Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong?

[SteveVH]

A Prophet can not be Judged by our own limited human understanding. They must be Judged by Themselves and by Their own Words.

Do you believe that there are any false prophets out there, Tony? How, then, does one determine whether a particular “prophet” is a true prophet or a false prophet? Are we just to take their word for it?

The greatest Proof of Muhammad and the Koran is as evident today as Christianity and the Bible. IMHO

And what is this greatest proof?

To do this we must let go of any preconceived ideas and ask God for guidance.

Translated… forget everything you have been taught and listen to Baha’u’llah.

 

[tonyfish58]

Do you believe that there are any false prophets out there, Tony? How, then, does one determine whether a particular “prophet” is a true prophet or a false prophet? Are we just to take their word for it?

And what is this greatest proof?

Translated… forget everything you have been taught and listen to Baha’u’llah.

SteveVH - They are the greatest of all questions

The Bible is your guide to answer your question. I am sure you are well aware of the passages that tell you not to be deceived by a False Prophet and how to determine a True Prophet.

The funny thing is that it seems to take a few Centuries before this becomes more obvious. There are only a few that can behold the rising Sun, this has been the case in every religion to date that we know!

The Greatest Proof is the Prophet Themselves, after this we Have the Writings. Thus we Firstly must judge them by their own person and then by their writings.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person” Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh,

Does this mean you have to reconsider what you have previously learned? That may very well be the case!

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

.

. Does bin Laden represent Islam? No! No more than Columbus represented Christianity, leaving a trail of a 1/4 million dead Indians by the 4th visit, despite the crosses on his sails.

Comparing Bin Laden with Christoper Columbus? What are you saying really Daler?

MJ

 

[daler]

Comparing Bin Laden with Christoper Columbus? What are you saying really Daler?

MJ

Martin,
. Its about the perception of “mission” under the guise of “I’m doing this for God” or Allah, etc.
. Around 1992, after 500 years, there was much research which came to light about the trail of blood which followed Columbus wherever he went. Having grown up on a reservation among a conquered people subjected to Manifest Destiny where infinite lands were all taken by force or by treaties, hundreds of them, all broken, written “In the year of our Lord 1868” etc, I see definite parallels in the justification of slaughtering the heathens and infidels undertaken by each of these historical figures.

. Were we to judge Christianity according to the fruits of Columbus and Cortez, all would be repulsed from it. Like bin Laden, each is a distorted image in a Carnival mirror, very far from the original.

. Were we to have only one view of “Islam”, being for example the Taliban, how far from the truth would this be? If all we knew of “Christianity” was the KKK, it would be the same false perception.

. To judge fairly, we must look deeper. Much, much deeper.

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin,
. Its about the perception of “mission” under the guise of “I’m doing this for God” or Allah, etc.
. Around 1992, after 500 years, there was much research which came to light about the trail of blood which followed Columbus wherever he went. Having grown up on a reservation among a conquered people subjected to Manifest Destiny where infinite lands were all taken by force or by treaties, hundreds of them, all broken, written “In the year of our Lord 1868” etc, I see definite parallels in the justification of slaughtering the heathens and infidels undertaken by each of these historical figures.

. Were we to judge Christianity according to the fruits of Columbus and Cortez, all would be repulsed from it. Like bin Laden, each is a distorted image in a Carnival mirror, very far from the original.

. Were we to have only one view of “Islam”, being for example the Taliban, how far from the truth would this be? If all we knew of “Christianity” was the KKK, it would be the same false perception.

. To judge fairly, we must look deeper. Much, much deeper.

Errors of due to human weakness WILL always be made.

But as far as I am concerned Im focusing on the Truth. Jesus IS the WAY, the Truth and the Life. Islam is NOT.

MJ

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - They are the greatest of all questions

The Bible is your guide to answer your question. I am sure you are well aware of the passages that tell you not to be deceived by a False Prophet and how to determine a True Prophet.

That’s great, Tony, but my question was for you. I rely on the faith and teachings of my Church. On what do you rely?

The Greatest Proof is the Prophet Themselves, after this we Have the Writings. Thus we Firstly must judge them by their own person and then by their writings.

And what is it about Muhammad that you find impressive? Did he lead an exemplary life? Did he heal the sick and give sight to the blind? Did he command the wind and the sea?Did he forgive sins? Did he rise from the dead and appear to hundreds of witnesses?

Jesus is God incarnate. That’s hard to beat.

Does this mean you have to reconsider what you have previously learned? That may very well be the case!

Might this apply to you as well, in your current spiritual journey?

 

[MartinJordan]

And what is it about Muhammad that you find impressive? Did he lead an exemplary life? Did he heal the sick and give sight to the blind? Did he command the wind and the sea?
Did he forgive sins? Did he rise from the dead and appear to hundreds of witnesses?

Jesus is God incarnate. That’s hard to beat.

SteveVH, with Christ we have VICTORY over Death as well.

MJ

 

[daler]

Errors of due to human weakness WILL always be made.

But as far as I am concerned Im focusing on the Truth. Jesus IS the WAY, the Truth and the Life. Islam is NOT.

MJ

Martin,
. I fully agree that He Who says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.” is speaking the truth. But I see Him as being the One Who sends all of the Prophets. No man can come to God but through His Manifestations.

. Yet from my perspective, there remains no contradiction. I realize that may be difficult to understand, accept, or even contemplate. I came from a pretty similar background as yourself. Although not raised Catholic, but Methodist, we have very similar essential backgrounds.

. The man objections to Muhammad from Christians seem to lie in His assertion that

1. Allah alone is God, and that all Those Whom He sent, including Jesus, were Messengers of God, which is affirmed by Jesus’ own words:

. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

. No need to go around on the Trinity thing on this thread, I think we all understand the generally accepted assertion that Jesus was God incarnate from the Christian perspective. Just wanting to note that difference as one of the primaries.

