Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[AbideWithMe]

Chances are one is more likely to come across “recovering” Catholics than devout Catholics.

That’s exactly it in a nutshell.

 

[AbideWithMe]

How do you know Catholics aren’t living their faith?

At some point it’s reasonable to judge visible fruit.

 

[PRmerger]

I mean that primarily setting out to expose the incoherency of certain positions can be construed rightly or wrongly as unattractive - especially when at least the stated goal of a thread is to hear where Evangelicals (Protestants) are coming from - what turns them off about Catholicism.

Then I suppose you would have to change every single thread title to this.

Or, we could simply understand the nature and culture of CAFs and accept what is implicit in its mission.

 

[Michael68]

At some point it’s reasonable to judge visible fruit.

Didn’t someone say some time ago, “Judge not lest ye be judged”?

 

[FollowChrist34]

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Amen!

And I will add that if anyone reads these words of Matthew and doesn’t tremble at the thought that it applies to himself, then he is, ironically, in worse shape than the hypocrite.

 

[Della]

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Indeed, the verse about “know them by their fruits” comes farther down:

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits.

Jesus has not reversed himself here. Rather, he is talking about false prophets whose aim is to destroy our faith. He was not talking about us judging one another’s good deeds, be those good deeds spiritual acts of mercy or corporal acts of mercy. Many people pray fervently but are known to no one for their sanctity because they are not demonstrative about it. While others are quite visible in their good deeds.

My dh is a member of the Knights of Columbus, for example. He gets Columbia, their magazine in which all the wonderful things those men do for others is listed. Every month there’s a new list of such deeds done by the Knights–it’s quite impressive. And that’s only one Catholic fraternal organization. We Catholics may not parade all our good deeds before the world, but we do them, quietly and without fanfare because that is what Jesus has called us to do.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Indeed, the verse about “know them by their fruits” comes farther down:

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits.

Jesus has not reversed himself here. Rather, he is talking about false prophets whose aim is to destroy our faith. He was not talking about us judging one another’s good deeds, be those good deeds spiritual acts of mercy or corporal acts of mercy. Many people pray fervently but are known to no one for their sanctity because they are not demonstrative about it. While others are quite visible in their good deeds.

My dh is a member of the Knights of Columbus, for example. He gets Columbia, their magazine in which all the wonderful things those men do for others is listed. Every month there’s a new list of such deeds done by the Knights–it’s quite impressive. And that’s only one Catholic fraternal organization. We Catholics may not parade all our good deeds before the world, but we do them, quietly and without fanfare because that is what Jesus has called us to do.

We are headed in the right direction here. My guess is not a single person on this thread, including our Protestant buddies, would disagree with a single word of any of this. Now that is what I call good fruit!

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

 

[feed_me]

Sorry for not reading the thead but im too lazy to read through 36 pages so i will put my quote in .

I do think alot of it has to do with celebacy at least at first. And i do personally agree with the protestans with that, but i can also see it from the catholic way of how much a priest has to do in a day (because of lack of priests) and see it as alot if work and no time for fun with the hun. Now on that topic, could the church remove the vow-- yes, with certain conditions like you have to marry before being confirmed. The other issue with celecacy is that the church doesnt want property going to family, but if the building belongs to the property of the church then it cant be passed down from priest to wife cause it belongs to the church. Heck let the priest invest in a house for his retirement and it will be his retirement gift just saying.
Will the church do away with it anytime soon…no because it would infuryate the current priests who are under vows and are too old to marry and feel left out unless the pope says otherwise. just my 2 cents.

 

[Della]

Sorry for not reading the thead but im too lazy to read through 36 pages so i will put my quote in .

I do think alot of it has to do with celebacy at least at first. And i do personally agree with the protestans with that, but i can also see it from the catholic way of how much a priest has to do in a day (because of lack of priests) and see it as alot if work and no time for fun with the hun. Now on that topic, could the church remove the vow-- yes, with certain conditions like you have to marry before being confirmed. The other issue with celecacy is that the church doesnt want property going to family, but if the building belongs to the property of the church then it cant be passed down from priest to wife cause it belongs to the church. Heck let the priest invest in a house for his retirement and it will be his retirement gift just saying.
Will the church do away with it anytime soon…no because it would infuryate the current priests who are under vows and are too old to marry and feel left out unless the pope says otherwise. just my 2 cents.

