Why I'm Still Not Catholic

[toothdigger]

They also have the obligation and the right to become Catholics, but what are the chances of that ever happening?

No, they prefer to just pick and choose - they think it’s a cafeteria and that the variety of things are “choices”; they don’t realize that it’s a banquet, and we are supposed to partake of everything.

Hi.
Jesus said, Suffer the little children to come unto Me. I am not sure that Baptists even know of the Holy Eucharist or of the Roman Catholic Church.
I think it is the responsibility of Roman Catholics to be more gentle in their approach to those of us who have never heard the “truth” of the apostolic Church.
I have respect for the Catholic faith; it is the Catholics lack of respect (sometimes) of those who truly follow what they know of the Lord that saddens me.
I take the Holy Eucharist because I respect the Church, not because I do not. If that is egotistical (as another person posted towards me) then so be it. I humbly place my hands into the proper position, make my confession as I know to do now, and accept what is offered to me.
The Lord loves me as much as He loves you; you (Roman Catholics) I guess are just His favorite…
:tiphat:

 

[toothdigger]

Joseph Smith: I thank you for your participation in this thread! As you may have read, I myself am not fully convinced of the truth of every Catholic teaching. However, my studies have shown me that much of what I used to believe about Catholicism turned out to be false. I hope your time on this board is very educational and useful.

Okay. And as soon as I believe I know which way God is telling me forward is, I will step in that direction.

Sigh…I should point out that I’m not remaining anywhere. I have been actively studying Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, attending Mass and Divine Liturgy in their churches, and trying to discern the will of God. I have already left the harbor of Protestantism, and I’m at sea trying to find the harbor of my true home.

And yet a decision has to be made. I can’t make a move until I know which direction the move should be. If I’m standing at a crossroads, I can’t just step forward. I have to choose a path.

Sigh…again…I have not remained in any Protestant church, nor am I choosing to be Protestant. The fact that I am trying to choose between Catholicism and Orthodoxy does not mean I am still a Protestant by default. I am searching for the true Church, and the fact that I have not found it yet does not mean I have given up the search. Nor does the fact that I have not yet found the truth mean that I am deliberately choosing falsehood.

As I said before, I am actively studying Catholicism and Orthodoxy, attending Mass and Divine Liturgy at their churches, and trying to discern the will of God. If you see these as the actions of someone who has chosen to remain Protestant, then I am a bit confused, and I do not know quite how to respond.

It is my understanding that to become Catholic, I would have to say that I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches. I believe it is the same way for the Orthodox Church. Now, since I am still trying to discern the truth and have not made up my mind, I could not make such a statement. To do so would be to lie to God Himself. I truly fail to see how lying to God is preferable to holding off on making a decision.

So, at this point, I cannot simply say, “Well, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are both better than Protestantism, so I might as well flip a coin and join one.” It would not be honest, as I said. I need to make an informed decision.

Thanks to Contarini for explaining my position so well.

God bless you all and thank you for your participation in this thread!

Iambic Pen!
Thank you for stating my very position so well. Do you, when you participate in Mass, take the Eucharist or do you refrain? If you don’t mind me asking…
Thanks again! This is a great thread!
:clapping:

 

[toothdigger]

Sorry, but you obey the Lord when you obey His Church. “He who hears you hears me.”

You are very foolish to disregard the counsel of the Church. I learned this lesson the hard way. Do you think you are smarter than the Church?

If you trust that the Church can give you the Body and Blood of Christ, why don’t you trust its instructions about the Eucharist?

Either become a Catholic or abstain from the Eucharist. You can’t have it both ways.

Hi,

Just a few quotes from John 6

“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.’”

‘…he who feeds on this bread will live forever.’

‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.’

‘I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.’

‘All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.’

Thanks, and God bless us all.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I realize that this is a very simplistic response especially after having read some of the earlier excellent essays…but…have you tried simply relying on faith, prayer and the Holy Spirit?

Well, I have prayed, I have tried to have faith, and I have tried to rely on the Holy Spirit. Still, I have not yet found a solid answer. I will keep praying, though, and I ask that all who read this would pray for me as well.

Why can only Catholics participate in true communion when Jesus clearly says that without communion we do not belong to Him?

Because communion implies union. If you are not in union with the Catholic Church and have not accepted its authority in matters such as the Eucharist, you really should not participate.

How can Mary be co-redemptrix when our God is a jealous God? and will not share glory with any other?

