Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[Peter_J]

Sorry, I don’t know what Ella Enchanted is.

Well, this will surely be a major let-down, but what the heck I looked up that scene …

Hattie: Olive, have you noticed anything strange about Ella?
Olive: No, not really.
(Pause.)
Hattie: Have you noticed it gets darker at night then lighter when the sun comes up?
Olive: That’s because of Ella??
Hattie: Never mind.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well, this will surely be a major let-down, but what the heck I looked up that scene …

Hattie: Olive, have you noticed anything strange about Ella?
Olive: No, not really.
(Pause.)
Hattie: Have you noticed it gets darker at night then lighter when the sun comes up?
Olive: That’s because of Ella??
Hattie: Never mind.

You win. I googled Ella Enchanted. I now know what it is. (am I a better person for it? who knows) One good turn deserves another!

Here you go…

youtube.com/watch?v=f4yXBIigZbg

 

[Tomyris]

That’s not what I wrote. I wrote that a man chooses celibacy of his own free will. Celibacy is part of being a Catholic priest. It’s been in force for centuries for good reason, with plenty of scriptural backing (note I did not say scriptural proof because Catholics do not use the Bible as a proof-text for our beliefs and practices).

If this is unattractive to some Protestants it is because they don’t understand the kind of total committment it calls for. For most Protestant communities the human family is the center of their lives. But in the Catholic understanding the family is a symbol of the Trinity. Our ministers serve Christ in his Church as spiritual fathers, not merely as preachers. They administer sacraments, which requires them to be free to offer them whenever needed. A man totally dedicated to the Church is freer to do that than those who have the concerns of a family. Jesus and Paul both spoke of this, but for many in the Protestant world (and even for some Catholics) it’s too hard a thing to accept.

Celibate priests are Roman rite only. You make it sound like ALL Catholic priests are celibate.

And one can be totally dedicated to Christ and to one’s spouse, the second as a result of the first dedication.

There are some Protestant celibate ministers, but the Scriptural norm is for an elder to be married. One of the standards is to examine the behavior of his children - something impossible to do for the celibate. Celibacy in ministers is allowable but the norm is for them to be married. Under the Law, priests were typically if not always married.

 

[PRmerger]

Celibate priests are Roman rite only. You make it sound like ALL Catholic priests are celibate.

And one can be totally dedicated to Christ and to one’s spouse, the second as a result of the first dedication.

There are some Protestant celibate ministers, but the Scriptural norm is for an elder to be married. One of the standards is to examine the behavior of his children - something impossible to do for the celibate. Celibacy in ministers is allowable but the norm is for them to be married. Under the Law, priests were typically if not always married.

And yet Jesus, the High Priest, was not married.

 

[Tomyris]

And yet Jesus, the High Priest, was not married.

His wedding feast is coming up!

 

[PRmerger]

His wedding feast is coming up!

As with all celibate priests, right?

 

[feed_me]

And yet Jesus, the High Priest, was not married.

Thats because he is God. And Peter was married, God didnt condem him for it. Even St. Paul said he wishes for people to be single but because of immorality, it is better to marry then burn with passion(sin).

 

[Tomyris]

As with all celibate priests, right?

No. They are not Christ. There is only the One. They are part of the body but they are not marrying the body. They are part of the bride, they are not the groom. There is only one Groom.

 

[PRmerger]

Thats because he is God.

That’s a nonsequitur, feed me.

If priests are supposed to be married, then Jesus couldn’t be a priest in his own Church.

And Peter was married, God didnt condem him for it.

Well, we know he had a motherinlaw. But we don’t know that his wife was living when he was ordained to the priesthood.

Even St. Paul said he wishes for people to be single but because of immorality, it is better to marry then burn with passion(sin).

Amen!

No man who is “burning with passion” for another woman (or, I suppose, a man) ought to be ordained.

 

[PRmerger]

No. They are not Christ. There is only the One. They are part of the body but they are not marrying the body. They are part of the bride, they are not the groom. There is only one Groom.

Indeed. There is only One Groom.

But the celibate priest will also be enjoying the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, as he, too, will be joined to the Groom.

So what you propose for Christ will also be true for celibate priests.

 

[Tomyris]

That’s a nonsequitur, feed me.

If priests are supposed to be married, then Jesus couldn’t be a priest in his own Church.

He is going to be married, and He is eternally a priest.

Well, we know he had a motherinlaw. But we don’t know that his wife was living when he was ordained to the priesthood.

New International Version
Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?

Clearly ALL the apostles except Paul were married and took their wives with them in ministry. The idea that Peter was single when an apostle is pure fiction.

No man who is “burning with passion” for another woman (or, I suppose, a man) ought to be ordained.

Hmmm.

I would rather have someone to confide in who struggles with passion and has overcome it than someone who has no idea what a struggle it is to fight temptation.

A single minister who does nothing but ministry lives a life where he cannot understand the struggles other people go through - I would find it very difficult to respect such a man as anyone worth listening to. A married man understands marriage and the struggles the rest of us go through: he can sympathize with us in our weakness instead of being other-worldly and so heavenly minded he is no earthly good. But that is not to say someone CAN be celibate and have their feet on the ground and an understanding of what life is like for most of us. But it would be a barrier he would have to overcome.

 

[Tomyris]

Indeed. There is only One Groom.

But the celibate priest will also be enjoying the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, as he, too, will be joined to the Groom.

So what you propose for Christ will also be true for celibate priests.

