, it would seem to me by your name that you would gravitate towards Mystical and Supernatural things like Fatima.

I do. But those that come to me mystically, plus whatever empathy I have with saints, more than other accounts. Or with people their own visions and dreams. I don’t know how to figure them out, but I like to hear them.

And a return of peace and joy to you, kind angel. Thanks for your kind and warm response.

And you as well.

The disbelievers part was not for those not believing in Fatima, but those not believing in God, especially in our Savior.

Gotcha.

I feel no pity for you. I feel thankful for you, blessed by you, but no pity. I’m at peace with your not believing or understanding, too!

You really do understand!

Now, I’m off to find some Mozart!

Sounds great! My pastor is a sucker for Mozart or Debussy. :harp:

I have been blessed by reading your post! :heaven:

MS

 

[Ed_Silvia]

Peace brothers & sisters in Christ.

Thanks everybody for sharing and expressing their thoughts & feelings regarding Our lady of Fatima and the Fatima Apparitions of 1917.

First, a couple of points should be clarified. Our Lady showed the children hell only after she promised them they all would go to Heaven. St Lucy said that was the only thing that keeped them from dying of fright. Our Lady said souls of sinners go to hell **because there is no one to pray for them. ** That is the real reason! That is what Fatima is all about. **"He (Jesus) wants to use you (St Lucy) to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart " ** The devotion to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart is the same form for us as that of the three children “Do you wish to offer yourselves to God, to endure all the suffering that He may please to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and to ask for the conversion of sinners?” In other words our very lives, like theirs become an offering for the salvation of souls when we offer to Jesus through Mary, in the morning offering prayer the fulfillment of our daily duties while maintaining a state of sanctifying grace. Coupled with the daily recitation of 5 decades of the rosary & the wearing of the brown scapular as an outward sign all that is left is to visit confession & Mass on or within the octave of 5 first Saturdays and we have faithfully fulfilled the wishes of Our Lady of Fatima as set forth by St Lucy who’s goal it was to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Okay then, this is Jesus’ solution for the salvation of souls as expressed at Fatima. What’s in it for us?

“I promise salvation to those who embrace it, and their souls will be loved by God as flowers placed by myself to adorn His throne.” Lucy asked: “Will I stay here alone”?, “Don’t be discouraged , I will not abandon you ever. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and through it will conduct you to God.” Then She opened her hands and emanated her light on the children, Giacinta and Francis seemed to be in the light that went up toward the sky, Lucy in the light that spread on the earth. In front of the palm of the right hand of the Lady there was a heart surrounded by thorns that impaled it. They understood that it was the Immaculate Heart of Mary affronted from the sins of men, and She then asked for reparation.

These things are worthy of belief.

 

[onenow1]

From my point of view why would the children take it to there grave if it were not true ?
Also Sister Lucia of recent times had gained nothing if she were lying.

God Bless

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

…

… and we have faithfully fulfilled the wishes of Our Lady of Fatima as set forth by St Lucy who’s goal it was to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Oh, well as I understand it then, this is intended to be a set of practices, i.e. discipline, that she is recommending. That sounds ok to me, if I have that right. And I think it’s great that she has so many people who want to do it.

But I ask that nobody either pity, or try to fix me, if I would rather just watch nd admire, rather than participate. I then hereby “delegate” it to those of you who love to do it and know all about it.

Okay then, this is Jesus’ solution for the salvation of souls as expressed at Fatima. What’s in it for us?

If you believe so, that’s great. At this time, I’ll not either agree nor disagree, due to lack of knowledge to opine. :takeoff:

These things are worthy of belief.

I think I can see why you would say that! :yyeess:

MS

 

[cena]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

A secular newspaper published a story about it and an atheist communist trying to stop people from talking about it admitted that it happened.

If you read about the consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary it a consecration to Jesus through the immaculate heart of Mary, she isn’t the last stop.

What do you mean there’s only one virgin? There have been so many virgin saints I’m assuming you meant to say there is one Virgin Mary. To that I say it’s the same person.

Catholics didn’t blindly accept it, the Church approved it and so we believe it (although it is not required to do so)

 

[Denise1957]

Thank you.
This is similar to my experiences with fatima fanatics. It seems to me that these people crave the excitement of doomsday prophecies and they just cant wait for the day until all the unbelievers are thrown into hell and tortured in horrible ways for all eternity because they smoked some pot and said a few cuss words. Thats what all these people are like. They arent interested in hearing about Gods mercy or forgiveness. That would be boring! They want the juicy stuff like sinners being tortured and corruption in the church.

Although like you im keeping an open mind.

It can be difficult to talk to those who are somewhat fanatic about Fatima, to the point that they only focus on consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart. I think that their intentions are good, in that they believe that it will bring needed peace to the world. But the Blessed Virgin also told the children to pray much for sinners. I think that it would be better to pray for sinners than to focus so much on the consecration. The consecration is out of our hands. But we can always pray, which is always worthwhile.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

It takes a certain docile soul to devote itself to Our Lady. Although our Church demands we recognize Her Immaculate Conception and Assumption into Heaven, in it’s wisdom, it places the onus with us to act in faith toward Her…or not.

 

[sepgs2004]

Dear friends
Greetings in the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sorry I did not read every post.

However, I read Fatima book in my language when I was 26. Until now, I never understood too much of the messages, especially its significance in Church. I also was not inspired to try much to understand as well. Anytime I try, I get some feeling not to. I do not know why. I could clearly say that I was only blessed to take the crux of the whole thing.

However, it is my first (very first) spiritual book. I have no doubt that it turned my life u-turn from God-less to God-full. I am not saying that is all. I am saying God showed His Love to me through that book.

From that moment, I feel an urge to pray often. From the way kids did penance, I feel an urge to adjust with people around and pray for them.

God could have inspired me through many other things. Well… I strongly believe God started in my life in that age. One of the major strings is this Fatima story.

I am not expecting to understand the full significance of the visions, other than Loving God more, doing penance as much as possible in Love, etc.

Thank you…

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

It takes a certain docile soul to devote itself to Our Lady. Although our Church demands we recognize Her Immaculate Conception and Assumption into Heaven, in it’s wisdom, it places the onus with us to act in faith toward Her…or not.

However, I do not map “acting in faith toward her” as “believing in and heeding the advice given in apparitions.” :tsktsk:

All I have to do is “what Jesus said,” and as far as I’m concerned, I’m acting in faith toward her. :bible1:

Going by apparitions is some people’s Particular “Flavor” of acting in faith toward her. Just because you like may think tutti-frutti ice cream is much more interesting and enriching than vanilla, doesn’t mean vanilla is no longer a valid flavor; in fact it is the most popular flavor.