Why is artificial birth control usage so wrong?

[Corki]

edwest2;6983241:

CATHOLICS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL AND THAT’S WHAT THEY/WE DO. PERIOD. END OF STORY. THE REST OF YOUR JIBBERISH ABOUT CONTROLLING SEXUALITY, ETC, IS JUST THAT, JIBBERISH. WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?

No need to yell. Of course you are free to choose artificial birth control. But freedom does not equal a moral choice. You are “free” to murder your next door neighbor, beat your wife, cheat on your taxes or go 100 mph down a residential street. Each of those free choices would have consequences. Disobeying the Church’s teaching on sexuality and marriage also has consequences. The End of the Story doesn’t come until the consequences are satisfied.

If you chose to disobey the Church, no one is holding a gun to your head. But don’t pretend that it’s ok to act in a way that is against Church teaching. It’s not.

 

[murphjos]

edwest2;6983241:

Catholics are not free to choose Artificial Birth Control. Period. End of story.

CATHOLICS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL AND THAT’S WHAT THEY/WE DO. PERIOD. END OF STORY. THE REST OF YOUR JIBBERISH ABOUT CONTROLLING SEXUALITY, ETC, IS JUST THAT, JIBBERISH. WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?

Wow. No quotes from dissident priests, no statistics, just a good old fashioned tantrum…

 

[bingbang]

Timely comment. We expect people to exercise discipline in all parts of their lives. Prudence and self-control are considered virtues and not just by Christians. Did you listen to the readings at Mass yesterday? Discipline is put in place because God loves us.

Let me answer a question with a question. 40 years ago, people were proud to exercise self-control, not only in matters of sex but also in finances, pride, modesty, exercise, etc. Why is modern mad so weak when just over a generation ago, man had the ability to control their passions? Not perfectly, of course, but to listen to some people go on, in less than 2 generations, humans have become sex-adicts who can’t possibly be expected to exercise even a modest amount of self control. Why? Aren’t we supposed to be evolving as a society, not reverting to pre-historical values and behavior patterns?

I think it is just more accepted now so people are doing it more. And why not do something that feels good if it isn’t a bad thing in your opinion? I don’t think that people valued self control more 60 years ago, I just think that since it wasn’t accepted in that society to be sexually active before marriage people didn’t do it as much.

 

[Vezelay]

Wow. No quotes from dissident priests, no statistics, just a good old fashioned tantrum…

How do you find a simple statement of fact to be a tantrum?

By the way, there is no pretending that “it is okay.” It is okay. We are faithful members of the church. Admit that the church has changed. There isn’t much that you can do about it despite all your ranting and gnashing of teeth. Relax. This is the way things are.

I’m glad I’m going away tomorrow on a computerless vacation. No more threats. No condemnations. Ahhhhhhhhh…

 

[bingbang]

How do you find a simple statement of fact to be a tantrum?

By the way, there is no pretending that “it is okay.” It is okay. We are faithful members of the church. Admit that the church has changed. There isn’t much that you can do about it despite all your ranting and gnashing of teeth. Relax. This is the way things are.

I’m glad I’m going away tomorrow on a computerless vacation. No more threats. No condemnations. Ahhhhhhhhh…

I am not a faithful Catholic by any means, but if you want to follow church teaching ABC is NOT ok. It is a sin and it has been condemned by the church for a long time. If you don’t value the church’s teachings, then it is fine you say its ok. If you want to follow what the church teaches, ABC is definitely a sin…you can’t even argue it.

On a side note I use ABC and don’t think it is bad but I don’t really follow the church’s teachings.

 

[casey_zia]

I’m glad I’m going away tomorrow on a computerless vacation. No more threats. No condemnations. Ahhhhhhhhh…

Threats? Condemnations? For all your convoluted arguments and quotes from dissident Catholics, your comments have been dealt with in a most civil, charitable, humble manner.

Have a good vacation. I think those of us following this thread will miss you! :yup:

 

[choose_to_love]

Veze: how can a statement of fact be a tantrum

Perhaps it was the use of all caps. Just sayin’. It seems to me that the only one ranting and gnashing has been you.

Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy, which leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Before you go, can you explain whether Christ is really present in the Eucharist anymore, since a majority do not believe so, in your understanding of the sensus fidelium?

Have a safe and blessed trip.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Yes, the truth is the truth and the truth is that the church cannot/will not have us “find our way” since we are not lost. We receive the sacraments with completely clear conscience. The church has been in error many times and has eventually apologized and changed its teachings and that will surely happen again. We, the people of God, are hopeful and we pray that the church leaders come to their senses. We are confident that they will as they have in the past. We are optimistic on this issue.

