Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by leekonghian

Okay, admittedly I don’t know either leekonghian or you terribly well, and I’m not sure I want to get involved in this … but I feel I at least have to ask how you know that leekonghian didn’t see people praying and bowing before statues?

 

[Wannano]

No, like standing in front of the St. Joseph statue, “my cancer has come back, St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, pray for me to the Lord our God.”

Part of the problem communicating non verbally is misunderstanding. It seems like you should have answered my question with a yes instead of no.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Part of the problem communicating non verbally is misunderstanding. It seems like you should have answered my question with a yes instead of no.

I would have except for the “favors” - that made it sound like a luckycharm to my mental ears

 

[clem456]

Even though I’m an Evangelical Christian, I attended Mass on several occasions in Catholic Churches. The atmosphere inside a Catholic Church appeared more solemn and they tend to read from a book. The Eucharist appeared to be the main event, and non Catholics are not permitted to participate. In Protestant Churches, people tend to be more friendly and welcoming of visitors and there is more emphasis on teaching. In the Catholic Churches I attended, nobody cared who I was and nobody attempted to talk to me. Also, at the Catholic Churches, I saw people praying and bowing before statues. This greatly upset me, and I have rarely attended Catholic Churches since.

It seems to me this poster illustrates the prime reason most evangelicals are not attracted to Catholicism. In our parish, the droves who have tried us and left for the large Evan church say this. “I never felt welcome, no one ever said hello to me, I felt like I didn’t belong”. Over and over.
Evangelicals tend to be a more outward focused bunch. Many people are looking for the active presence of Christ, evidence of him, in the behavior of others. They want to see and hear who Christ is in the people around them.

When they see a people who is focused on the interior observance of the faith to the exclusion of it’s outward expression, the person does not sense Christ’s presence. They have no compelling reason to join this church. And they are not even close to ready to hear the theology behind what is going on on the altar. They are simply not close to ready for it.

Having a strong and welcoming outward expression of the faith is not at all incompatible with Catholicism. That can be expressed in what we would call kindness, welcoming, outreach. And yes, an invitation to the dreaded coffee.

How can a person come to the Eucharistic table if no one extends a hand to them, or acknowledges them?
Do we expect this grace of conversion to happen like magic? That is gnosticism. God’s grace must move the flesh of those already in the house, to acknowledge the flesh of those wanting to coming in.

 

[FollowChrist34]

It seems to me this poster illustrates the prime reason most evangelicals are not attracted to Catholicism. In our parish, the droves who have tried us and left for the large Evan church say this. “I never felt welcome, no one ever said hello to me, I felt like I didn’t belong”. Over and over.
Evangelicals tend to be a more outward focused bunch. Many people are looking for the active presence of Christ, evidence of him, in the behavior of others. They want to see and hear who Christ is in the people around them.

When they see a people who is focused on the interior observance of the faith to the exclusion of it’s outward expression, the person does not sense Christ’s presence. They have no compelling reason to join this church. And they are not even close to ready to hear the theology behind what is going on on the altar. They are simply not close to ready for it.

Having a strong and welcoming outward expression of the faith is not at all incompatible with Catholicism. That can be expressed in what we would call kindness, welcoming, outreach. And yes, an invitation to the dreaded coffee.

How can a person come to the Eucharistic table if no one extends a hand to them, or acknowledges them?
Do we expect this grace of conversion to happen like magic? That is gnosticism. God’s grace must move the flesh of those already in the house, to acknowledge the flesh of those wanting to coming in.

Totally agree. Catholics even freeze out other Catholics. I do it too, so don’t know how much value my passionate protestations bring to the table here…

I try to be very friendly and helpful with people who look lost or new, but my parish is huge - I regularly see a quite a number of people I’ve never seen before - I just assume they go to other Masses or parishes. Let’s face it, most Catholics would FREAK if you walked up and said hi, would you like coffee.