Many have glory of some level or another, and this does not, in any way, take away from the incomparable glory of God.

How can Mary be without sin when the scripture clearly teaches that “no not one is without sin” except Jesus Christ?

Difficult to say, as I am not sure whether or not to accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. However, there are many who have never committed any sins, such as infants, for example. One could see “no not one is without sin” as a general rule, or it could also refer to the fact that all are affected by original sin (something else I don’t fully accept yet) and that even Mary would have been affected by it had not God deliberately saved her from it at the moment of her conception.

And then, there are the Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy claiming to be the part of the one true church and adding confusion.

I don’t know much about the old Catholics, but the Eastern Orthodox claim to be the one true Church, not just a part of it.

I always believed that the one true church is the body of believers - all of us together under one Head, our Lord and Savior via the Holy Spirit.

A common Protestant belief, and one I was quite comfortable holding myself, until recently.

Hmmm… I remember a few moths ago Pope Benidict XVI once adressed the same thing, yet he announced that this belief is only a theological idea from Saint Augustine and have dennounced it from doctrine and has never been in doctrne. However, Im not really sure about this, but ill let you know where I have found this info…it’s just that I need to find it.

Yes, I agree that limbo is not official Catholic teaching. However, I wonder then how the more affirming statements about the possible salvation of the unbaptized can be reconciled with statements made in the past.

Iambic Pen!
Thank you for stating my very position so well. Do you, when you participate in Mass, take the Eucharist or do you refrain?

I absolutely do not take the Eucharist, nor will I for as long as I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

God bless!

 

[jmcrae]

I absolutely do not take the Eucharist, nor will I for as long as I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

THANK YOU for being an educated and civilized individual who shows respect for other cultures and beliefs that he does not share.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi.
Jesus said, Suffer the little children to come unto Me. I am not sure that Baptists even know of the Holy Eucharist or of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they don’t, then there is no problem.

I take the Holy Eucharist because I respect the Church, not because I do not.

If you really understood what you do, then you would say “receive” instead of “take,” since Catholics do not “take” Holy Communion; we “receive” it from Him.

If that is egotistical (as another person posted towards me) then so be it. I humbly place my hands into the proper position, make my confession as I know to do now, and accept what is offered to me.

“Make your confession?” We go to Confession before the Mass begins, usually …

What do you mean by this?

The Lord loves me as much as He loves you …

Of course He does - in fact He loves you so much that He doesn’t want you doing things that you don’t really understand very well, AND He has great respect for your intelligence, and won’t allow you to be treated like someone who is mentally incompetent, which is why He wants you to follow the same proper procedures that He demands of every other competent person - to go to RCIA and to be prepared for the Sacraments first, and then begin to receive them, in the fulness of time.

 

[toothdigger]

I did not add the quote - sorry, but someone said that I used “take” in regards to the Holy Eucharist. I actually also used “accept” which implies that I receive the Eucharist. I know that Jesus gives His Body and Blood to me and for me as His child. I do not take it; rather, I receive it as a gift.

How anyone could deny another sister or brother in Christ His Body and Blood which He freely offers us, I do not understand.

And this is definitely not a lack of respect towards His Church.

 

[jmcrae]

How anyone could deny another sister or brother in Christ His Body and Blood which He freely offers us, I do not understand.

Jesus freely offers it to His Church; not to just anybody randomly wandering along. Have you read the 11th chapter of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians?

And this is definitely not a lack of respect towards His Church.

Why not just become Catholic? That would solve the whole problem right there.

 

[toothdigger]

First, I am a believer, therefore I am a member of His Church - I am part of His Body…

Second, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are *necessary for salvation.* 51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature 52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

Third: Yes - I have read I Corinthians 11. As I have written before, I recognize that the bread and wine are the TRUE body and blood of Christ, not a representation or a symbol.

Finally -

The statement most disturbing in Paul’s letter (for me anyway) is “when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you…”

 

[jmcrae]

First, I am a believer, therefore I am a member of His Church - I am part of His Body.

Even the demons believe, in the sense of knowing who Jesus is and knowing how the Sacraments work, but they are not members of the Church, and they cannot be admitted to Holy Communion.

Second, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are *necessary for salvation.* 51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature 52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

So, when are you going to partake of the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Reconciliation? Since these are just as necessary for our salvation as the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

Third: Yes - I have read I Corinthians 11. As I have written before, I recognize that the bread and wine are the TRUE body and blood of Christ, not a representation or a symbol.

