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BrooklynBoy200
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Protestants don’t believe in original sin?
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VociMike
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What events do you have proof of after 2000 years? What does proof of historical events 2000 years ago look like? What other events 2000 years ago, events that you accept as probably correct, could meet the standards of proof you wish to apply to Christianity?
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you accept other historical events as probably having occurred, which have no more evidence than the story of Jesus. And yet you don’t assume that they were just made up. Why do you approach the story of Jesus with such skepticism, if you don’t apply the same level of skepticism to all of history?
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SoonerServant
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No, wrong, it does not say immersed in the Holy Spirit only. It also says," you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:12
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VociMike
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You don’t get it. You’re quoting Jesus but the OP doesn’t accept that what we claim to know of Jesus is even true!
Rather than attacking Catholicism in this thread, you’d might want to consider defending Christianity.
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Atreyu
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Do you believe that there is an objective truth? I would hope that you would say yes. The task we all face then, is to try to determine what this objective truth is. Personally, I feel that the Cosmological Argument shows us that there must exist some first-cause-without-cause. We can argue about this until we are blue in the face (I’ve already been doing it on another thread), but I would recommend reading the book God, Chance and Necessity by Keith Ward if you really want to challenge yourself on this Argument.
So anyway, I call this first-cause-without-cause “God” - it is my first and most fundamental definition of God. My next task then is to try to discover as much about God as I possibly can. Is God omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal? Has God revealed Himself (I hope you don’t mind me calling God “Him” at this stage) to man at all? Is man special among creation? These are the questions I must ask myself, and every single one of them has an objectively true answer. Do you agree? And so I turn to the things that are claimed to be “revelation” from God, to try to determine their accuracy. Having done so, I personally reached the conclusion that Jesus Christ died, was buried and then resurrected. I also reached the conclusion that he actually started a church on Earth, that would be guided and ruled by the successor of Peter and of which the gates of hell could not prevail against - such that this church would be protected against teaching error (heresies). The historical witness of the church which shows this constant and unchanging teaching is a fantastic witness to this truth.
Now I don’t really expect you to believe me in much of this. It’s really up to you to figure out just how much of what I have said is true or not. Look at the evidence; get some books on the subject. In particular, look at the arguments for the existence of God (such as the Cosmological Argument) and the evidence that Jesus Himself was God Incarnate. Then, you must determine which world-view is more reasonable.
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dbacks5439
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Is this post for me? I don’t see anywhere where the term “household” was used. For the time being, I am taking this method of switching topics as a ploy to avoid answering my questions. You might’ve seen where you were wrong, you might not. I don’t know. What you’re doing right now is avoiding my questions, in my opinion. Just to refresh…
1.) What did Paul mean in 2 Thess. 2:15?
2.) Where does it say we must be baptized in water? Could immersion be in the Holy Spirit, with sprinkling as a device for that immersion? Just something to consider.
Hint: Don't come off as strong or belligerent. Let's try to be respectful here. :)
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SoonerServant
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Sorry dbacks, you’re right, I just get all excited when I join these debates. To answer your question, let me ask you a question. Who were the men left with the responsiblity of carrying on the Lords work after he left the earth? That is where you will find the answer.
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Liberian
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Evil King Ln3,
Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums! I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.
Dorothy Sayers put it very well a generation or two ago: gods have become human many times, and have even died and risen from the dead several times, but never within recorded history. The divine events that started the other religions always happened somewhere in the distant past, the exact time and place lost in the mists of time. Christianity is the only religion whose God came to earth and died and rose from the dead at a specific place and at a specific time in history. We say “suffered under Pontius Pilate” because when the creeds were being written down, everybody had access to the official Roman records and could look up exactly when Pontius Pilate was in charge in Judea. And I have put my hand into the hole in the ground in which they stood up the cross on which Christ died. This specificity is what distinguishes Christianity from all other religions.
If you wish to distinguish between Catholicism and Protestantism, you can see that Protestantism is strictly derivative–it was a protest against something–while Catholicism stands on its own. There is a qualitative difference between the two.
- Liberian
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Atreyu
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They were the bishops of the Catholic Church, such as Ignatius of Antioch.
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SoonerServant
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The second will be found all throughout the New Testament. Jesus first and foremost, our example on Earth. How bout the eunich and Philip. Where else can you find where an actual baptism occured and there wasn’t water involed.