Not as you state it. They are not “little grooms” marrying the church. They are part of the bride.

 

[PRmerger]

Not as you state it. They are not “little grooms” marrying the church. They are part of the bride.

Very Catholic this!

And that means that they, like Christ, will be married.

So they are celibate, just like Christ was celibate, in anticipation of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

 

[Tomyris]

Very Catholic this!

And that means that they, like Christ, will be married.

So they are celibate, just like Christ was celibate, in anticipation of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

I’ve known two celibate Protestant ministers. One was celibate, we learned after he passed away, because he was homosexual and it was a deep dark secret. But the struggle lent a potency to his preaching, because he knew that we all struggle with temptation, and his agony was intense, as ours can be in various areas. He was a pastor.

The second one was a missionary who knew from an early age that God had called him to go to dangerous places. He spent a lot of time in the backcountry of Venezuala and Columbia, reaching the Indians with the Gospel, and there were numerous attempts on his life. He also faced sickness and numerous obstacles. But he persevered. He talked about a young woman whom he fell in love with in college. He told her he wanted to marry her and go on the mission field together, but she refused. She would marry him if he took a nice stateside pastorate. But that was not what God called him to do, so he said no. He was faithful to his call.

So I think there is room for celibate ministers, but if you read the qualifications, it indicates the normal thing is for ministers to be married. Orthodox priests can be married, non-Roman Catholic priests can be married, but not Roman Catholic priests. It just seems to Evangelicals that the Roman Catholic Church has it exactly backwards on this: some (e.g. Anglican convert priests) can be married, but it is normative for priests to be single. You cannot say it is Tradition that they be single. It is a human invention that seems to go against Scriptural norms, and that rubs Evangelicals the wrong way.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve known two celibate Protestant ministers. One was celibate, we learned after he passed away, because he was homosexual and it was a deep dark secret. But the struggle lent a potency to his preaching, because he knew that we all struggle with temptation, and his agony was intense, as ours can be in various areas. He was a pastor.

The second one was a missionary who knew from an early age that God had called him to go to dangerous places. He spent a lot of time in the backcountry of Venezuala and Columbia, reaching the Indians with the Gospel, and there were numerous attempts on his life. He also faced sickness and numerous obstacles. But he persevered. He talked about a young woman whom he fell in love with in college. He told her he wanted to marry her and go on the mission field together, but she refused. She would marry him if he took a nice stateside pastorate. But that was not what God called him to do, so he said no. He was faithful to his call.

:bowdown:

So I think there is room for celibate ministers, but if you read the qualifications, it indicates the normal thing is for ministers to be married.

So here’s where your error lies. The Bible doesn’t claim to make itself the rule book for what qualifications you need to be a priest.

That’s a man-made tradition.

It’s not found in the Bible.

And even if it were the rule book for priestly qualifications, it would eliminate Christ. As already stated, He wouldn’t even qualify to be a priest in His own Church!

 

[Tomyris]

So here’s where your error lies. The Bible doesn’t claim to make itself the rule book for what qualifications you need to be a priest.

That’s a man-made tradition.

It’s not found in the Bible.

And even if it were the rule book for priestly qualifications, it would eliminate Christ. As already stated, He wouldn’t even qualify to be a priest in His own Church!

1 Timothy 3, New International Version. I have bolded the qualifications that indicate marriage is normative:

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer is to be above reproach,** faithful to his wife**, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of fulla respect. 5(If** anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. 8In the same way, deacons(“http://biblehub.com/niv/1_timothy/3.htm#footnotes”) are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A** deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children** and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:5-9

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

It seems to me that Paul is laying out criteria, even though he remained single. It is a both-and. I think you have to have a pretty good reason to think you are to be celibate and a minister.

You touch on something else, and that is the idea that ministers (my deliberate word choice) are priests (Catholic/Lutheran/Orthodox term). A discussion as to why Evangelicals find the term unattractive might be profitable. But I gotta go.

 

[Peter_J]

Celibate priests are Roman rite only.

Thank you, Tomyris. link. You’re a good Catholic.

Oh wait …

 

[Starwarsfan2]

:bowdown:

So here’s where your error lies. The Bible doesn’t claim to make itself the rule book for what qualifications you need to be a priest.

That’s a man-made tradition.

It’s not found in the Bible.

And even if it were the rule book for priestly qualifications, it would eliminate Christ. As already stated, He wouldn’t even qualify to be a priest in His own Church!

The Holy scriptures does explicitly state that priests and bishops may marry and that includes after ordination , Tomryis already quoted some verses to support my statement and hers .

 

[feed_me]

The Holy scriptures does explicitly state that priests and bishops may marry and that includes after ordination , Tomryis already quoted some verses to support my statement and hers .

A priest should not be married after ordination because it allows the devil to slip in and work mischif on that church. He should be married before ordination and if his wife dies then he still has his kids and the church to help him with raising his kids which today lots of people are looking for jobs. Marriage before not after.

 

[feed_me]

Now to redirect the topic to 2 things that the Catholic Church fails on is this:

1. The priests of the church arent trained to do exercisms and it has been recently confirmed from the Vatican, cant find the link unfortunitly.
2. The gifts that God gives, there is no hope of ever being trained to use the gifts in the church. Lack of classes, training on how to use the tool. Looks like I will have an excuse for when God askes me why I didnt use the gifts that he gave. I will be able to say Its the Catholic Church, there was nobody to train me on how to use the gifts, basically… its the Catholic Church.