C
commenter
Guest
Yes, individual non Catholics can receive guidance from the Holy Spirit. Communities of non Catholics can also receive guidance.
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C
ComplineSanFran
Guest
I wish this conversation about 33k denominations would go away. There are so many storefront churches in the US (and other places) that are independent and yet are counted as a ‘denomination’. There are break-aways from break-aways. But if you look at a chart of branches of the Christian Church, you will see the main groupings of Eastern Churches, the Western Churches, Anglicans, Protestants, and non-Protestants like LDS. It’s the Church. It’s who we are.
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Peter_J
Guest
More to the point, I think that if I spent time on an Evangelical forum I’d find plenty of talk about “Catholics not converting because they’re attached to their sins” or whatever (one reason I don’t participate on Evangelical forums) but that doesn’t mean that all Evangelicals think that way.
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Peter_J
Guest
Well thank you, maybe I will.
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Church_Militant
Guest
You need to learn to couch your opinion in a way that is not needlessly polemical and if you cannot do that then you need to remain silent.
As for the point you tried to make…it can be scripturally summed up by simply citing 1st Corinthians 14:33] “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,”
I simply point out that there are so many differing “gospels messages” that (in the context of the New Testament) it creates that very confusion that cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit, but that of man.
Examine the Catholic faith objectively with an authentic source such as the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and then, when you have the facts, decide for yourself.
Very poorly chosen remark not indicative of the best of Catholic faith sharing,
I’m sorry but I never really understood what you were trying to accomplish in your posts here.
You seem to have come on board with some kind of attitude from the outset. I would welcome further dialog with you if you will set aside the polemics and get into whatever substantive problems you have with authentic and authoritative Catholic teachings. These things can be resolved with information offered in charity and I can do that.
If you want to talk about truth, scripture, and such then we can go from there, but if you want to gripe about how some individuals have not met your personal standards of faith sharing (which, at this point, I don’t even think I have understood because you have been so aggressively argumentative in your own posts.) then no dialog is likely to bear good fruit.
Everyone can do better…
Z
z_0101
Guest
OK - trying to stay on topic ,
Before I converted.
Organized religion in general turned me “off”
Many Evangelicals seemed either too full of themselves or just simply intolerant of others.
Other branches suffered from similar deficiencies.
The Catholic faith, to be honest, I just lumped into the over all group.
What I saw, were the people… not the Church… not The Body of Christ… just the humanity, or inhumanity, of the people.
What changed for me, why did the Catholic Church become something important to me, five priests, all with science backgrounds hit me with one logical question:
“As a Scientist, how can you condemn something that you have no real understanding of?”
IMHO: Many within the Protestant faiths suffer from the same thing I did, they see only the people - the loudest, the most obnoxious of us and they do not see the Church as a whole - just the dozen or so people they’ve seen, just the news media sound-byte… and as Bishop Fulton Sheen is so often quoted "(…)“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. (…)” unfortunately, many of our Evangelical-Protestant Brothers and Sisters don’t have those five priests challenging them to really learn about the Catholic faith. Without that challenge, many are content to accept what they think they know - just as I did at one point in time.
What you are not really clarifying is which branch of Protestantism you are affiliated with… some such at the Lutherans, Methods, Anglicans, or other “High Church” protestant faiths have a much closer understanding of the Catholic faith than do some of the Baptist or other branches of the Anabaptist.
Prot·es·tant /ˈprädəstənt/
noun
noun: Protestant; plural noun: Protestants
Happy to know you want “salt” but which one…
Happy to know you are a Protestant… gives me a frame of reference; however, are you more of the Mindset of Luther or do you travel down the paths of Calvin and Zwingli or perhaps the JW and the CLS etc…
Maybe it doesn’t really matter which particular church you are affiliated with?
What does matter, is that you haven’t told us specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, it is about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive.
Ignore the people, we are all flawed, even the Apostles were flawed (really a Murder, a tax collector, etc)… to say all Catholics are the same and that’s why one doesn’t find the Catholic Church appealing is the easy way out… for example, you haven’t meet me in person, I take the Catholic Faith very seriously, indeed, I have been looking into the Deaconate program - talk about accepting JC as your personal Lord and Savior and certainly not something that every Catholic would consider! TBH - If I had known 30+ years ago what I know today about the Catholic faith, I would have become a Priest instead of a Chemist. I don’t know why God didn’t call me then to the priesthood instead of to marriage; however, now, I have a Wife which is a Blessing, and four beautiful, and often recalcitrant, children.
So, specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, is it about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive?
