Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[Birdpreacher]

Its because the environments and people they surround themselves with reinforce their preference.

This is why if you were born thousands of years ago you would probably be killing a ram for Zeus.

 

[Tomyris]

Its because the environments and people they surround themselves with reinforce their preference.

This is why if you were born thousands of years ago you would probably be killing a ram for Zeus.

Numerous people carefully evaluate the facts as they see them and switch positions, whether in politics or religion. People convert even against their own family or culture or background.

I suppose you are an agnostic because " the environments and people [you] surround [yourself] with reinforce [you] preference." Not because you have given it any thought. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Della]

Its because the environments and people they surround themselves with reinforce their preference.

Comfort has much to do with people’s choices, that’s true, but in our mobile/techno society people have far more options than they used to have. The very fact that CAF exists is proof of this. I was, like St. Paul, a person born out of my time in that I became attracted to the Catholic faith long before PCs were in every home, also against everything I’d ever been taught to think about Catholicism. I’m not as much an exception to the rule any more, though.

This is why if you were born thousands of years ago you would probably be killing a ram for Zeus.

Probably, but at the least we would have acknowledged that we believed in divine forces greater than ourselves. C. S. Lewis wrote that he wished people were still offering the entrails of goats instead of turning to hedonism–me first idea, which he would saw leaping ahead in his day and which is rampant now.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

(emphasis added)

I’m strongly tempted to say “No, you didn’t”, but I’ll try not to because I really don’t think that would help the attempts at dialogue between non-Catholics and non-Protestants.

But I’d say that if you really saw Catholics and they were genuflecting to statues, and if ComplineSanFran is your real name, then those Catholics were not well informed about Catholic practices.

(Note that we do genuflect to Christ in the tabernacle, since he is God.)

These are issues where we have to be very careful about what we say – especially in the absence of full information.

It is still permissible, for example, to genuflect before a relic of the true cross. We may genuflect to the image of the cross on Good Friday.

Beyond those matters of rubrical details, we also have to take into account what people may perceive. In places where the tabernacle is integrated into an ad absidem altar or where it is recessed into the wall, the question becomes how the gesture is understood by someone seeing it with no Catholic understanding.

One example…there is a church I am familiar with where the sanctuary was renovated after the Council; the high altar was removed and the altar of sacrifice was located, free standing, in the middle of the sanctuary. The side altars, to Mary and Joseph, are intact. Each had a small tabernacle. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the tabernacle integrated into the side altar of the Blessed Virgin.

There was, of course, the sanctuary lamp indicating the Eucharistic presence. But a non Catholic visitor, whose categories of thought do not include a theology of the reserved sacrament, of tabernacles, or for that matter a Catholic/Orthodox concept of the Eucharist, could not be expected to know that. They would see people who were geneflecting to the Real Presence (which was immediately evident to a Catholic) but likely these visitors would perceive the people as genuflecting to the statue of Mary because that was what was most immediately evident and most prominent.

Similarly, if a tabernacle is recessed into the wall under a Calvary, the non Catholics may have no appreciation of what is being genuflected to and see the gesture as made toward the prominent grouping of statues and not realise the gesture was intended for what they may perceive as an ambry at best or even a wall safe.

 

[Brendan_64]

Referring to the poster who witnessed Catholics bowing to statues, well, probably that was the one - the veneration of the cross. That was done once a year and if that poster witnessed this and said Catholics bowing to statue, he was probably what we call a ‘Good Friday Catholic’. There are Catholics who would only come for this type of service or mass - once or twice a year.

I will bow to a Marian side chapel and make no apology for doing so. I will bow to the Queen of Heaven.

 

[Peter_J]

These are issues where we have to be very careful about what we say – especially in the absence of full information.

It is still permissible, for example, to genuflect before a relic of the true cross. We may genuflect to the image of the cross on Good Friday.

Hmmm, that’s a good point. I was essentially saying what I learned as a child, that genuflecting was something we do just for the Holy Eucharist because it is Christ … But now that I think about it, I definitely have been to Good Friday liturgy in western Catholic churches and seen people genuflecting before the cross.

Goes to show that you can be around something your whole life without drawing out logical implications that may be obvious to a newcomer.

