Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[TC3033]

I understand but I think you are laboring under some misconceptions. Catholics are not “cooler” than others because they are part of Catholicism. The Catholic liturgies are open to anyone to attend, even non-Christians. But they are intended primarily for Catholics, just as any Protestant service is primarily for them. We restrict certain sacraments for the protection of the sacrament (against abuses), and so those receiving them can be reasonably assumed to be disposed for them. If one doesn’t believe in the Church’s sacraments as the Church teaches, why would one want to participate in it? It’s like wanting to celebrate someone else’s birthday or marry another person’s spouse. Whatever is exclusive is for good reason not be merely to be exclusive or unfriendly.

That was just a saying, I didn’t mean “cool kids” in that sense. We’re getting a little stuck on Mass where what I’m coming from is part of the Church in general.

My wife and two kids are Catholic. In the small town where we live, I don’t have a Church to go to. The closest is probably the ELCA. I go to Mass w/ them instead. As my family grows and the kids start moving through classes and they become more active in the Church it’s tough for me when it feels/seems like the Church welcome them in with open arms, but give me the Heisman like “no, you’re good out there”, when all I’m looking for is to be treated as part of the congregation, an equal if you will.

My neighbor and I both had the same experiences with the past Father as he was there when both of our families were looking to join. Our wives are Catholic, and once he found out that neither of us were, we basically weren’t part of the conversation anymore. He wanted nothing to do with us. We actually didn’t join that Parrish at first because of him and his thoughts about non-Catholics.

 

[TC3033]

You’re welcome, and welcome back. I’m guessing a number of us thought of you the other day … I forget which day it was, but someone posted about going to a Baptist church with his wife, where the minister told the husband that he was not welcome to come in because he was Catholic.

Really? That’s terrible…

I’ve been lurking around, reading a lot, and testing the waters in the parenting section.

I’m surprised I didn’t see that.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t want to re-hash any past posts.

Yeah. Personally, I have a pretty good idea where you’re coming from; but you may want to quote or link-to some of your earlier posts about this, for anyone who is interested.

 

[Della]

That was just a saying, I didn’t mean “cool kids” in that sense. We’re getting a little stuck on Mass where what I’m coming from is part of the Church in general.

My wife and two kids are Catholic. In the small town where we live, I don’t have a Church to go to. The closest is probably the ELCA. I go to Mass w/ them instead. As my family grows and the kids start moving through classes and they become more active in the Church it’s tough for me when it feels/seems like the Church welcome them in with open arms, but give me the Heisman like “no, you’re good out there”, when all I’m looking for is to be treated as part of the congregation, an equal if you will.

My neighbor and I both had the same experiences with the past Father as he was there when both of our families were looking to join. Our wives are Catholic, and once he found out that neither of us were, we basically weren’t part of the conversation anymore. He wanted nothing to do with us. We actually didn’t join that Parrish at first because of him and his thoughts about non-Catholics.

I can’t say why Father treated you that way. I know none of the priests in my area would have done that. Indeed, the priest that founded our parish was greatly loved by everyone, and was good friends with the Protestant pastors in our neck of the woods. Some priests and even Protestant pastors can be like that. Sadly, as human beings they make mistakes or do things out of motives they think are fine, but which are too exclusive.

Since you attend Sunday Mass with your family you are part of the congregation, you’re simply not a part that can receive communion. You are part of the body of Christ by reason of your baptism, you’re merely not in full communion with the Church. Please don’t judge all Catholicism by the actions/attitudes of one or even a few people. Such behavior/attitudes can happen in any congregation of Christians anywhere because we are all sinners. Still, snobbishness has no place in the Church, none at all.

 

[TC3033]

I can’t say why Father treated you that way. I know none of the priests in my area would have done that. Indeed, the priest that founded our parish was greatly loved by everyone, and was good friends with the Protestant pastors in our neck of the woods. Some priests and even Protestant pastors can be like that. Sadly, as human beings they make mistakes or do things out of motives they think are fine, but which are too exclusive.

Since you attend Sunday Mass with your family you are part of the congregation, you’re simply not a part that can receive communion. You are part of the body of Christ by reason of your baptism, you’re merely not in full communion with the Church. Please don’t judge all Catholicism by the actions/attitudes of one or even a few people. Such behavior/attitudes can happen in any congregation of Christians anywhere because we are all sinners. Still, snobbishness has no place in the Church, none at all.