Wrong, the twelve apostles were. They were the only ones who lived with Jesus from beginning to end. They also had the supernatural ability of speaking in many tongues.
I’m sorry, now that I read over that, I see I need to restate it. They had the responsiblity of establishing the church and keeping it in the right direction for the duration of their lives.
Wrong, the twelve apostles were. They were the only ones who lived with Jesus from beginning to end. They also had the supernatural ability of speaking in many tongues.
I’m sorry, now that I read over that, I see I need to restate it. They had the responsiblity of establishing the church and keeping it in the right direction for the duration of their lives.
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Atreyu
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So what about Paul and Barnabas? Were they apostles? Yes. Where they in the Twelve? No.
Ignatius of Antioch was taught by the apostle John himself. Strangely enough, Ignatius had a very Catholic understanding of the role of bishop, as well as the Real Presence in the Eucharist. How could he have possibly gone so wrong - along with every single other Christian of his time - when he was taught by John? These apostles you speak of can’t have been very good teachers then…
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dbacks5439
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That’s quite all right! First, let’s look at Mt. 16:16-19. Here’s a usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm
For your question, look at verse 19. Jesus just gave Peter the Keys to Heaven. These Keys are a symbol of authority. Jesus also tells him that whatever he binds on earth will be bound in Heaven, etc. Peter has the authority to make infallible statements, such like Mary was born without the stain of original sin. Some of this binding and loosing is shared with the other apostles. This means that the Church (Roman Catholic) is hierarchal. The Pope (successor of Peter) has the most authority and is the only one who is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine (important to distinguish between this and other things, like who's gonna win the superbowl. In this case, the Pope is not infallible). Next up are the other Bishops. They have the power to ordain priests, and are the shepherds for their respective diocese. Priests have the least power. All three offices all share some of the powers however. The authority to forgive and retain sins, consecrating the Eucharist, and administer the Sacraments. (Priests cannot confirm however.) If you want more biblical verses for this and for any Catholic doctrine or belief, go on over to [scripturecatholic.com](scripturecatholic.com) If you want to talk further, please don't hesitate :)
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SoonerServant
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I take it you didn’t get the restatement?
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eliasaph99
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Because it’s not the incorrect faith, why else?
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evilkingln3
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I won’t deny, you make a good point, but here’s the truth. You can prove many things of happening 2,000 years ago, all through science. You know that as well as I do. You know that we can dig up ancient dead bodies and identify them, and can test artifacts for how old they are, etc., to prove many things by putting the pieces together.
Why do I approach the story of Jesus with such skepticism? Perhaps because of the endless flaws, circular logic and reasoning, and the fact that I’ve never, not once in my life, EVER seen something that can even mildly prove God’s existence. Don’t get me wrong, Jesus I’m assuming existed due to all the literature and such written about Him, but isn’t it convenient I haven’t seen God? Nor anyone I know? And don’t you dare reply to say that “people see God all the time and talk to him through prayer.”
Why? because hundreds of supposed “miracles” happen every day. Isn’t it nice that some cancer patients survive? Isn’t it nice that we associate the survivors with a miracle? That’s idiotic. What about the millions of starving people in the world? What about the HUNDREDS of genocides occurring because of religious clashes, Yugoslavia being a good recent example. What about the thousands of other cancer patients who try their hardest but Die? What about all the meaningless deaths? What about the people who have never heard of God? Do they go to Hell? Why would God create them in the first place? Why did God purposely create us, and since he created everything, how does he get the right to throw me in Hell? He would have to be the worst thing ever to exist if He throws me to Hell when I die because I live a life of honesty and I respect the morals set by the church, I simply don’t believe in the church! He created my mind, my thoughts, what I’m saying right now, and where I’m destined to go!
My point is, you say that I just as easily believe in other things from 2,000 years ago, but that is not true. I believe in those things when there is support for those things. Theres plenty of things I do NOT believe in that are thousands of years old because they are made-up legends/stories, just like the Bible. Going back to the Egyptians example, ofcourse I don’t believe in Aten, or Osiris, etc, because they are impossible, just like God. If I see it, I will believe it, but it is not faith if we are put into a dishonest world where millions of lies are told everyday, and for some reason Christianity is the true one good religion.
Religion is the adult Santa Claus.
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SoonerServant
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I hate to cut out like this, but I have to go. I’ll be on later so I hope to hear from you guys then. ttyl. Please someone be on!