That’s a good start - but it’s not the finish line, yet.

Finally -

The statement most disturbing in Paul’s letter (for me anyway) is “when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you…”

And did he not also say that those who are divided from the Church should not partake of the Sacraments until they come together in unity again?

 

[toothdigger]

Even the demons believe, in the sense of knowing who Jesus is and knowing how the Sacraments work, but they are not members of the Church, and they cannot be admitted to Holy Communion.

I am a believer/follower/worshiper/saved individual; not a demon…

So, when are you going to partake of the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Reconciliation? Since these are just as necessary for our salvation as the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

“I have been baptized and confirmed within the Church and Jesus has reconciled me to Him…and confession and prayer are a part of my daily walk with Christ via the Holy Spirit…again I am not a demon.”

That’s a good start - but it’s not the finish line, yet.

“I agree, receiving Christ via Communion is the starting line…for all believers/followers/worshipers/saved individuals…”

And did he not also say that those who are divided from the Church should not partake of the Sacraments until they come together in unity again?

“No, actually Paul fought for unity among all believers - fighting for unity of belief… I believe the Nicene creed just as you do… that is the unity that Christ wishes for us…at least let’s hope so…for the greatest sin of the Church (the entire body of believers) is its division…”

Take care that you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit who resides in me as He resides in you…:tsktsk:

In Christ,

 

[Janet_S]

To Toothdigger:

If the CC truly speaks with the authority she says she has (the voice of Christ in the world today), you cannot dismiss any of her teachings by saying “I understand what the CC is teaching, I just don’t agree with it.” That would be the same as saying to Christ: “I know what you are saying, Jesus, I just don’t happen to agree with you.”

If the CC doesn’t have the authority she says she has, then she is a liar. Why do you trust a liar and want her Eucharist anyway?

Of course, I and most Catholics, believe the CC is what she claims to be and speaks with the voice of Christ in the world today. That is why I respect what she says about receiving Holy Communion in a state of grace and as a sign of unity of belief. I believe all the CC teaches, even though her teachings are not always easy to live by. With regard to authority from Christ, either the CC is truthful or she is lying. There is no middle ground.

There must be some teaching of the Catholic Church’s that is keeping you away. What teaching is keeping you from joining the CC?

 

[toothdigger]

To Toothdigger:

If the CC truly speaks with the authority she says she has (the voice of Christ in the world today), you cannot dismiss any of her teachings by saying “I understand what the CC is teaching, I just don’t agree with it.” That would be the same as saying to Christ: “I know what you are saying, Jesus, I just don’t happen to agree with you.”

If the CC doesn’t have the authority she says she has, then she is a liar. Why do you trust a liar and want her Eucharist anyway?

Of course, I and most Catholics, believe the CC is what she claims to be and speaks with the voice of Christ in the world today. That is why I respect what she says about receiving Holy Communion in a state of grace and as a sign of unity of belief. I believe all the CC teaches, even though her teachings are not always easy to live by. With regard to authority from Christ, either the CC is truthful or she is lying. There is no middle ground.

There must be some teaching of the Catholic Church’s that is keeping you away. What teaching is keeping you from joining the CC?

Janet,

Thank you so much for your kind approach! You have no idea how refreshing your words are…

I agree that I am between a rock and a hard place. I spent a weekend in late September at an abbey and discovered the Catholic faith via the 7 offices of the monks. I received the Eucharist that first morning, and prayed before the Blessed Sacrament. Once one tastes of the full goodness of Christ, believe me, it is hard to refrain from that point on… at the time, I had no idea what I was doing. I just thought it was a communion; I already believed that in communion we receive the true body and blood of Jesus, so that was not an issue…for me anyway.

Your question as to why I have not joined the Catholic Church is the KEY question. I have difficulty with the teaching of Mary’s immaculate conception, the infallibility of the papacy in matters of doctrine, the addition of “and the Son” in the Nicene creed in terms of the Holy Spirit, praying to saints and to Mary rather than to Christ directly…

I have little difficulty with the authority of the priesthood, or with confession prior to receiving communion.