I had kind of a rough introduction into the Church, so I though all of them performed the same practices that I was seeing. It honestly left a pretty sour taste for a pretty long time, but it was all that I knew/my only experience(s)

 

[TC3033]

Yeah. Personally, I have a pretty good idea where you’re coming from; but you may want to quote or link-to some of your earlier posts about this, for anyone who is interested.

I’ll have to go search’n. I’m pretty sure I have one venting wall of text out there that laid out everything that I ran into.

 

[Della]

I had kind of a rough introduction into the Church, so I though all of them performed the same practices that I was seeing. It honestly left a pretty sour taste for a pretty long time, but it was all that I knew/my only experience(s)

I can understand that. I’m sorry that was your first experience of the Church. But it’s not like that, especially not now. I will pray that you can move past that–not so that you’ll become Catholic–that’s between you and God and your family. But so that you will be healed of any residual bitterness–if it exists, and will be able to worship in peace of heart and mind with your loved ones. God bless you and yours.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think the reason there isn’t that kind of thing is that Catholic parishes do not see themselves in the role of evangelizing fellow Christians out of their churches. We see non-Catholic Christians as separated brethren, not lost souls. Also, any Catholic may attend any Catholic parish. How are we to know if they are visiting Catholics or non-Catholics? No one wears a sign saying what they are.

Say they are Catholic, what’s the harm in the extra ‘welcome’?

Like I wrote, most parishes have greeters, mine does, so do the others around us. We treat adults like adults, not lost children. If anyone want to be directed or have a question answered, all he has to do is ask an usher or greeter for help. Our parish also has a manned desk in the foyer, but it’s not there to welcome non-Catholics, per se, but merely as one more help for those who might need it.

Usually when it’s just my wife and I, and grandmas watching the lil ones, we like to arrive a little early and settle into the prayerful space. If it’s a non-Malankara parish or one we’ve never been to, we try to come even more early in case we don’t know the way or there’s like a Extraordinary Form Mass missal we need… I have to say, one parish that stood out to us especially (outside our regular parish) was St. John Cantius. The priests and seminarians there are welcoming, friendly and Traditional. And they do outreach and service.

 

[clem456]

Say they are Catholic, what’s the harm in the extra ‘welcome’?

Exactly.
Just opening the doors of the Church says a lot.
We do that.
Open the door. Say good morning. If a person wants to have a conversation on the Church steps they can do that. Many smile back and go on in to Mass.

Point is, someone acknowledged them as a human being.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That’s why it is not such a good idea.

In our cathedral, insufficient hosts or too many of them, does not arise. You will never have short of them. There are practically hundreds of consecrated hosts placed in the ciborium in the tabernacle. Any left over would be used in the next mass, the turnover being very fast and high.

Even in a smaller chapel, if mixed crowd are anticipated, we would not ask people to pick the unconsecrated wafers to indicate that they will receive Communion because non-Catholics may not know what they are all about. The most, we would do a head count or otherwise it is normally be on estimation. And yes, there may be more communicants than expected, then the celebrant if he has no assistant, would have to fracture the hosts and if there are most hosts, the few last communicants would be given more or if I sit near Father, being the last person, would end up gobbling the rest of the hosts.

But in any case, whatever is the method, if it works in the locality, then why not?

Well…I will happily tell you why it was thus in this situation.

This particular parish had the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a separate chapel of reservation. It was not an issue when the norms permitted an extraordinary minister of holy communion to retrieve and repose the ciborium. But that norm changed.

There is. moreover, a norm which does not allow the celebrant to lose sight of the altar during the celebration of the Eucharist…which, obviously, precludes me leaving the worship space to travel to and from the Blessed Sacrament chapel. It is a valuable norm…especially in this situation where the Blessed Sacrament, just confected, should not be left lying on the altar.

But even if such a norm did not exist, it would create, at best, an awkward situation to have the presider twice – or even once – disappear for extended moments. On Sundays, a deacon or another priest could retrieve and repose the Blessed Sacrament. At weekday Masses, one knew the numbers with relative inflexibility. Plus, I always set aside half of my host as a reserve, which gave me up to three extra communicants and the people attending regularly knew the importance of the established routine.

But funerals and weddings were always impossible to gauge. You could have anywhere from 30% of the congregation to 95% of the congregation coming forward.

Given the repeated emphasis on the value and importance of preferably receiving the Eucharist from elements consecrated at the Mass that one is attending and receiving at, it is not really desirable to have hundreds of hosts in the tabernacle. That said, I always presume that the parish priest has a valid reason for doing something the way that he does.

 

[Della]

Say they are Catholic, what’s the harm in the extra ‘welcome’?

Nothing, but it shouldn’t be imposed is my point.

Usually when it’s just my wife and I, and grandmas watching the lil ones, we like to arrive a little early and settle into the prayerful space. If it’s a non-Malankara parish or one we’ve never been to, we try to come even more early in case we don’t know the way or there’s like a Extraordinary Form Mass missal we need… I have to say, one parish that stood out to us especially (outside our regular parish) was St. John Cantius. The priests and seminarians there are welcoming, friendly and Traditional. And they do outreach and service.

And our parish is the same. There’s nothing wrong with being friendly, but some people seem to think that that’s why the Church exists–for fellowship. There are many Evangelicals who will church hop until they find the one that gives them the “best” fellowship. That’s not why we’re at Mass, but it’s fine to be open and welcoming, I never said it wasn’t.

 

[Brendan_64]

And I am thinking of a lovely church with a Marian side chapel, and the (mostly) older ladies line up to light a candle and say their prayers. When I have observed them, they:

1. genuflect
2. kneel
3. pray
4. genuflect as they conclude their prayers.

This seems to be the standard protocol.

The chapel is no where near the tabernacle.

My understanding is that we double genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament, single genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament present in a closed tabernacle, bow before the altar (if the Blessed Sacrament is not present in a tabernacle there), bow before an empty tabernacle, and bow to statues of saints etc.

But considering the status of Our Lady, her central importance to our Church and our Faith, and her position as Queen of Heaven, I can see how it would be completely appropriate to genuflect in devotion before a statue of Our Lady.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well…I will happily tell you why it was thus in this situation.

This particular parish had the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a separate chapel of reservation. It was not an issue when the norms permitted an extraordinary minister of holy communion to retrieve and repose the ciborium. But that norm changed.

There is. moreover, a norm which does not allow the celebrant to lose sight of the altar during the celebration of the Eucharist…which, obviously, precludes me leaving the worship space to travel to and from the Blessed Sacrament chapel. It is a valuable norm…especially in this situation where the Blessed Sacrament, just confected, should not be left lying on the altar.

But even if such a norm did not exist, it would create, at best, an awkward situation to have the presider twice – or even once – disappear for extended moments. On Sundays, a deacon or another priest could retrieve and repose the Blessed Sacrament. At weekday Masses, one knew the numbers with relative inflexibility. Plus, I always set aside half of my host as a reserve, which gave me up to three extra communicants and the people attending regularly knew the importance of the established routine.

But funerals and weddings were always impossible to gauge. You could have anywhere from 30% of the congregation to 95% of the congregation coming forward.

Given the repeated emphasis on the value and importance of preferably receiving the Eucharist from elements consecrated at the Mass that one is attending and receiving at, it is not really desirable to have hundreds of hosts in the tabernacle. That said, I always presume that the parish priest has a valid reason for doing something the way that he does.

Well…I will happily tell you why it was thus in this situation.

This particular parish had the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a separate chapel of reservation. It was not an issue when the norms permitted an extraordinary minister of holy communion to retrieve and repose the ciborium. But that norm changed.

There is. moreover, a norm which does not allow the celebrant to lose sight of the altar during the celebration of the Eucharist…which, obviously, precludes me leaving the worship space to travel to and from the Blessed Sacrament chapel. It is a valuable norm…especially in this situation where the Blessed Sacrament, just confected, should not be left lying on the altar.

But even if such a norm did not exist, it would create, at best, an awkward situation to have the presider twice – or even once – disappear for extended moments. On Sundays, a deacon or another priest could retrieve and repose the Blessed Sacrament. At weekday Masses, one knew the numbers with relative inflexibility. Plus, I always set aside half of my host as a reserve, which gave me up to three extra communicants and the people attending regularly knew the importance of the established routine.

But funerals and weddings were always impossible to gauge. You could have anywhere from 30% of the congregation to 95% of the congregation coming forward.