Perhaps pointing this out again and again will help wake us up to the problem - and motivate at least some of us to take steps to fix it. I think a lot of parishes are aware of it and are trying their darnedest to fix it, with appointed welcomers at the door, various social events, etc…there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[SyroMalankara]

You are right, however what pastor can justify spending thousands on a coffee bar or social to his bishop? It’s much easier for a pastor at an independent church with no real oversight to spend on fads or even local preferences and socials, a Catholic priest would have to explain this to his bishop and I’m sure many bishops would halt such a short-term no-actual-growth spend

 

[Tommy999]

It seems to me this poster illustrates the prime reason most evangelicals are not attracted to Catholicism. In our parish, the droves who have tried us and left for the large Evan church say this. “I never felt welcome, no one ever said hello to me, I felt like I didn’t belong”. Over and over.
Evangelicals tend to be a more outward focused bunch. Many people are looking for the active presence of Christ, evidence of him, in the behavior of others. **They want to see and hear who Christ is in the people around them. **
When they see a people who is focused on the interior observance of the faith to the exclusion of it’s outward expression, the person does not sense Christ’s presence. They have no compelling reason to join this church. And they are not even close to ready to hear the theology behind what is going on on the altar. They are simply not close to ready for it.

Having a strong and welcoming outward expression of the faith is not at all incompatible with Catholicism. That can be expressed in what we would call kindness, welcoming, outreach. And yes, an invitation to the dreaded coffee.

How can a person come to the Eucharistic table if no one extends a hand to them, or acknowledges them?
Do we expect this grace of conversion to happen like magic? That is gnosticism. God’s grace must move the flesh of those already in the house, to acknowledge the flesh of those wanting to coming in.

It’s nice to see Catholics acknowledge this issue, Clem456, which I believe is a real one. If more Catholic parishes dealt with this issue, I think it would help a lot.

I’ve heard some Catholic friends defend this unfriendliness by saying, “Church is for worshipping the Lord and spending time with Him and not a social club” and things like that. Why should outward friendliness to those around you (especially visitors) and worship of the Lord be mutually exclusive? It shouldn’t.

Note1: In all fairness, I bet there are Catholic parishes that practice hospitality to strangers, have greeters and those who help reach out to visitors.

Note2: Evangelicals and evangelical churches are far from perfect. We have our own issues, too, but they tend to be different in nature than this one.

 

[clem456]

Totally agree. Catholics even freeze out other Catholics. I do it too, so don’t know how much value my passionate protestations bring to the table here…

I try to be very friendly and helpful with people who look lost or new, but my parish is huge - I regularly see a quite a number of people I’ve never seen before - I just assume they go to other Masses or parishes. Let’s face it, most Catholics would FREAK if you walked up and said hi, would you like coffee.

Perhaps pointing this out again and again will help wake us up to the problem - and motivate at least some of us to take steps to fix it. I think a lot of parishes are aware of it and are trying their darnedest to fix it, with appointed welcomers at the door, various social events, etc…there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

I think the word “evangelical” itself denotes an outward focus. We could debate the theological ins and outs of that for sure.

It’s a simple practical matter really. Have people open the doors of the Church and say hello.
There doesn’t have to be irreverent conversations in the sanctuary or somersaults at the sign of peace.
Acknowledge people before and after Mass. Welcome and invite.
Common sense courtesy.

 

[clem456]

You are right, however what pastor can justify spending thousands on a coffee bar or social to his bishop? It’s much easier for a pastor at an independent church with no real oversight to spend on fads or even local preferences and socials, a Catholic priest would have to explain this to his bishop and I’m sure many bishops would halt such a short-term no-actual-growth spend

May common sense prevail.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I think the word “evangelical” itself denotes an outward focus. We could debate the theological ins and outs of that for sure.

It’s a simple practical matter really. Have people open the doors of the Church and say hello.
There doesn’t have to be irreverent conversations in the sanctuary or somersaults at the sign of peace.
Acknowledge people before and after Mass. Welcome and invite.
Common sense courtesy.

My parish does have people at the door - the priests even do it. It is great. Let’s put it out there - all Catholic parishes should consider this! The nice thing is that person (usually a volunteer) can answer questions, right, help steer the newcomer in the right direction, so they don’t feel so isolated, lost. Crucial first step.

 

[clem456]

It’s nice to see Catholics acknowledge this issue, Clem456, which I believe is a real one.
If more Catholic parishes dealt with this issue, I think it would help a lot.

I’ve heard some Catholic friends defend this unfriendliness by saying, “Church is for worshipping the Lord and spending time with Him and not a social club” and things like that. Why should outward friendliness to those around you (especially visitors) and worship of the Lord be mutually exclusive? It shouldn’t.

Note1: In all fairness, I bet there are Catholic parishes that practice hospitality to strangers, have greeters and those who help reach out to visitors.

Note2: Not trying to be self-righteous here because evangelicals and evangelical churches are far from perfect. We have our own issues, too, but they tend to be different in nature.

A good question for us as Catholics is
"What does “sacred” mean?’
We celebrate sacred mysteries at Mass. The Church is a sacred space. The people in the building are also sacred.

Reverence is called for. Silence is a show of reverence, Bowing, genuflecting, kneeling, singing, our focus on the realities in front of us, these all show reverence to the sacred.

One of those realities is the other human beings around us. We are sacred as well, not in the same way as the Body and Blood of Christ, but we are certainly as human beings at least as sacred as the Church building. We show reverence to people by at least acknowledging their presence.
If we are more attached to the outward inanimate signs of our faith than the living persons around us, something might be out of focus.

We can have reverence, and still be friendly and welcoming, at the appropriate times. It can happen. It does happen. In parishes where a commitment is made.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

They are requesting prayers to God from the person that the statue represents. Kind of like if you had a picture of your great grandpa and said “I’ll see you when I get there”…

That is not a helpful analogy. I am not sure why people keep using it. First of all, you ARE praying to / communicating with / honoring an image. Many reformed people of faith were taught that it is strictly forbidden. So please don’t try to explain you are just talking with a picture of an ancestor.

Secondly, you are communicating with the dead. Again, forbidden.

So when many Protestants see Roman Catholics do just that, it is going to cause some serious problems.

 

[Sarcelle]

That is not a helpful analogy. I am not sure why people keep using it. First of all, you ARE praying to / communicating with / honoring an image. Many reformed people of faith were taught that it is strictly forbidden. So please don’t try to explain you are just talking with a picture of an ancestor.

Secondly, you are communicating with the dead. Again, forbidden.

So when many Protestants see Roman Catholics do just that, it is going to cause some serious problems.

Oh please?

Do you actually think we Catholics do not know the difference between a statue and the actual thing?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

sigh
The Eucharist IS the main event, and no, non-Catholics not permitted to partake. Would you go into somebody else’s house, sit at their dinner table and demand to be fed?
.

Well, if you were invited, or it was an open house, and you were told NOT to partake of the food that others are eating in front of you, yes, it would appear to be extremely rude.

 

[clem456]

That is not a helpful analogy. I am not sure why people keep using it. First of all, you ARE praying to / communicating with / honoring an image. Many reformed people of faith were taught that it is strictly forbidden. So please don’t try to explain you are just talking with a picture of an ancestor.

Secondly, you are communicating with the dead. Again, forbidden.

So when many Protestants see Roman Catholics do just that, it is going to cause some serious problems.

The analogy is a good one. And helpful if you are willing to engage it.
The picture of your father or other relative is that of a person who exists. (I hope ) Do you believe your passed ancestors are alive?

Catholics believe in the resurrection of Christ, and that all of us hope for eternal life in him. Do you believe in the resurrection?

Your faith forbids you from looking at and speaking to your relative who is alive in Christ?
You don’t believe those alive in Christ can communicate?
What is it that binds them in heaven that they didn’t have on earth? I always hoped I would be more alive in heaven, not less.
You’re scaring me.

 

[clem456]

Well, if you were invited, or it was an open house, and you were told NOT to partake of the food that others are eating in front of you, yes, it would appear to be extremely rude.

Ah, but it’s not merely a dinner.
It’a a heavenly banquet.

Since your church has the word of god and preaching as the centerpiece, I am expecting an invitation to preach at your church, since you expect me to participate fully.

I’ll be waiting by the mailbox…

Or on the other hand, maybe I should defer to what you do, get to know you, learn about you, and then maybe when I have come to fuller realization, you will let me participate in the fullness of your service. That’s the way I would go about it.

 

[FollowChrist34]

That is not a helpful analogy. I am not sure why people keep using it. First of all, you ARE praying to / communicating with / honoring an image. Many reformed people of faith were taught that it is strictly forbidden. So please don’t try to explain you are just talking with a picture of an ancestor.

In all fairness, I don’t think anyone is praying TO the image - they are praying to who the image or statue depicts, Mary, Jesus, St. Francis, etc. You can smash a statue of the Virgin Mary - doesn’t do anything to Mary, correct? Regardless of what others perceive, this is what is happening with this kind of prayer. I’ve seen lots of images of Jesus that Protestants use; they are all over the Internet. They have drawings for their Bible stories.

Secondly, you are communicating with the dead. Again, forbidden.

So when many Protestants see Roman Catholics do just that, it is going to cause some serious problems.

I don’t see the saints or Mary or Jesus as ‘dead.’ They are in heaven, they live in that sense, spiritually.

These are pretty basic Catholic beliefs; I am fine with explaining them. But I am not sure we can do too much about them to accommodate ‘reformed’ discomfort. To me it is the same ‘discomfort’ I feel when someone says the bread and wine are just symbols or that marriage is about love…

 

[ComplineSanFran]

In all fairness, I don’t think anyone is praying TO the image - they are praying to who the image or statue depicts, Mary, Jesus, St. Francis, etc. You can smash a statue of the Virgin Mary - doesn’t do anything to Mary, correct? Regardless of what others perceive, this is what is happening with this kind of prayer. I’ve seen lots of images of Jesus that Protestants use; they are all over the Internet. They have drawings for their Bible stories.

I don’t see the saints or Mary or Jesus as ‘dead.’ They are in heaven, they live in that sense, spiritually.

These are pretty basic Catholic beliefs; I am fine with explaining them. But I am not sure we can do too much about them to accommodate ‘reformed’ discomfort.

You have clearly defined the disconnect. Two very different beliefs about communication with those who are dead, and supposedly in heaven. Evangelicals don’t do it. They are sometimes quite disturbed by it. The OP asked why there are divisions and this is a pretty high profile one.

 

[Padres1969]

Well, if you were invited, or it was an open house, and you were told NOT to partake of the food that others are eating in front of you, yes, it would appear to be extremely rude.

Not a great analogy however. I mean a Catholic mass is not an “open house” nor are all invited to partake in the Eucharist. Those that aren’t Catholic who are attending a Catholic mass are invited to observe and in a limited way participate by watching/listening/responding, as say you can at say a concert. But that doesn’t mean you’re invited to come up on stage and jam with the band.

Some churches do allow you to, my own among them and possibly your own depending on where you are situated as an Anglican. In fact my church encourages you to do so. But that doesn’t mean our rules should apply to another branch of the Christian family who have very long standing and clearly stated rules to the contrary.

 

[clem456]

You have clearly defined the disconnect. Two very different beliefs about communication with those who are dead, and supposedly in heaven. Evangelicals don’t do it. They are sometimes quite disturbed by it. The OP asked why there are divisions and this is a pretty high profile one.

Ok. The person you responded to told you we don’t pray to the statue, and you disputed him, so…?


Yea there is a disconnect.
It’s always good to accept a person’s explanation of their belief at face value.
When we say we don’t pray to statues, is that acceptable, or do you know here our hearts and minds are directed?
I accept that you don’t think it’s a good idea to communicate with to “the dead”.
I don’t agree with it, but ok…
We don’t pray to the statue.