,Before I converted.
Organized religion in general turned me “off”
Many Evangelicals seemed either too full of themselves or just simply intolerant of others.
Other branches suffered from similar deficiencies.
The Catholic faith, to be honest, I just lumped into the over all group.
What I saw, were the people… not the Church… not The Body of Christ… just the humanity, or inhumanity, of the people.
What changed for me, why did the Catholic Church become something important to me, five priests, all with science backgrounds hit me with one logical question:
“As a Scientist, how can you condemn something that you have no real understanding of?”
IMHO: Many within the Protestant faiths suffer from the same thing I did, they see only the people - the loudest, the most obnoxious of us and they do not see the Church as a whole - just the dozen or so people they’ve seen, just the news media sound-byte… and as Bishop Fulton Sheen is so often quoted "(…)“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. (…)” unfortunately, many of our Evangelical-Protestant Brothers and Sisters don’t have those five priests challenging them to really learn about the Catholic faith. Without that challenge, many are content to accept what they think they know - just as I did at one point in time.
- the article patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-catholicism-is-so-unattractive-to-evangelicals/ hits the nail on the head.
GL you’ve asserted this several times… we understand.
What you are not really clarifying is which branch of Protestantism you are affiliated with… some such at the Lutherans, Methods, Anglicans, or other “High Church” protestant faiths have a much closer understanding of the Catholic faith than do some of the Baptist or other branches of the Anabaptist.
Prot·es·tant /ˈprädəstənt/
noun
noun: Protestant; plural noun: Protestants
- a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.
adjective
adjective: Protestant - of, relating to, or belonging to any of the Protestant churches.
Happy to know you want “salt” but which one…
Happy to know you are a Protestant… gives me a frame of reference; however, are you more of the Mindset of Luther or do you travel down the paths of Calvin and Zwingli or perhaps the JW and the CLS etc…
Maybe it doesn’t really matter which particular church you are affiliated with?
What does matter, is that you haven’t told us specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, it is about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive.
Ignore the people, we are all flawed, even the Apostles were flawed (really a Murder, a tax collector, etc)… to say all Catholics are the same and that’s why one doesn’t find the Catholic Church appealing is the easy way out… for example, you haven’t meet me in person, I take the Catholic Faith very seriously, indeed, I have been looking into the Deaconate program - talk about accepting JC as your personal Lord and Savior and certainly not something that every Catholic would consider! TBH - If I had known 30+ years ago what I know today about the Catholic faith, I would have become a Priest instead of a Chemist. I don’t know why God didn’t call me then to the priesthood instead of to marriage; however, now, I have a Wife which is a Blessing, and four beautiful, and often recalcitrant, children.
So, specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, is it about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Not necessarily true because there are indeed a wide variety of n-C faith communities that are not even in communion with each other in the sense of consistent and unified doctrines and certainly not in Biblical interpretations. It’s just a fact. The number cited may not be accurate, but the truth is that if there are two then that is one too many. According to ***Ephesians 4:[4] There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
As I pointed out above…that confusion is not from the Holy Spirit according to the New Testament.
OK - trying to stay on topic
Before I converted.
Organized religion in general turned me “off”
Many Evangelicals seemed either too full of themselves or just simply intolerant of others.
Other branches suffered from similar deficiencies.
The Catholic faith, to be honest, I just lumped into the over all group.
What I saw, were the people… not the Church… not The Body of Christ… just the humanity, or inhumanity, of the people.
What changed for me, why did the Catholic Church become something important to me, five priests, all with science backgrounds hit me with one logical question:
“As a Scientist, how can you condemn something that you have no real understanding of?”
IMHO: Many within the Protestant faiths suffer from the same thing I did, they see only the people - the loudest, the most obnoxious of us and they do not see the Church as a whole - just the dozen or so people they’ve seen, just the news media sound-byte… and as Bishop Fulton Sheen is so often quoted "(…)“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. (…)” unfortunately, many of our Evangelical-Protestant Brothers and Sisters don’t have those five priests challenging them to really learn about the Catholic faith. Without that challenge, many are content to accept what they think they know - just as I did at one point in time.
On a side note:
- the article patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-catholicism-is-so-unattractive-to-evangelicals/ hits the nail on the head.
GL you’ve asserted this several times… we understand.
What you are not really clarifying is which branch of Protestantism you are affiliated with… some such at the Lutherans, Methods, Anglicans, or other “High Church” protestant faiths have a much closer understanding of the Catholic faith than do some of the Baptist or other branches of the Anabaptist.