Given the repeated emphasis on the value and importance of preferably receiving the Eucharist from elements consecrated at the Mass that one is attending and receiving at, it is not really desirable to have hundreds of hosts in the tabernacle. That said, I always presume that the parish priest has a valid reason for doing something the way that he does.

Aw, thanks.

I understand where you have a separate chapel of reservation and obviously you would not leave the altar.

Our tabernacle is also not in the main chapel but in the weekday chapel. During Sunday mass the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion would retrieve and repose the ciboriums. The EMHCs here are still allowed to do that, the necessity is probably required by logistic.

The consecrated hosts would be carried over to the next mass which would commence immediately. I agree that they are preferably received during the mass itself. This knowledge is a good reminder for us laities. Thanks.

I just love that little girl who would generously set aside the wafers for everybody else.

 

[Peter_J]

Really? That’s terrible…

I’ve been lurking around, reading a lot, and testing the waters in the parenting section.

I’m surprised I didn’t see that.

I happened to see it again just now,

I experienced something along those lines back in the late 80’s. I had never been to a Baptist service and I was curious, so we (my wife was Baptist at the time) went to her childhood church. For some reason my mother-in-law felt it necessary to tell the pastor (who was greeting people at the door) that I was Catholic. The pastor greeted my wife and she went in; the pastor asked if he could have a word with me. He took me aside and told me that because I was Catholic and not a Christan I couldn’t enter. The “punch line” was that it was “bring a friend day”.

 

[St_Pancake]

leekonghian must be pretty observant to see Catholics bowing to statues during mass. On a different note, can’t blame him/her either. If I am non-Catholic and have been fed with certain things that Catholics do, I would be on a watch out for that. And bingo, I saw one!

The fact that leekonghian never came back to find out what and why it happened, perhaps an indication of what she/he been looking for had been found during the foray to a Catholic worship - that Catholics bow to statues.

I remember being a Baptist and going to a Baptism at a Catholic Church and watching for them to worship Mary. I was kind of shocked that other than one time, she wasn’t even mentioned.

 

[Peter_J]

I remember being a Baptist and going to a Baptism at a Catholic Church and watching for them to worship Mary. I was kind of shocked that other than one time, she wasn’t even mentioned.

I remember one time I went to a Lutheran church with my Cub Scout troop because one of the other boys was receiving an award there. At that age I had basically no idea how they were different from us Catholics, except from other boys I’d heard they believed Jesus had a brother – I remember anticipating how that would change the service, like whether prayers with “in Jesus’s name” and the like would be altered to say “… Jesus and his brother so-and-so”.

 

[TC3033]

You’re welcome, and welcome back. I’m guessing a number of us thought of you the other day … I forget which day it was, but someone posted about going to a Baptist church with his wife, where the minister told the husband that he was not welcome to come in because he was Catholic.

I just stumbled across that thread (still reading and trying to compute that).

Crazy and embarrassing situation, not sure why any Church would be like that.

 

[St_Pancake]

I remember one time I went to a Lutheran church with my Cub Scout troop because one of the other boys was receiving an award there. At that age I had basically no idea how they were different from us Catholics, except from other boys I’d heard they believed Jesus had a brother – I remember anticipating how that would change the service, like whether prayers with “in Jesus’s name” and the like would be altered to say “… Jesus and his brother so-and-so”.

It’s amazing how the mind of a child works.

 

[Reuben_J]

I remember being a Baptist and going to a Baptism at a Catholic Church and watching for them to worship Mary. I was kind of shocked that other than one time, she wasn’t even mentioned.

I guess so, the surprise. But it is a kind of being told so to speak that the thing is not what you been taught or informed. More importantly is what one gonna do after that: would it change one’s perception or not?

On the other hand, like the other poster, he/she saw Catholics bowing to statues and thus confirmed what he/she already perceived. He/she could have asked but it was certainly not necessary for him/her.

 

[Reuben_J]

I remember one time I went to a Lutheran church with my Cub Scout troop because one of the other boys was receiving an award there. At that age I had basically no idea how they were different from us Catholics, except from other boys I’d heard they believed Jesus had a brother – I remember anticipating how that would change the service, like whether prayers with “in Jesus’s name” and the like would be altered to say “… Jesus and his brother so-and-so”.

… ‘Jesus and James and Jude and Salome names’ … Kids are at their innovative best.