The Church will NEVER change her views on ABC. And any Catholic who is using ABC is sinning, needs to go to Confession, and atone.

This will not change. You can be as optimistic as you want but this will not change.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Can people control their sexuality? Of course. Do most want to do so? No…and really why should you expect them to do so? This is especially true if they aren’t Catholic or even Christian. You shouldn’t try to enforce your morals on people that don’t believe in them.

There is a big problem with this type of thinking. Moral relativism does not work. What if someone believes that killing an innocent person is perfectly fine. Who are we to tell him (or her) he/she is wrong?

So let’s legalize murder. 'Kay?

 

[Corki]

I am not a faithful Catholic by any means, but if you want to follow church teaching ABC is NOT ok. It is a sin and it has been condemned by the church for a long time. If you don’t value the church’s teachings, then it is fine you say its ok. If you want to follow what the church teaches, ABC is definitely a sin…you can’t even argue it.

Mark this date in your calendar. I agree with you 100%

 

[LittleSoldier]

Then why have Catholics in the US and throughout the world chosen to limited the size of their families to that of the rest of the population by using birth control? We love our children just as much as you do, I daresay.

As for hazards to women, pregnancies present the greatest number of problems, abortion the next highest, and birth control the lowest number of hazards. It makes sense, doesn’t it? The world is a healthier place for women when they are able to control their reproductive lives. Let us all work for a world that provides for planning families for the greatest benefits for children and for parents

Argumentum ad populum. It doesn’t matter if every single Catholic in the world embraces ABC with open arms. It is wrong, the Church has stated it is wrong, and Truth is not determined by popular vote.

As for hazards to women, NFP has less problems than ABC and is more effective when used properly (and believe me, it is easy to use).

Some “contraceptives” today work by preventing implantation. That means an abortion has occured. The amounts of hormones in the pill have been changed. Do you love the children that died because of the use of these types of “contraceptives”? Do you love them enough to let them live? That is real love.

I used to think like you. I was wrong. The Church is correct in her stance on contraception.

 

[LittleSoldier]

1. The rantings about assumed doctrinal errors of Christ’s Church shows that you have no idea whatsoever of the meaning of what is dogma and what is doctrine, and what is in the domain of governance. You have no idea of the difference between impeccability and infallibility, and therefore no idea of the history of the Catholic Church.
   For such lack of knowledge a one volume panorama, TRUMPH, The power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, by convert H.W. Crocker III, Proma Publishing, Forum, 2001, can be most helpful.
   For a detailed history, the prodigious work of Dr Warren Carroll, now up to five volumes with two more to come, A History of Christendom, is well worthwhile for the serious student or researcher, with an extensive bibliography. (Chistendom Publications, 1985 onwards).
2. The chaos over annulments among some priests illustrates graphically the dissent so prevalent after Vatican II and exemplified by the dissent over contraception to which you have fallen prey.
3. Glaring examples in your war against Christ are:

a) To deny Christ who gave us His divine assurance that His Peter and successors could not teach error in faith and morals – the Keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mt 16:18).

b) To deny Christ who gave His Peter and his successors His authority to bind and loose (Mt 16:19).

c) To deny Christ who proclaimed that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church headed by His popes (Mt 16:18)

d) To deny Christ through His Pope who confirmed Vatican II:
Vatican II: “By this appreciation, of the faith, aroused and sustained by the spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).” Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 12, Lumen Gentium, Vatican II, my emphasis]

As Fr John A Hardon, S.J., writes: The universitas fidelium (the university of the faithful) referred to in LG art 12 [Fr John A Hardon, *The Catholic Catechism

, Doubleday, 1975, p 225-227] constitutes those who are agreed on the truth - what God has revealed, under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. This is what gives them universality - spiritual unity. “the truth interiorly possessed gives them consensus, and not the other way around, as though their consensus on some doctrine made it true.” (Fr Hardon). Those dissenting are outside of the sensus fidelium.

Those who deny Christ through disobedience to Christ’s Magisterium are not in communion with the People of God who do obey by assent to the doctrines and dogmas.

We would welcome you to rejoin us.

HOOAH!!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

lol @ vatican roulette. Anyway, my child conceived despite my wife being on the pill is right in front of me…he is proof that if God wants you to have a child some man made birth control isn’t going to stop Him.

God gave us all a gift. It is called free will. You have the choice to do right or to sin. It’s up to you. Your child was most likely conceived because the pill didn’t work the way it is supposed to. God certainly can make ABC ineffective but to go against the Church and use the pill is your and your wife’s decision as per your free will. Using ABC and then saying that if your wife had a child anyway is proof that God is going to give you a child if He wants to is somewhat strange thinking IMHO.