I do have difficulty with the attitude that other Christians are not really Christian, and may be in jeopardy… I have difficulty believing that the Body of Christ, the true Church, is not spread among many many denominations and that this is the tragedy; that we can not come back together under the one true Head: our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Finally:

I believe in salvation via grace with good works following salvation as outpourings of gratitude primarily. In other words, we are obedient to God because He first loved us. Because salvation is a gift from God, no one can boast… we can only gratefully accept His love and reflect it to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thanks for asking.
In Him,

 

[jmcrae]

Your question as to why I have not joined the Catholic Church is the KEY question. I have difficulty with the teaching of Mary’s immaculate conception, the infallibility of the papacy in matters of doctrine, the addition of “and the Son” in the Nicene creed in terms of the Holy Spirit, praying to saints and to Mary rather than to Christ directly.

If these things are false, then so is our Eucharist.

But if our Eucharist is true, then so are all these things. Either all of it is totally false, or all of it is totally true, since either this is Christ’s Church, or it is a demonic counterfeit - there is no middle ground, here.

 

[Sixtus]

o, here I am today, hoping and believing that the true Church does exist and can be found, yet still being unable to know where it is. Having two different people point at two different Churches and shout out how obvious the answer is has, oddly enough, not been very helpful.

To get to the title, then, what still keeps me from becoming Catholic? For the sake of ease, and because I’m getting tired , I’ll simply make a list:

1. I am still not convinced that the Catholic view of papal primacy is the correct one, or that it was the view truly held by the united Church.

You may want to consider reading Pope St Clement’s letter to the early church. It is not in the bible but is considered as part of the CC’s canon. Well worth reading.

 

[toothdigger]

If these things are false, then so is our Eucharist.

But if our Eucharist is true, then so are all these things. Either all of it is totally false, or all of it is totally true, since either this is Christ’s Church, or it is a demonic counterfeit - there is no middle ground, here.

The Catholic Church is not a demonic counterfeit. The Catholic Eucharist is valid because it is the true Body and Blood of our Lord.

As for me, I am in process of converting to Catholicism; I am just having issues with doctrines which are NEW to me. It is a process for me in that I am a mature (age wise) adult Christian who was “born again” at baptism at the tender age of 5 and made my “adult” confession of my willingness to follow Christ at 10. This is a long time to be in one sort of body of believers and then decide to change. I still have questions and until I am satisfied that I believe that apostolic succession is valid and that the Roman Catholic claim to it is “true” as compared to the Old Catholics… I will keep thinking, keep asking questions, and … well, it is a long story.

The more one knows, the more one should realize there is more to find out…

In Him,

 

[toothdigger]

You may want to consider reading Pope St Clement’s letter to the early church. It is not in the bible but is considered as part of the CC’s canon. Well worth reading.

Is the letter available to read online? Would you mind providing the hyperlink if you know of it? Thanks so much!

 

[toothdigger]

Is the letter available to read online? Would you mind providing the hyperlink if you know of it?
Thanks so much!

I found it! Thanks again. Here is the web address for anyone who’d like to take your advice.

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/422/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians__St._Clement.html

 

[jmcrae]

The Catholic Church is not a demonic counterfeit. The Catholic Eucharist is valid because it is the true Body and Blood of our Lord.

As for me, I am in process of converting to Catholicism; I am just having issues with doctrines which are NEW to me. It is a process for me in that I am a mature (age wise) adult Christian who was “born again” at baptism at the tender age of 5 and made my “adult” confession of my willingness to follow Christ at 10. This is a long time to be in one sort of body of believers and then decide to change. I still have questions and until I am satisfied that I believe that apostolic succession is valid and that the Roman Catholic claim to it is “true” as compared to the Old Catholics… I will keep thinking, keep asking questions, and … well, it is a long story.

The more one knows, the more one should realize there is more to find out…

In Him,

I still think that you should refrain from receiving Holy Communion until it comes time for your First Holy Communion (even though that term is already meaningless - but it refers to the Holy Communion that you receive at your Initiation into the Church). Waiting for it until you have completed all of your preparations to enter the Church will make it seem more special, don’t you think?

 

[toothdigger]

I still think that you should refrain from receiving Holy Communion until it comes time for your First Holy Communion (even though that term is already meaningless - but it refers to the Holy Communion that you receive at your Initiation into the Church). Waiting for it until you have completed all of your preparations to enter the Church will make it seem more special, don’t you think?

I really do appreciate this - at this point, having participated in the Liturgy and having received the Holy Eucharist from the hands of an Abbot (and other priests) over a period of 4 months now and usually once a week… I can not imagine going backwards…

As I said, the more I find out, the more I see I do not know and the more I want to know and understand…

It is a process…sometimes a bit circular…

In Him,:tiphat: