Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[PRmerger]

I am with you on this, PRMerger. We do need to get some sort of clarity on what the “Church” believes with respect to Sacred Scripture and tradition. Is abortion acceptable or not? If you can say yes and no to that question (just the tip of the iceberg I might add) and be in the Church, then the Church is little more than a yoga class - relaxing and positive and above all, self-affirming.

Is there a hell? Is there a heaven? Are we responsible for trying to witness Christ, the truth and eternal life to our brethren or not? What role does accepting and believing the “truth” play in your salvation? Don’t multiple truths get a little problematic on Judgment Day?

And there’s even more:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

Mathematically, with all the different permutations, this permits over 130,000 different belief systems.

Clearly, the Bible Alone cannot be the source of truth–there are way too many ways for people to twist it to their own destruction.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Q: How many denominational groups are there in the United States?
A: This is a very tough question, because it depends on how a denomination is defined. There were 217 denominations listed in the 2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches. But there may well be other groups that function as a denomination but do not regard themselves as such. The single largest religious group in the United States is the Roman Catholic Church, which had 67 million members in 2005. The Southern Baptist Convention, with 16 million members, was the largest of the Protestant denominations. The United Methodist Church was the second-largest Protestant denomination with 8 million members. In third and fourth spots were the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, known as the Mormon church, with 6 million member, and the Church of God in Christ, a predominantly black Pentecostal denomination, with 5.5 million members.

However, since the RCMS 2010 study we now know that the grouping of nondenominational churches, if taken together, would be the second largest Protestant group in the country with over 35,000 independent or nondenominational churches representing more than 12,200,000 adherents. These nondenominational churches are present in every state and in 2,663 out of the total of 3,033 counties in the country, or 88% of the total.
Want to know more? Check out the 2012 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches. The Yearbook costs $50 and may be ordered at: yearbookofchurches.org You can also find a listing of denominations and their websites at hirr.hartsem.edu/denom/homepages.html

hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html

 

[FollowChrist34]

And there’s even more:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

Mathematically, with all the different permutations, this permits over 130,000 different belief systems.

Clearly, the Bible Alone cannot be the source of truth–there are way too many ways for people to twist it to their own destruction.

Yes, putting aside the Magisterium, what about the Word of God? Basic Christian doctrine from the classical Protestants, Luther and Calvin, Wesley for the most part, agrees with Catholic teaching (I am talking the basics here). All of these “denominations” held that abortion is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, divorce is wrong, contraception is wrong…but today?

 

[Peter_J]

Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

I don’t know if this will help anyone, but I’ll share something from a long time that came to mind for some reason this morning. I went to Notre Dame for grad school (this was back when Fr. Edward Malloy was president, thank goodness, not Fr. Jenkins, but anyhow …). One memory that stands out was something a Protestant friend, also a grad student asked me: he noticed how the university was always launching projects to make Muslims, or Buddhists, or Hindus feel more appreciated (e.g. setting up prayer rooms for them or inviting a well-known figure from one of those religions to give a talk about it); whereas if you even heard Protestantism mentioned, it was most likely in the context of a talk about how the Pope is the source of unity and how “schismatics” quickly fall apart, or how Protestants are like the Arians, Nestorians, Gnostics, etc of the early church, or how the way to Jesus is through Mary, or what have you. His question was, why?

 

[rinnie]

I am with you on this, PRMerger. We do need to get some sort of clarity on what the “Church” believes with respect to Sacred Scripture and tradition. Is abortion acceptable or not? If you can say yes and no to that question (just the tip of the iceberg I might add) and be in the Church, then the Church is little more than a yoga class - relaxing and positive and above all, self-affirming.

Is there a hell? Is there a heaven? Are we responsible for trying to witness Christ, the truth and eternal life to our brethren or not? What role does accepting and believing the “truth” play in your salvation? Don’t multiple truths get a little problematic on Judgment Day?

Todays church is whatever you want to believe and whatever makes you happy. Who are they to tell you what is right or wrong. And they are correct also. Where is their authority to teach and tell you what you should or should not do.

But the Roman Catholic Church has authority to teach and preach in the name of God, with God given authority.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

I think a lot of Catholics (rightly or wrongly) are sort of haunted by the fact of Protestantism - threatened by it if you will. If you add all of the denominations together, they come out to I think about half of all Christians - the other half are Roman Catholics. Luther took half of Europe with him went he “left” - got thrown out. It was a major hit. And such a bitter, deadly one for both sides (to this day in many ways).

Kind of hard to let it go. Besides I think Catholics have a legitimate concern about how freewheeling doctrine and truth became in the Christian Church after the break. Luther was horrified by the end of his life - the Protestants split among themselves fast and furious right from the start. American ancestry is all about Protestant pilgrims escaping Anglican persecution. Nothing to do with Catholics. That is more or less a big part of who a majority of Americans are. (I have this blood.)

I do think we need to protect doctrine. Ironically, today both sides are facing the same threats from secular culture - abortion, gay marriage, divorce. Look at us with this upcoming Synod. And you see the same thing with the Protestants - all of these evangelical denominations growing and the mainstream more liberal denominations “dying.” (Why oh why can’t Catholics read this writing on the wall? Cardinal Marx, (name removed by moderator)ut?)

I was watching a Baptist pastor Jeffries is it? on Fox the other night analyzing the Pope’s speech to Congress. He commented that he had more in common with conservative Catholics than liberal Baptists. That is where we are now as far as I am concerned. Truth be told, I have more in common with conservative Baptists than liberal Catholics.

Who knows where this will all end. That is why I like threads like this. I am just trying to find common ground - not argue about the past - and save the truth of the Church as best as we can.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

So which is it? Is the Catholic Church correct and the pope is the vicar of Christ?

Or is he not the vicar of Christ.

There are only 2 options here.

Tomi is a woman, BTW.

She is? sry about that , didn’t mean any offense

 

[Tomyris]

Can you list what these few churches are, plus your source?

And can you make sure that this list includes this church:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20805&d=1411060938

As well as this church:

http://ad009cdnb.archdaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1344975466-storefrontchurch-01-528x427.jpg
.
They are not related. They don’t have any central authority. They can teach what they want. They are independent churches.

So make sure you count them in your list.

And all churches that are independent and answer to no one else save their pastor who started this church.

Thanks.

I’m not sure why you post these pictures. If these were Catholic churches in a run-down area, or “flashy” somehow, and a Protestant posted them to make a point, would you wonder? Are you calling us to defend these churches when we have nothing to do with them?

And a Catholic is in no position to complain about a pastor who answers to no one. Or please explain who can remove a pope from office.

 

[Tomyris]

She is? sry about that , didn’t mean any offense

Not a problem.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not sure why you post these pictures. If these were Catholic churches in a run-down area, or “flashy” somehow, and a Protestant posted them to make a point,
…

If a Protestant did that (I don’t know if a Protestant has done that or not – I wouldn’t be surprised if some one has) I wouldn’t care.

Thank you for helping me illustrate my point.

(Well, granted I would care if the person who posted it was, say, Billy Graham. But in general I wouldn’t care.)

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, indeed. That was kind of what I was trying to get across.

Oh I C. I’m afraid I misses the irony.

I have been critical earlier in the thread of stand-offishness and negativity in some Catholic posts (“Protestants drink coffee during services,” etc.). The same responsibility to charity, however, applies to Protestant posts. And this did come up on the thread like a week ago. How important it is not to be one of those offenders. It can do a lot of harm for your “side”. (I address this advice to myself also, of course.) If you slip up, catch it and try and fix it asap - IMHO.

I mostly agree with what you say there, but I think I need to respond to the highlighted. There are always – always I say – going to be offenders. The harm is largely up to others. Let me make a little analogy …

Suppose that you watch a show on TV and don’t like it. And further suppose that (for whatever reason) it’s not enough to say “Yeesh, I’ll never watch that again” but rather you decide to figure out who to blame for the harm. To me, it’s probably not the star of the show so much as the people who support/supported putting the show on TV.

All the more so if some of those people support it while at the same time considering it a bad show. Which is exactly what I’ve been complaining about for a longtime here: when I see posters (and I complained especially about Lutheran posters doing this, but I suspect it’s true of many others) supporting posts that they themselves regard as bad.

Soapbox, away!

 

[FollowChrist34]

I’m not sure why you post these pictures. If these were Catholic churches in a run-down area, or “flashy” somehow, and a Protestant posted them to make a point, would you wonder? Are you calling us to defend these churches when we have nothing to do with them?

The Catholic Church was rocked by abuse scandals. As a Catholic, I have always been very critical about these failings, speaking inside and outside of the Church - though I have never personally seen a single incident at any parish I attended. I would expect a nonCatholic to do the same - as I would criticize prosperity gospel. Do you expect a moderate Muslim to condemn ISIS?

I don’t really care that much about flashy signs - on that I take your point. The larger question is what responsibility we have to the truth of the Gospel as it is proclaimed or not proclaimed.

And a Catholic is in no position to complain about a pastor who answers to no one. Or please explain who can remove a pope from office.

The Pope is bound by the Magisterium to uphold the established, recognized teachings of the Church. I agree the Pope can error and that many have. But I don’t believe the Catholic Church has ever strayed from teaching true doctrine, the teachings of Jesus Christ. (we’ll see how much longer that holds…)

By what authority does a pastor teach Christ? To whom is he accountable? Let us say that the pastor tells his congregation that material wealth is the result of God’s favor. He does not counsel his congregation to distribute excess wealth to the poor. Let us say the pastor supports gay marriage. He tells his congregation that God recognizes all loving, monogamous relationships equally. He tells his congregation, that, while undesirable, having an abortion is an individual’s choice. Is this God’s word as you understand it? What does Christ think about this now, and on Judgment Day?

Do you believe that there is an established doctrine of Christianity (one truth as revealed in Scripture) or that doctrine is relative?

 

[FollowChrist34]

Oh I C. I’m afraid I misses the irony.

I mostly agree with what you say there, but I think I need to respond to the highlighted. There are always – always I say – going to be offenders. The harm is largely up to others. Let me make a little analogy …

Suppose that you watch a show on TV and don’t like it. And further suppose that (for whatever reason) it’s not enough to say “Yeesh, I’ll never watch that again” but rather you decide to figure out who to blame for the harm. To me, it’s probably not the star of the show so much as the people who support/supported putting the show on TV.

All the more so if some of those people support it while at the same time considering it a bad show. Which is exactly what I’ve been complaining about for a longtime here: when I see posters (and I complained especially about Lutheran posters doing this, but I suspect it’s true of many others) supporting posts that they themselves regard as bad.

Soapbox, away!

Wow, not sure I follow the metaphor about the show or whatever. I’ll take a stab at your meaning though - I think you are saying that one bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch. It is WRONG to take one person’s irresponsible representation of a denomination as indicative of the denomination itself - many many fine folks are very likely of the same denomination who are just not posting on the thread at that time. On this we agree. But I am just saying that, sadly, in reality, it doesn’t always work this way. People DO take very strong impressions from these kinds of exchanges. Let us say you know a German in high school who is a smart wonderful kind person. Don’t you walk away from that thinking Germans are wonderful - and the first one you meet who is a jerk - you think, oh, I guess I better revise my assessment a little bit. Human nature.

 

[cath4alltime]

I am not an Evangelical at all. I can tell you why I left and find Catholicism unattractive because of liberalism which I find quite repugnant. It doesn’t help that the liberals love the Pope. I miss B16 and I anticipate the day when a more Traditional and conservative Pope is selected

 

[St_Redemption]

I think a lot of people might be worried that being a Catholic might be a lot of work…

 

[Peter_J]

I think you are saying that one bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch. It is WRONG to take one person’s irresponsible representation of a denomination as indicative of the denomination itself - many many fine folks are very likely of the same denomination who are just not posting on the thread at that time.

Not what I was saying, but I certainly don’t disagree with it. As a matter of fact, I guess I’ve said that on previous occasions, so alright.

(To be honest, I fear that everyone will ignore my last post anyhow. )

But I am just saying that, sadly, in reality, it doesn’t always work this way. People DO take very strong impressions from these kinds of exchanges. Let us say you know a German in high school who is a smart wonderful kind person. Don’t you walk away from that thinking Germans are wonderful - and the first one you meet who is a jerk - you think, oh, I guess I better revise my assessment a little bit. Human nature.

I probably would, but your scenario is somewhat different from what I’m talking about. TV and internet are very different, in some ways, from IRL.

Suppose that Morton Downey Jr. was German (I’m pretty sure he really wasn’t, of course). If so, does it follow that his show would have a great impact on your opinion of Germans? Probably not, if you’re TV-savvy.

I think about the internet much the same way I think about TV. There are tons – yes, tons – of posts-by-Catholics on the internet that are awful IMO. Do they bother me? Well, yes, but mostly because other people (often well-meaning) give power to them by supporting them (e.g. quoting them, responding to them, and some cases actually praising the authors for being “such good Catholics” or whatever). But if someone has a really awful (let’s say) blog about Catholicism (or Evangelicalism or whatever) that nobody goes to, then he/she has little power, no?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure why you post these pictures.

In order to show that there are churches like these that aren’t being counted.

If these were Catholic churches in a run-down area, or “flashy” somehow, and a Protestant posted them to make a point, would you wonder?

I wouldn’t wonder if I had been following the dialogue and the pictures limned the Protestant’s point.

Are you calling us to defend these churches when we have nothing to do with them?

You are being called to defend the absurd comment that was made that there are “only a few churches”.

Yes, I know that you didn’t make that assertion.

But you either see my response to it and say, “Your pictures do not refute that assertion”

OR

“Yes, it’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that there are only a few churches, for these 2 pictures that PR posted are just 2 out of tens of thousands of different independent churches that aren’t being counted”.

And a Catholic is in no position to complain about a pastor who answers to no one. Or please explain who can remove a pope from office.

Oh, I’m not really complaining about a pastor who answers to no one. It’s the natural consequence of the Protestant paradigm: * Magisterium? I don’t need no magisterium! I get to decide on my own what Christ taught; heck I even get to decide what is the Word of God, and if I decide that the Pauline epistles aren’t theopneustos, that’s my right!"
*

And that ^^, I am complaining about.

 

[Porknpie]

And there’s even more:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

Mathematically, with all the different permutations, this permits over 130,000 different belief systems.

Clearly, the Bible Alone cannot be the source of truth–there are way too many ways for people to twist it to their own destruction.

Add Contraception

Morally permissible or not?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Wow, not sure I follow the metaphor about the show or whatever. I’ll take a stab at your meaning though - I think you are saying that one bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch. It is WRONG to take one person’s irresponsible representation of a denomination as indicative of the denomination itself - many many fine folks are very likely of the same denomination who are just not posting on the thread at that time. On this we agree. But I am just saying that, sadly, in reality, it doesn’t always work this way. People DO take very strong impressions from these kinds of exchanges. Let us say you know a German in high school who is a smart wonderful kind person. Don’t you walk away from that thinking Germans are wonderful - and the first one you meet who is a jerk - you think, oh, I guess I better revise my assessment a little bit. Human nature.

IMO that’s where the importance of reserving judgment comes in. I agree that many of us are, on an emotional level, probably continually revising assessments about groups based on our interactions with individuals from a group: are these folks trustworthy, fair-minded? We can be— negatively—once-bitten, twice shy or—positively— once-embraced, twice open-hearted. But I also try to stand back and realize the fluctuating nature of my assessments, and, seeing the bigger picture, ultimately realize the importance of reserving judgment, and reserving judgment, and reserving judgment again and again, 99 times out of 100.

My best friend in high school and after was a devout, pietistic/interior-conversion-of-the-heart Catholic, though she’s now Evangelical. And, as I stated before, I came to CAF after several years on a smaller, lovely, mostly-Catholic forum where we all genuinely got along well. Tolkien, First Things magazine, Il Divino Michelangelo’s pietistic devotion (I’m a professional sculptor so he’s one of my heroes), Merton, John Michael Talbot, Julian of Norwich, St. Teresa de Avila, St. Juan de La Cruz, St. Francis of Assisi—that’s how I used to think of Catholicism. And then I met you guys…

 

[PRmerger]

Add Contraception

Morally permissible or not?

Egg-zactly.

Another one to add to the list. :sad_yes:

Incidentally, all Christian denominations agreed with the CC on this prior to 1930.

Then, IMHO, it became too much of a “hard saying, who can accept this?” and the doctrine changed to something more palatable.