So then, is the distinction in meaning between bowing and genuflecting only a difference of emphasis, or how would you describe it?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I will bow to a Marian side chapel and make no apology for doing so. I will bow to the Queen of Heaven.

And I am thinking of a lovely church with a Marian side chapel, and the (mostly) older ladies line up to light a candle and say their prayers. When I have observed them, they:

1. genuflect
2. kneel
3. pray
4. genuflect as they conclude their prayers.

This seems to be the standard protocol.

The chapel is no where near the tabernacle.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hmmm, that’s a good point. I was essentially saying what I learned as a child, that genuflecting was something we do just for the Holy Eucharist because it is Christ … But now that I think about it, I definitely have been to Good Friday liturgy in western Catholic churches and seen people genuflecting before the cross.

Goes to show that you can be around something your whole life without drawing out logical implications that may be obvious to a newcomer.

So then, is the distinction in meaning between bowing and genuflecting only a difference of emphasis, or how would you describe it?

Same here. Yours is better though. With zero training in theology except for basic catechism, as kids (altar servers those days), we did what our priest did. He genuflected before the altar. Never inquired why he did so but soon we realized it was not something that we could joke about. Our catechism teacher would put his index finger on his lips indicating silence when we started to chat during the mass.

Today I genuflect, not bow. It has become second nature. I am not sure how Evangelicals see this – whether I am a nut or something.

I find those who bow are just too casual so I taught my children to genuflect before being seated or leaving the pew. Following the tradition, my boy is an altar server too. They are better trained these days where instruction is more systematic.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Hmmm, that’s a good point. I was essentially saying what I learned as a child, that genuflecting was something we do just for the Holy Eucharist because it is Christ … But now that I think about it, I definitely have been to Good Friday liturgy in western Catholic churches and seen people genuflecting before the cross.

Goes to show that you can be around something your whole life without drawing out logical implications that may be obvious to a newcomer.

So then, is the distinction in meaning between bowing and genuflecting only a difference of emphasis, or how would you describe it?

All else being equal, genuflection is a more profound sense of homage than bowing. One would, for example, in time past genuflect in taking and kissing the ring of the bishop or the abbot or the abbess whereas one might bow, at most, to a priest or deacon.

There have been, traditionally, certain gestures prescribed in certain circumstances (one thinks back, for example, to the double genuflection before the Blessed Sacrament exposed in the monstrance as opposed to the single genuflection before the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the tabernacle) but other gestures for various other circumstances…such as bowing to an altar where the Blessed Sacrament was not reserved. The respect paid to the Blessed Sacrament, obviously, exceeds that to an altar or an image. An actual relic of the Passion will elicit a greater display of reverence than an image would evoke.

The point of my comment was that it is hard for me to say what someone was reacting to if I am not able to see what they saw and discern if what they are relating is actually as they understood it to be.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

And I am thinking of a lovely church with a Marian side chapel, and the (mostly) older ladies line up to light a candle and say their prayers. When I have observed them, they:

1. genuflect
2. kneel
3. pray
4. genuflect as they conclude their prayers.

This seems to be the standard protocol.

The chapel is no where near the tabernacle.

Well…I do not argue the point. I admit I have seen on occasion people genuflecting to the altar of sacrifice, in entering and exiting their pew, when in reality the tabernacle is in a separate chapel and they are doing a gesture that would only be appropriate when the tabernacle is on a main axis with the altar.

Sometimes people will retain a gesture when, in point of fact, its purpose is no longer appropriate to the present situation. I assume that is the situation you describe.

Sometimes people make honest mistakes. It has happened to me that, on Good Friday or Holy Saturday, I will be moving about the sanctuary to get everything ready and in place – and I will genuflect only to realise half way down or all the way down that, of course, the tabernacle is empty…there is no one to genuflect to…and I am doing it out of habit.

I remember one occasion when I was coming back from a hospital call, the burse with the pyx in it was around my neck, and I was on my way to the tabernacle to deposit the extra consecrated hosts I had remaining in the pyx but I realised the window across the church was open and it was starting to rain so I went straight over to close it before going to the tabernacle. As I crossed the axis of the church I automatically genuflected. And burst out laughing. Since the Blessed Sacrament was around my neck and I was, for all intent and purposes, myself a tabernacle because of the burse and pyx, Jesus was genuflecting to Himself. It was simply force of habit.

Had another priest been in the church and seen it, he would have thought me mad, if he had discerned the burse around my neck.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thank you for this frank and open minded explanation. You have deepened my understanding of what may be happening in the mind of the worshipper which may not be what it appears to someone not familiar with the practice.

Two questions for you:

1. I know Catholics believe Jesus is in heaven and yet they bow to the Tabernacle where I believe the Hosts are stored. Could you explain why? I notice that when people come to a funeral if they want to participate in the Eucharist that day that they place a wafer in the dish provided before they enter the sanctuary but they do not bow to the wafer at the entrance.

As the second person of the Trinity, God the Son assumed a human nature in the Incarnation. As God, He is omniscient and omnipresent. The sacred humanity that was assumed however is substantially present in Heaven and in the Blessed Sacrament. Catholics therefore worship Jesus in His Eucharistic presence.

Having the unconsecrated wafers available before a funeral serves a very practical purpose. It allows the priest to consecrate the amount needed for Communion without consecrating too much or too little since one cannot discern by the congregation’s size how many will be approaching for Communion. Since before the consecration they are merely bread, one does not honor them in any way.

Of course, this method depends upon the congregation cooperating and actually placing an unconsecrated wafer in the ciborium/communion dish, if they intend to approach to receive Communion. It has happened to me that either persons will forget and one begins to fracture hosts if it becomes evident that there are more communicants than hosts or, memorably, a young child whose parents are distracted will decide to help by adding a nice large quantity. Of course, this is a discovery I make at the end of Communion as I have an additional 25 consecrated hosts and no more communicants.

1. I am a non-catholic and yet I often am asked to join them to help the men’s voices in the choir for funerals (smaller community so men committed to jobs may not be able to be there)
   Since I love my Catholic neighbors and love singing I am pleased to do this…As a non-Catholic should I be bowing when I walk past the Tabernacle and or Altar? I don’t feel comfortable to do it because it is foreign to me and I don’t want to be a hypocrite yet I don’t want to be seen as disrespectful.

It is wonderful of you to participate in the choirs, especially given that your voice may make a very crucial difference in being able to perform a piece, at least as it is meant to be done. As far as how you should interact with the tabernacle, altar, etc…it is not infrequent in my circumstance that I would have people come to a liturgy or into the church who were either not Catholic or no longer practicing the faith…whether they were funeral directors or wedding photographers/videographers or florists or musical talent engaged to sing or provide a strings interlude or what have you. My request as a priest was to be conscious that it was a sacred space that required a respectfulness but that I did not expect them to conform to expressions of Catholic piety regarding bowing, genuflecting and so forth. I hope this rule of thumb is useful for you.

 

[Reuben_J]

All else being equal, genuflection is a more profound sense of homage than bowing. One would, for example, in time past genuflect in taking and kissing the ring of the bishop or the abbot or the abbess whereas one might bow, at most, to a priest or deacon.

We are certainly in an era where casual is often the rule. I would make a slight bow when kissing a bishop’s ring, usually bishops from other dioceses or foreign ones. My Archie would have none of it but if it is in public I may do it and make a fool of myself (in his eyes). It is dictated much by posture as in doing so his hand would be below our head level.

I would love though to follow this culture of kneeling when kissing the bishop’s ring. It is so respectful and so right.

 

[Reuben_J]

I will bow to a Marian side chapel and make no apology for doing so. I will bow to the Queen of Heaven.

Sorry if I seemed to imply of making fun of those who do this.

I was often the receiving end of my wife’s murderous glare when I would just casually pass by it. She would spend a few moments of prayers after mass in front of the Marian side chapel (we have kneelers there) and sometimes I would make a conscious attempt to pass her by to indicate that I was going out and would be waiting in the car. I have known better nowadays not to do that again.

 

[Reuben_J]

As the second person of the Trinity, God the Son assumed a human nature in the Incarnation. As God, He is omniscient and omnipresent. The sacred humanity that was assumed however is substantially present in Heaven and in the Blessed Sacrament. Catholics therefore worship Jesus in His Eucharistic presence.

Having the unconsecrated wafers available before a funeral serves a very practical purpose. It allows the priest to consecrate the amount needed for Communion without consecrating too much or too little since one cannot discern by the congregation’s size how many will be approaching for Communion. Since before the consecration they are merely bread, one does not honor them in any way.

Of course, this method depends upon the congregation cooperating and actually placing an unconsecrated wafer in the ciborium/communion dish, if they intend to approach to receive Communion. It has happened to me that either persons will forget and one begins to fracture hosts if it becomes evident that there are more communicants than hosts or, memorably, a young child whose parents are distracted will decide to help by adding a nice large quantity. Of course, this is a discovery I make at the end of Communion as I have an additional 25 consecrated hosts and no more communicants.

That’s why it is not such a good idea.

In our cathedral, insufficient hosts or too many of them, does not arise. You will never have short of them. There are practically hundreds of consecrated hosts placed in the ciborium in the tabernacle. Any left over would be used in the next mass, the turnover being very fast and high.

Even in a smaller chapel, if mixed crowd are anticipated, we would not ask people to pick the unconsecrated wafers to indicate that they will receive Communion because non-Catholics may not know what they are all about. The most, we would do a head count or otherwise it is normally be on estimation. And yes, there may be more communicants than expected, then the celebrant if he has no assistant, would have to fracture the hosts and if there are most hosts, the few last communicants would be given more or if I sit near Father, being the last person, would end up gobbling the rest of the hosts.

But in any case, whatever is the method, if it works in the locality, then why not?

 

[Tomyris]

Sorry if I seemed to imply of making fun of those who do this.

I was often the receiving end of my wife’s murderous glare when I would just casually pass by it. She would spend a few moments of prayers after mass in front of the Marian side chapel (we have kneelers there) and sometimes I would make a conscious attempt to pass her by to indicate that I was going out and would be waiting in the car. I have known better nowadays not to do that again.

Murderous glare during prayer? See thread title.

 

[Della]

Murderous glare during prayer? See thread title.

It seems to me that such looks are universal, no matter what one believes/practices. It’s human reaction, not a particularly Catholic or Protestant one. Besides, I rather think it was mere hyperbole to make a point–something even Jesus employed from time to time.

 

[JustaServant]

Never ceases to amaze me how both Catholics and Protestants worry incessantly about what other people are doing in church.
When you are in a church, it is YOU and God. That’s it. The only attention you should be giving is toward the Lord. It’s a time for inner reflection, prayer, participation in the service/Mass. What other people are doing is quite frankly, none of my business. Our focus is to be on God, and my duty to Him.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Never ceases to amaze me how both Catholics and Protestants worry incessantly about what other people are doing in church.
When you are in a church, it is YOU and God. That’s it. The only attention you should be giving is toward the Lord. It’s a time for inner reflection, prayer, participation in the service/Mass. What other people are doing is quite frankly, none of my business. Our focus is to be on God, and my duty to Him.

Well said.

I have a great affinity and admiration for the EOC - I attended a vespers service last fall at a Church I often pass on my bike - just to see what it was like. We had to stand, they cross themselves backwards (i.e. spot a Catholic in a second, not a great thing), they don’t talk to strangers, megawatt incense is everywhere, you can’t understand the prayers and people kiss icons like crazy the whole time.

How is that? (it is intended to sound petty, ridiculous even)

My point is I went there out of respect and a desire to learn how they worship in their Church, as a means of enhancing my faith and connecting with my fellow Christians. I did authentically pray to God with them, was very thankful when we got to the Lord’s Prayer.

When in Rome…if you’ll pardon the pun…

 

[Peter_J]

When you are in a church, it is YOU and God. That’s it. The only attention you should be giving is toward the Lord. It’s a time for inner reflection, prayer, participation in the service/Mass. What other people are doing is quite frankly, none of my business. Our focus is to be on God, and my duty to Him.

I guess even Evangelicals and Catholic really aren’t completely different.

Still, I think I have to be the wet blanket and point out that that could be misinterpreted as sanctioning an individualist mindset. Just being cautious.

 

[Peter_J]

Murderous glare during prayer? See thread title.

Well, the article was written by a lonely Catholic teenage guy you know.

No, just kidding.