And just how many men are called to the priesthood that this should be on anyone’s radar? No one puts a gun to a man’s back and makes him take a vow of celibacy. He does it of his own free will. And no, sex is not all it’s cracked up to be. It’s not the meaning of life to “be in love” with a woman. We aren’t baptized into other people, but into Christ. We die with him in baptism and rise to new life in him. Therefore no Christian has a “right” to his own life, but it is Christ’s to do with has he pleases. The modern world rejects this kind of committment in favor of selfish desires and getting all we want. But for the Christian it’s not the case. We are no longer ours, but Christ’s–to live the life he calls us to–be it marriage or celibacy or whatever.

 

[feed_me]

And just how many men are called to the priesthood that this should be on anyone’s radar? No one puts a gun to a man’s back and makes him take a vow of celibacy. He does it of his own free will. And no, sex is not all it’s cracked up to be. It’s not the meaning of life to “be in love” with a woman. We aren’t baptized into other people, but into Christ. We die with him in baptism and rise to new life in him. Therefore no Christian has a “right” to his own life, but it is Christ’s to do with has he pleases. The modern world rejects this kind of committment in favor of selfish desires and getting all we want. But for the Christian it’s not the case. We are no longer ours, but Christ’s–to live the life he calls us to–be it marriage or celibacy or whatever.

1. Nobody said anything about being selfish in the call to serve as a priest because even it is backed up by scripture all over the OT and NT.
2. If it was really free will to serve then people could enter the semenary without taking that vow and could serve without the vow. Again its backed up with scripture all over the OT and NT.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s exactly it in a nutshell.

What’s sad is that many Catholics (well, my experience suggests “many”, although that’s not scientific of course) look down more on a Catholic who starts going to a Protestant church than on one who simply stops going to church. (I imagine that happens, in reverse, with some Evangelicals, but that’s outside of my experience.)

 

[Peter_J]

And I agree about the “all or nothing” approach being unfortunate, but I see that on both sides. I think it is fine to defend your faith and your denomination, but the idea behind forums is to exchange ideas, IMHO.

There are some Christian forums out there that aren’t specifically Catholic or specifically Evangelical, or specifically Lutheran or what have you… but they usually don’t do very well. (I don’t know if it was your post that made me think of this, or if it was the fact that I talked about forums/all-or-nothing earlier today. So you can decide if this post is directed to you or not .)

I am not sure how much reminding any of us needs that Catholics and Evangelicals (or other Protestants) have doctrinal disagreements. To me that is like saying the sun shines and then at night the moon shines.

That’s because of Ella??

 

[FollowChrist34]

There are some Christian forums out there that aren’t specifically Catholic or specifically Evangelical, or specifically Lutheran or what have you… but they usually don’t do very well. (I don’t know if it was your post that made me think of this, or if it was the fact that I talked about forums/all-or-nothing earlier today. So you can decide if this post is directed to you or not .)

I confess to being a little green on the forum e-world (and I hope to stay that way). I just found CAF by mistake in some search on some Catholic question I had. Once I saw an Orthodox forum and I followed it for a few days, but it had like two threads and 11 participants and nobody was fighting. :yawn: (…joke)

I do like the fact that all denominations come onto CAF; it can get a little rough - both from some on our “side” and “theirs”. I do feel sorry for the serious folks though who are really trying to grow in their faith and learn, share thoughts, etc. - on either side come to think of it.

That’s because of Ella??

Yet again I am pleading cultural ignorance. I’ll take a guess - is there an Ella Fitzgerald song about the sun shining and the moon shining? I remember one about a yellow basket but I don’t think that was Ella - a tisket a tasket my little yellow basket, it went.

 

[Peter_J]

Yet again I am pleading cultural ignorance. I’ll take a guess - is there an Ella Fitzgerald song about the sun shining and the moon shining? I remember one about a yellow basket but I don’t think that was Ella - a tisket a tasket my little yellow basket, it went.