Prot·es·tant /ˈprädəstənt/
noun
noun: Protestant; plural noun: Protestants
Maybe it doesn’t really matter which particular church you are affiliated with?
- a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.
adjective
adjective: Protestant- of, relating to, or belonging to any of the Protestant churches.You are yelling, “Salt” to a Chemist, which could be KCl, NaCL, Na2SO4, etc…
Happy to know you want “salt” but which one…
Happy to know you are a Protestant… gives me a frame of reference; however, are you more of the Mindset of Luther or do you travel down the paths of Calvin and Zwingli or perhaps the JW and the CLS etc…
What does matter, is that you haven’t told us specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, it is about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive.
Ignore the people, we are all flawed, even the Apostles were flawed (really a Murder, a tax collector, etc)… to say all Catholics are the same and that’s why one doesn’t find the Catholic Church appealing is the easy way out… for example, you haven’t meet me in person, I take the Catholic Faith very seriously, indeed, I have been looking into the Deaconate program - talk about accepting JC as your personal Lord and Savior and certainly not something that every Catholic would consider! TBH - If I had known 30+ years ago what I know today about the Catholic faith, I would have become a Priest instead of a Chemist. I don’t know why God didn’t call me then to the priesthood instead of to marriage; however, now, I have a Wife which is a Blessing, and four beautiful, and often recalcitrant, children.
So, specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, is it about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive?
T
TC3033
Guest
There is a line between defending your failth, and flat out insulting other people’s…right?I hope that you change your mind, and decide to post again on the thread. Please don’t take it personally when Catholics defend their faith as being the One True Faith. We can’t really help it, and we aren’t meaning to insult anyone at all. You aren’t required to accept what we believe, of course, but some of us are gonna try to cite the views of the Church on these threads.
God bless!
T
TC3033
Guest
I think that I outlined my point of view and my experiences pretty well.OK - trying to stay on topic
Before I converted.
Organized religion in general turned me “off”
Many Evangelicals seemed either too full of themselves or just simply intolerant of others.
Other branches suffered from similar deficiencies.
The Catholic faith, to be honest, I just lumped into the over all group.
What I saw, were the people… not the Church… not The Body of Christ… just the humanity, or inhumanity, of the people.
What changed for me, why did the Catholic Church become something important to me, five priests, all with science backgrounds hit me with one logical question:
“As a Scientist, how can you condemn something that you have no real understanding of?”
IMHO: Many within the Protestant faiths suffer from the same thing I did, they see only the people - the loudest, the most obnoxious of us and they do not see the Church as a whole - just the dozen or so people they’ve seen, just the news media sound-byte… and as Bishop Fulton Sheen is so often quoted "(…)“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. (…)” unfortunately, many of our Evangelical-Protestant Brothers and Sisters don’t have those five priests challenging them to really learn about the Catholic faith. Without that challenge, many are content to accept what they think they know - just as I did at one point in time.
On a side note:
- the article patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-catholicism-is-so-unattractive-to-evangelicals/ hits the nail on the head.
GL you’ve asserted this several times… we understand.
What you are not really clarifying is which branch of Protestantism you are affiliated with… some such at the Lutherans, Methods, Anglicans, or other “High Church” protestant faiths have a much closer understanding of the Catholic faith than do some of the Baptist or other branches of the Anabaptist.
Prot·es·tant /ˈprädəstənt/
noun
noun: Protestant; plural noun: Protestants
You are yelling, “Salt” to a Chemist, which could be KCl, NaCL, Na2SO4, etc…
- a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.
adjective
adjective: Protestant- of, relating to, or belonging to any of the Protestant churches.
Happy to know you want “salt” but which one…
Happy to know you are a Protestant… gives me a frame of reference; however, are you more of the Mindset of Luther or do you travel down the paths of Calvin and Zwingli or perhaps the JW and the CLS etc…
Maybe it doesn’t really matter which particular church you are affiliated with?
What does matter, is that you haven’t told us specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, it is about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive.
Ignore the people, we are all flawed, even the Apostles were flawed (really a Murder, a tax collector, etc)… to say all Catholics are the same and that’s why one doesn’t find the Catholic Church appealing is the easy way out… for example, you haven’t meet me in person, I take the Catholic Faith very seriously, indeed, I have been looking into the Deaconate program - talk about accepting JC as your personal Lord and Savior and certainly not something that every Catholic would consider! TBH - If I had known 30+ years ago what I know today about the Catholic faith, I would have become a Priest instead of a Chemist. I don’t know why God didn’t call me then to the priesthood instead of to marriage; however, now, I have a Wife which is a Blessing, and four beautiful, and often recalcitrant, children.