 

[guanophore]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Apparently the majority of Catholics also disagree with this manmade teaching of the Catholic Church, since the majority of them do practice ABC, not NFP. I don’t have a source to quote, but the figures I’ve read indicate that between 80% and 95% of Catholics do practice ABC. Would you conclude that those Catholics who practice ABC aren’t really Catholic? Would you suggest that they leave the Catholic Church?

I would stipulate that this is the case. They are Catholics that have fallen into moral sin. They are rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff.

Truth is not determined by majority vote, but by the revelation of God.

By the way, why do you consider the bible to be insufficient?

Materially, but not formally. This subject is a good case in point because there are things that confront us today that were unknown to the Apostles, such as artificial birth control. It is necessary to have the guidance of the Church in such matters, which is why Jesus established and authorized it.

 

[Abu]

guanophore
Right; the Bible is not sufficient as Christ wrote nothing and gave us His Church with His authority, and She declared which writings form the Word of God, no more no less.

For Priscilla Ann to describe the doctrine and dogma of Christ’s Church as “man-made” is to reject Christ, as the Sacred Scriptures show Him clearly giving His authority to His Church and the primacy to His first Pope, St Peter.

The problem is that we are free to do good and avoid evil, and Jesus has provided us with the sureness of infallibility through His Church in and through Peter and His successors.

It is precisely because of this lack of infallibility that there is no sure norm outside of the Catholic Church on many grave issues such as abortion, contraception, euthanasia, remarriage, capital punishment, IVF, cloning, marriage only between the opposite sex, and many other modern problems - this fact results in uncertainty and confusion.

It is precisely because of infallibility, that the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *can be issued by an Apostolic Constitution as a sure guide to faith and morals for the whole Church, and for all mankind.

 

[roveau]

I’ve made it through this thread, yay!

I haven’t been given any logical answers to the OP’s question except that the Pope says so… which I already knew. I was really looking forward to some good reasoning… there was some… but not much…

But the bottom line is that the Pope has determined this and so we should stick to it until such time there is pronounced a change - the commission to St Peter says, “whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven…”. I do believe that it will be ‘loosed’ one day.

For those that were so vehemently anti-contraceptive I would love to know how many of them are actually married and have practiced what they preached. I am not married so have not had to face this question personally.

 

[jilly4ski]

I’ve made it through this thread, yay!

I haven’t been given any logical answers to the OP’s question except that the Pope says so… which I already knew. I was really looking forward to some good reasoning… there was some… but not much…

But the bottom line is that the Pope has determined this and so we should stick to it until such time there is pronounced a change - the commission to St Peter says, “whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven…”. I do believe that it will be ‘loosed’ one day.

For those that were so vehemently anti-contraceptive I would love to know how many of them are actually married and have practiced what they preached. I am not married so have not had to face this question personally.

Actually quite a few of us on this thread are married. I myself
am married and did not use the “because the pope said so” argument. There is instead a natural law argument to be made. And no a natural law argument does not say that because ABC is not “natural” you can’t use it. Rather it looks at the natural purpose of sex and marriage, once we determine what that is, then we can look at what is permissible.

And no the teaching on ABC cannot change, because it is a teaching on morals and is infallible.

 

[Alindawyl]

For those that were so vehemently anti-contraceptive I would love to know how many of them are actually married and have practiced what they preached. I am not married so have not had to face this question personally.

My wife and I are “vehemently anti-contraceptive”. When we first got married we weren’t, much to our shame. Now we use NFP and are currently trying to get pregnant, something we couldn’t have imagined four years ago.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but what the Church says about the selfishness of the contraceptive mentality was spot on for us. We were not open to life and viewed children as an inconvenience. I often thought of my wife as a vehicle for my pleasure first and hers second. And of course the Pill does act as an abortifacient. The heartache I went through last year after finding that out, after discovering that it’s possible we’ve killed one or more of our own children because we just HAD to disobey the Church and do things our own way, isn’t something I’d wish on anyone.

 

[bingbang]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but what the Church says about the selfishness of the contraceptive mentality was spot on for us. We were not open to life and viewed children as an inconvenience. .

Anyone using NFP to prevent pregnancy likely feels the same way.

 

[murphjos]

Anyone using NFP to prevent pregnancy likely feels the same way.

Not true. MY wife and I are using to NFP to delay conceiving even though we would welcome more children with open hearts. We have no trouble conceiving even while my wife is nursing. If we did not have NFP to help with spacing our youngest would be cut off from mothers milk by the pregnancy and my wife would not have time to recover from the last pregnancy and birth.

How is that you presume know what motivates couples using NFP?