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dbacks5439
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I saw your restatement after my post. Here’s another thing that is special about the Keys. Jesus was mimicing scripture when He did this. Go here again. usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah22.htm
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Read verse 22. There they are! The Keys that Jesus mention are a reference to this verse. The Catholic Church is the Perfected Davidic Kingdom. The Keys are a symbol of a.)Authority b.) Representation and c.) Succession.
Take a look at history. Ever since Peter, the first Pope, there is an unbroken link of successors. There is not one break in the line. Same with the other Bishops. The first Bishops were succeeded by others, and so on and so on. And here we are! Take a look back at Mt. 16:16-19. Jesus talks about how the Gates of the Netherworld will not prevail against His Church. We are the living proof of that Promise! God Bless! :)
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dbacks5439
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Finally, someone who I can talk philosophically with! There is a philosopher who you’d might like. His name is William Clifford. His essay, “The Ethics of Beliefs” is very much the same argument you propose. His main point is this. “it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.” Google his essay and read it. Then I’d like for you to view another essay by William James. It is called, “The Will to Believe”. Both essays aren’t long, and after you have read both, please share what you’ve found with us. Look forward to your thoughts!I won’t deny, you make a good point, but here’s the truth. You can prove many things of happening 2,000 years ago, all through science. You know that as well as I do. You know that we can dig up ancient dead bodies and identify them, and can test artifacts for how old they are, etc., to prove many things by putting the pieces together.
Why do I approach the story of Jesus with such skepticism? Perhaps because of the endless flaws, circular logic and reasoning, and the fact that I’ve never, not once in my life, EVER seen something that can even mildly prove God’s existence. Don’t get me wrong, Jesus I’m assuming existed due to all the literature and such written about Him, but isn’t it convenient I haven’t seen God? Nor anyone I know? And don’t you dare reply to say that “people see God all the time and talk to him through prayer.”
Why? because hundreds of supposed “miracles” happen every day. Isn’t it nice that some cancer patients survive? Isn’t it nice that we associate the survivors with a miracle? That’s idiotic. What about the millions of starving people in the world? What about the HUNDREDS of genocides occurring because of religious clashes, Yugoslavia being a good recent example. What about the thousands of other cancer patients who try their hardest but Die? What about all the meaningless deaths? What about the people who have never heard of God? Do they go to Hell? Why would God create them in the first place? Why did God purposely create us, and since he created everything, how does he get the right to throw me in Hell? He would have to be the worst thing ever to exist if He throws me to Hell when I die because I live a life of honesty and I respect the morals set by the church, I simply don’t believe in the church! He created my mind, my thoughts, what I’m saying right now, and where I’m destined to go!
My point is, you say that I just as easily believe in other things from 2,000 years ago, but that is not true. I believe in those things when there is support for those things. Theres plenty of things I do NOT believe in that are thousands of years old because they are made-up legends/stories, just like the Bible. Going back to the Egyptians example, ofcourse I don’t believe in Aten, or Osiris, etc, because they are impossible, just like God. If I see it, I will believe it, but it is not faith if we are put into a dishonest world where millions of lies are told everyday, and for some reason Christianity is the true one good religion.
Religion is the adult Santa Claus.
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Equus_Pallidus
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Catholicism may be the mother Church, but the Protestants are part of the the mother Church. Eccumenanism is what JPII talked about and we should explain to our Protestant brothers that we don’t disown them, even when they attack us.
Jesus never offered himself on condition, neither should we. He loves the Protestant as much as the non-Jew of his day. We should be as Jesus.
To which much is given, much is required.
Jesus never offered himself on condition, neither should we. He loves the Protestant as much as the non-Jew of his day. We should be as Jesus.
To which much is given, much is required.
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scylla
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Maybe this thread should be split up as it has gone into two different directions.
Sooner will probably come back later on and find his posts buried and we will be on another subject which will make a mess of the discussion.
So Sooner if you do come back maybe we can copy and paste our discussion and start a new thread.
Lets talk about, Catholicism the correct faith and the answers to the objections, evilkingln3 has brought up.
God Bless
Scylla
Sooner will probably come back later on and find his posts buried and we will be on another subject which will make a mess of the discussion.
So Sooner if you do come back maybe we can copy and paste our discussion and start a new thread.
Lets talk about, Catholicism the correct faith and the answers to the objections, evilkingln3 has brought up.
God Bless
Scylla
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