So, specifically why or what, as an Evangelical-Protestant, is it about the Catholic faith that is so Unattractive?
I’ve though about converting, but have a fundamental issue growing up non-denominational, where I grew up in a church where all are welcome to come. Open arms, if you will.
Versus my personal experiences where I’ve been discouraged to be part of any parish events, been disregarded by fathers once they’ve found out I’m not Catholic, and get my name asterisked on everything so all know I’m not Catholic…to mention a few.
For ME, that is the one fundamental issue that I struggle with due to my disagreement with it and is one thing that I don’t think should be part of faith.
D
Denise1957
Guest
Yes, this can be the case at times, but I haven’t seen it yet on this thread (I haven’t read the whole thread, though). I think that non-Catholics perhaps aren’t used to Catholics who strongly defend the Catholic position on certain issues. When I was a Protestant, I quite admired that there were Catholics who felt strongly about their faith.
M
multitude
Guest
When I was in Evangelical circles years ago, I’ve never met Catholics who ever defended their faith that hard. So it’s probably a surprise to a few Evangelicals when they see Catholics “hitting back”.
The only reason I ever found my way back to the Church was mainly because I couldn’t agree with the Evangelical “doctrines” anymore, particularly on OSAS and sola fide; at some point and after a few more interactions with Evangelicals, those teachings felt completely and utterly abhorrent.
My take is, from my experiences, Catholicism looks completely unattractive to Evangelicals because it looks like too much work. But that would beg the question as to whose will you want to do, your’s or God’s.
The only reason I ever found my way back to the Church was mainly because I couldn’t agree with the Evangelical “doctrines” anymore, particularly on OSAS and sola fide; at some point and after a few more interactions with Evangelicals, those teachings felt completely and utterly abhorrent.
My take is, from my experiences, Catholicism looks completely unattractive to Evangelicals because it looks like too much work. But that would beg the question as to whose will you want to do, your’s or God’s.
T
TC3033
Guest
I find comparing someone’s faith to “playing church” quite insulting, but I guess that’s me.
T
TC3033
Guest
I’d disagree from my upbringing and experiences…
Still for me I’d rather be part of a faith that wants to welcome people in vs (what appears to me) keep others who are “different” out.
T
theropod
Guest
Too much work? The average Catholic in the pew does no more “work” than anyone else. Many Catholics find the lack of emphasis on personal study and evangelism easier than what evangelicals are expected to do.
How much work someone puts into their faith is more about the individual person than their tradition. This is obvious.
Many evangelicals move to mainline denominations or Catholicism because they are exhausted, and they feel less is expected of them in their new church.
How much work someone puts into their faith is more about the individual person than their tradition. This is obvious.
Many evangelicals move to mainline denominations or Catholicism because they are exhausted, and they feel less is expected of them in their new church.
D
Denise1957
Guest
While it may be true that the average Catholic in the pew does no more work than anyone else, this doesn’t mean that the Church expects this sort of laxity from them, according to Church teaching. There has been a certain disconnect of Catholics from actual Catholic teaching in the last 40 or more years. For instance, artificial contraception is still against Church teaching, and it’s still a mortal sin for couples to use it. It’s also a mortal sin to skip Mass on a Sunday without a good or valid reason. It’s a mortal sin to view porn, or to co-habitate, but many parishes don’t teach these issues anymore. But that doesn’t mean that the Church doesn’t still teach them. We are supposed to grow in holiness. The best way to do that is to try to stay in a state of grace, and make use of the confessional, in order to work on our chief faults, which isn’t a fun or easy thing to do.
M
multitude
Guest
I was talking about the actual religion and the actual Church teachings with regards to work, not about the average Catholic. That’s why I specifically said that I’ve never met Catholics in real life who have ever defended their faiths with much vigour when I was an Evangelical.
T
theropod
Guest
But perception is reality. At least in this case. The point remains, evangelicals aren’t not converting to Catholicism because they see it as too much work.
D
Denise1957
Guest
Exactly. Do we really want to do God’s will, or just our own will? An excellent question.
T
TC3033
Guest
Nope, that’s not true, sorry.
I think I laid out, a handful of times, within this thread why I am not interested. Pretty sure I didn’t bring up “too much work”.
That is one thing that I definitely don’t see.
M
Michael68
Guest
I see other “churches” playin church. They have no valid consecration, heck they don’t believe in the Eucharist
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