Oops. This is one of those cases where my post-planning runs ahead of my actually typing, and then I forget to type everything I planned, if you follow me. Let me try it again …

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by FollowChrist34
I am not sure how much reminding any of us needs that Catholics and Evangelicals (or other Protestants) have doctrinal disagreements. To me that is like saying the sun shines and then at night the moon shines.

That’s because of Ella?? (That’s a fun but way-too-obscure moment from Ella Enchanted.)

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J;13325333:

There are some Christian forums out there that aren’t specifically Catholic or specifically Evangelical, or specifically Lutheran or what have you… but they usually don’t do very well. (I don’t know if it was your post that made me think of this, or if it was the fact that I talked about forums/all-or-nothing earlier today. So you can decide if this post is directed to you or not .)

I confess to being a little green on the forum e-world (and I hope to stay that way). I just found CAF by mistake in some search on some Catholic question I had. Once I saw an Orthodox forum and I followed it for a few days, but it had like two threads and 11 participants and nobody was fighting. :yawn: (…joke)

Actually, they may not be as unsuccessful as I was thinking, those “not specifically Catholic or specifically Evangelical” forums that I mentioned. I just now visited some for the first time in … years, and some of them were just as dust-covered as I expected, but I also found some that seem fairly active. (I won’t post links, as I think that would be a kind of spamming, but if you like I can PM them to you.)

I guess that, if I were to get involved in a new forum (which seems unlikely, as I have to struggle against myself, to keep my participation on this forum down to several hours per week ) it would probably be one of those, rather than a Protestant forum.

Not that I have anything against Protestant forums (well, excepting ones like CARM) … but I suspect that I would find that to be too much “more-of-the-same” as here (in reverse, obviously), in terms of “our side … their side”, like you said.

 

[Della]

1. Nobody said anything about being selfish in the call to serve as a priest because even it is backed up by scripture all over the OT and NT.

And I said nothing about “being selfish in the call to serve as a priest”, so I’m truly puzzled as to your point. Please reread what I wrote. Perhaps you misread or reacted to what you thought I meant instead of what I actually wrote?

1. If it was really free will to serve then people could enter the semenary without taking that vow and could serve without the vow. Again its backed up with scripture all over the OT and NT.

That’s not what I wrote. I wrote that a man chooses celibacy of his own free will. Celibacy is part of being a Catholic priest. It’s been in force for centuries for good reason, with plenty of scriptural backing (note I did not say scriptural proof because Catholics do not use the Bible as a proof-text for our beliefs and practices).

If this is unattractive to some Protestants it is because they don’t understand the kind of total committment it calls for. For most Protestant communities the human family is the center of their lives. But in the Catholic understanding the family is a symbol of the Trinity. Our ministers serve Christ in his Church as spiritual fathers, not merely as preachers. They administer sacraments, which requires them to be free to offer them whenever needed. A man totally dedicated to the Church is freer to do that than those who have the concerns of a family. Jesus and Paul both spoke of this, but for many in the Protestant world (and even for some Catholics) it’s too hard a thing to accept.

 

[FollowChrist34]

That’s because of Ella?? (That’s a fun but way-too-obscure moment from Ella Enchanted.)

Sorry, I don’t know what Ella Enchanted is.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Actually, they may not be as unsuccessful as I was thinking, those “not specifically Catholic or specifically Evangelical” forums that I mentioned. I just now visited some for the first time in … years, and some of them were just as dust-covered as I expected, but I also found some that seem fairly active. (I won’t post links, as I think that would be a kind of spamming, but if you like I can PM them to you.)

I guess that, if I were to get involved in a new forum (which seems unlikely, as I have to struggle against myself, to keep my participation on this forum down to several hours per week ) it would probably be one of those, rather than a Protestant forum.

Not that I have anything against Protestant forums (well, excepting ones like CARM) … but I suspect that I would find that to be too much “more-of-the-same” as here (in reverse, obviously), in terms of “our side … their side”, like you said.

Agreed on this - time spent on the forums is of much better use when you have good discussion not just sniping (or clowning around). So…I guess back to the topic…