Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[TC3033]

No, it isn’t.

Understood, crossed that bridge about 20 pages back.

 

[Thorolfr]

Didn’t Jesus breathe on the Apostles and tell them that whatever sins they bind are bound in heaven and whatever sins they loose will loosed in heaven? How could they do this without hearing confessions?

In my Lutheran church, during the service every Sunday, the whole congregations says:

“Most merciful God, we confess that we are captive to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen.”

Then the pastor says standing in front of the whole congregation, “As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

So the pastor doesn’t have to hear individual confession from each of us to forgive all of our sins.

 

[Peter_J]

For many Evangelicals and other non-Catholics, Michael, it’s not a question of confession itself as a gift from God in accordance with our human nature, but that confession to a priest is required for a mortal sin to be forgiven unless one has perfect contrition (and what person can really know that their contrition is perfect?)

Admittedly I haven’t read all of the most recent posts on this thread, but what you’re saying doesn’t sound like what S316 said …

Didn’t Jesus breathe on the Apostles and tell them that whatever sins they bind are bound in heaven and whatever sins they loose will loosed in heaven? How could they do this without hearing confessions?

Another reason why Catholicism is not attractive.

Isn’t that like saying that Evangelicals reject the passage that Michael referred to?

 

[FollowChrist34]

In my Lutheran church, during the service every Sunday, the whole congregations says:

“Most merciful God, we confess that we are captive to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen.”

Then the pastor says standing in front of the whole congregation, “As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

So the pastor doesn’t have to hear individual confession from each of us to forgive all of our sins.

Just for the record, private confession exists and is available upon request in the Lutheran Church. Also, Catholics are forgiven their sins at Mass as well - venial sins are forgiven in worthy taking of the Eucharist. (isn’t there an earlier point too in the Mass where “collective” forgiveness is asked for our sins by the priest?) I also count the Lord’s Prayer too - forgive us our trespasses.

 

[Thorolfr]

This is incorrect.

The Scriptures are quite explicit about the fact that Jesus established a way (that is, “ritual work”) for our sins to be forgiven–through confession to a priest.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”–John 20: 21-23

And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ --2 Cor 2:10

Is any one among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain… and… it did not rain…–James 5: 14-17

Where in these Scripture passages does it say that confession must be made to a priest and that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven? In fact, the passage from James says, “Therefore confess your sins to one another.” It doesn’t say, “Therefore confess your sins to a priest.”

 

[PRmerger]

Where in these Scripture passages does it say that confession must be made to a priest and that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven? In fact, the passage from James says, “Therefore confess your sins to one another.” It doesn’t say, “Therefore confess your sins to a priest.”

As we were discussing, before the poster got offended at our asking the question: John 20: 21-23.

How is it that the apostles knew what sins to retain and what sins to forgive, unless you confessed your sins to them?

 

[Thorolfr]

As we were discussing, before the poster got offended at our asking the question: John 20: 21-23.

How is it that the apostles knew what sins to retain and what sins to forgive, unless you confessed your sins to them?

The passage in John says that the disciples could forgive sins and this was one way for sins to be forgiven. But it doesn’t say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven nor does it say that this power given the disciples was passed on to anyone else. And if you say that the passage in John means that only disciples or priest can forgive sins, then what about James which says “confess to one another” and does not specify a certain special person that must receive the confession?

 

[PRmerger]

The passage in John says that the disciples could forgive sins and this was one way for sins to be forgiven.

Ok.

But we are agreed now that there is confession to a priest in the Bible, yes?

But it doesn’t say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven nor does it say that this power given the disciples was passed on to anyone else.

Different question.

We have to acknowledge first that in the early church men confessed their sins to the apostles.

Yes?

And if you say that the passage in John means that only disciples or priest can forgive sins, then what about James which says “confess to one another” and does not specify a certain special person that must receive the confession?

Why would priests/apostles/disciples be excluded from “one another”?

If I say I went to confession to my priest, I would think that this means that I confessed to “another”, yeah?

 

[FollowChrist34]

The passage in John says that the disciples could forgive sins and this was one way for sins to be forgiven. But it doesn’t say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven nor does it say that this power given the disciples was passed on to anyone else. And if you say that the passage in John means that only disciples or priest can forgive sins, then what about James which says “confess to one another” and does not specify a certain special person that must receive the confession?

I agree - the early Church had multiple forms of confession - before the congregation was the primary one, but I think confession to Church elders was also a known practice from the early Church on. Confession of sins on some level as a requirement in practicing the faith is indisputable. I don’t think there is a specific commandment in the Bible to confess before a priest, but tradition fully supports this practice. It certainly does not violate Scripture in any way. From the early Church to the present, priests have had the authority to seek God’s forgiveness of our sins.

(I am sure you know that Martin Luther was a passionate defender of private confession.)

 

[FollowChrist34]

The Early Church clearly taught confession of sins, and in Church! Indeed, the following citations clearly show that from the very beginnings of the post-Apostolic Church down to the present day, confession of sins was understood as holy, necessary and effectual for the remission of sins. Those who avoid it must necessarily find themselves outside of Biblical thought on sin, repentance and confession. Note the dates of these documents!

The Didache – The Earliest Christian Catechism (pre-dating some of the canonical writings of the New Testament)

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure”

(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light”

(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ”

Origen of Alexandria

“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’”

(Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

St. Cyprian
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord”

(ibid., 28).

“inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]“

“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]“

(ibid., 51[55]:22).

St. Aphraahat the Persian

“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us”

(Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).

St. Basil the Great

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles”

(Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).

St. John Chrysostom

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven”

(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

St. Ambrose of Milan

“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only”

(Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).

St. Jerome of Stridonium

“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him”

(Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

 

[Thorolfr]

Ok.

But we are agreed now that there is confession to a priest in the Bible, yes?

The Scripture mentions confession to one of the twelve disciples, but “disciple” is not a synonym for “Catholic priest.”

Why would priests/apostles/disciples be excluded from “one another”?

If I say I went to confession to my priest, I would think that this means that I confessed to “another”, yeah?

I wouldn’t say that priests are excluded from the ones who may receive confessions but when James says “confess to one another,” I would interpret this to mean that any Christian, not just clergy, can receive confessions.

 

[Thorolfr]

The Didache – The Earliest Christian Catechism (pre-dating some of the canonical writings of the New Testament)

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure”

(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light”

None of this says that confession must be made individually to a priest, and it doesn’t say that the requirement of confession cannot be fulfilled through a group confession like the one that we do in my Lutheran Church every Sunday when we all say, “Most merciful God, we confess that we are captive to sin and cannot free ourselves,…etc.”

There is also nothing in Scripture about a distinction between venial sins and mortal sins.

 

[PRmerger]

The Scripture mentions confession to one of the twelve disciples, but “disciple” is not a synonym for “Catholic priest.”

So there was audible confession to another man,

Yes?

 

[Thorolfr]

So there was audible confession to another man,

Yes?

The passage from John does not even have the word confession. It just say, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” It doesn’t specify how the disciples would learn about these sins or if they include both private and public sins. It doesn’t say that the disciples would learn about these sins through confession. Perhaps it is only talking about sins that are publicly known.

 

[FollowChrist34]

None of this says that confession must be made individually to a priest, and it doesn’t say that the requirement of confession cannot be fulfilled through a group confession like the one that we do in my Lutheran Church every Sunday when we all say, “Most merciful God, we confess that we are captive to sin and cannot free ourselves,…etc.”

There is also nothing in Scripture about a distinction between venial sins and mortal sins.

In principle I agree. But my guess is when sins were confessed in the early Church, you specified your sin to the congregation. I could be wrong. But I have heard stories that would seem to confirm that. Private confession came into being as a more merciful approach.

The Bible does in fact distinguish between different levels of sin:

1 John 5:16-17 (RSV): “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal.”

 Luke 12:47-48: "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more." (cf. Lev. 5:17, Lk. 23:34)

John 19:11: "'. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.'"

Acts 17:30: "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent," (cf. Rom. 3:25)

1 Timothy 1:13: "though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief."

Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

The Bible also refers to (mortal) sins which - if not repented of - will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15).

 

[PRmerger]

The passage from John does not even have the word confession. It just say, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” It doesn’t specify how the disciples would learn about these sins or if they include both private and public sins. It doesn’t say that the disciples would learn about these sins through confession. Perhaps it is only talking about sins that are publicly known.

That’s certainly a tortured reading of the text, in an attempt to deny something you already deny.

 

[PRmerger]

The passage from John does not even have the word confession. It just say, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” It doesn’t specify how the disciples would learn about these sins or if they include both private and public sins. It doesn’t say that the disciples would learn about these sins through confession. Perhaps it is only talking about sins that are publicly known.

How is it that they would know whether to retain or forgive the sin?

 

[dmftx]

Sorry but don’t negate the powerful growth that occurs through confession for Catholics. It is sometimes painful but always strengthening and enlightening. I always feel closer to our Father when participating in the sacraments and I often think of what non-Catholics are missing. BTW, priests are disciples as we all can be - they are just called to an extraordinary ministry.

 

[Thorolfr]

How is it that they would know whether to retain or forgive the sin?

Even in the Catholic Church, I’ve never heard of anyone who went to confession and was told by the priest, “I’m going to forgive this sin, this sin and this sin, but as for this other sin you mentioned, I’m going to retain it and not forgive it.”

 

[AbideWithMe]

Admittedly I haven’t read all of the most recent posts on this thread, but what you’re saying doesn’t sound like what S316 said …

Isn’t that like saying that Evangelicals reject the passage that Michael referred to?

Peter J—I wasn’t meaning to echo what Seeker said exactly, but instead I was replying to Michael myself as an Evangelical (an Evangelical Methodist, to be more precise). I would say we don’t ignore the passages, but I would have similar concerns to Thorolfr’s below. All of which is not to deny that confession is a beneficent gift from God, as I said earlier.

The passage in John says that the disciples could forgive sins and this was one way for sins to be forgiven. But it doesn’t say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven nor does it say that this power given the disciples was passed on to anyone else. And if you say that the passage in John means that only disciples or priest can forgive sins, then what about James which says “confess to one another” and does not specify a certain special person that must receive the confession?