1. The matter of the crucifixion, where certain translations of the Quran “appear” to deny that Christ was crucified, whereas in reality the rational understanding is that while the body and physical Person of Jesus was truly crucified, the One Who said “Before Abraham was, I am”, could never be put on a cross. How can you truthfully crucify “I am”? It cannot be done.
2. The violent defense of Islam during the lifetime and after the death of the Prophet Muhammad. Where is the justification of this in contrast to Jesus teachings of turn the other cheek, etc?

. As the last question appears so persistently in today’s climate, it helps to view it honestly in light of the numerous Holy Wars of the Old Testament, under David, etc, as well as the thousands of years of justified Holy Wars under Christendom.

. When the US and its allies go to war, in all of its history, the Name of God has been invoked. Whether fighting the British (who were also Christian), or the German Nazis (also Christian), to nuking the Japanese (mostly Shinto and Buddhist) and bombing Iraq and Afghanistan (mostly Muslims), or slaughtering all those Indians (who weren’t really Hindus) from the Atlantic to the Pacific and everywhere in between.

. Therefore, to dismiss any validity of Muslims slaying the infidels, saying: “You can’t do that!” must mean that there are no enemies so vile that one cannot defend themselves against by means of warfare. This assertion clearly leads to a double standard, for by whatever name, the enemy is always the infidel, heathen, commies, gooks, redskins, or whatever word allows us to dehumanize some portion of humanity and permit us to start pulling triggers and unleashing “the wrath of God” upon “them”.

. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Jesus Matthew 10:34

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin,
. I fully agree that He Who says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.” is speaking the truth. But I see Him as being the One Who sends all of the Prophets. No man can come to God but through His Manifestations.

. Yet from my perspective, there remains no contradiction. I realize that may be difficult to understand, accept, or even contemplate. I came from a pretty similar background as yourself. Although not raised Catholic, but Methodist, we have very similar essential backgrounds.

. The man objections to Muhammad from Christians seem to lie in His assertion that

1. Allah alone is God, and that all Those Whom He sent, including Jesus, were Messengers of God, which is affirmed by Jesus’ own words:

. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

. No need to go around on the Trinity thing on this thread, I think we all understand the generally accepted assertion that Jesus was God incarnate from the Christian perspective. Just wanting to note that difference as one of the primaries.

1. The matter of the crucifixion, where certain translations of the Quran “appear” to deny that Christ was crucified, whereas in reality the rational understanding is that while the body and physical Person of Jesus was truly crucified, the One Who said “Before Abraham was, I am”, could never be put on a cross. How can you truthfully crucify “I am”? It cannot be done.
2. The violent defense of Islam during the lifetime and after the death of the Prophet Muhammad. Where is the justification of this in contrast to Jesus teachings of turn the other cheek, etc?

. As the last question appears so persistently in today’s climate, it helps to view it honestly in light of the numerous Holy Wars of the Old Testament, under David, etc, as well as the thousands of years of justified Holy Wars under Christendom.

. When the US and its allies go to war, in all of its history, the Name of God has been invoked. Whether fighting the British (who were also Christian), or the German Nazis (also Christian), to nuking the Japanese (mostly Shinto and Buddhist) and bombing Iraq and Afghanistan (mostly Muslims), or slaughtering all those Indians (who weren’t really Hindus) from the Atlantic to the Pacific and everywhere in between.

. Therefore, to dismiss any validity of Muslims slaying the infidels, saying: “You can’t do that!” must mean that there are no enemies so vile that one cannot defend themselves against by means of warfare. This assertion clearly leads to a double standard, for by whatever name, the enemy is always the infidel, heathen, commies, gooks, redskins, or whatever word allows us to dehumanize some portion of humanity and permit us to start pulling triggers and unleashing “the wrath of God” upon “them”.

. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Jesus Matthew 10:34

Daler, you MUST understand Ive no issue against Muslims. They are human beings first and I am living (the past 45 years) where the region has more Muslims than any other Faith. Infact a Muslim saved my family’s life for which Im truly grateful.

You also need understand I do NOT accept a non-Christian Faith using our Bible and telling us who Jesus was, and what he MEANT. It is like an insult to our intelligence.

Sorry for being this harsh. Ive nothing against you and appreciate your candour.

MJ

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH, with Christ we have VICTORY over Death as well.

MJ

 

[SteveVH]

Martin,
. I fully agree that He Who says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.” is speaking the truth. But I see Him as being the One Who sends all of the Prophets. No man can come to God but through His Manifestations.

Unless God, himself, comes to him. And that is exactly what he did. That is why we are no longer in need of “prophets” subsequent to Jesus Christ.

 

[daler]

Daler, you MUST understand Ive no issue against Muslims. They are human beings first and I am living (the past 45 years) where the region has more Muslims than any other Faith. Infact a Muslim saved my family’s life for which Im truly grateful.

You also need understand I do NOT accept a non-Christian Faith using our Bible and telling us who Jesus was, and what he MEANT. It is like an insult to our intelligence.

Sorry for being this harsh. Ive nothing against you and appreciate your candour.

MJ

Martin,
. Sincerely apologize for any offense to you. None was intended, and I don’t know how it is an insult to your intelligence ?? for I believe in the Bible, honor it, revere it as a Holy Book, but have a few different understandings of it.
. As pertaining to discussion, I don’t know how I can participate if that which proves Islam from Biblical verses is disallowed. Just trying to view how clearly to me these gears are in the same transmission, fit perfectly, but are ground a bit due to people not aware of how they shifter works going from one gear to the next, and back again.
. Its like we all can see how the first gear of Judaism meshes easily with the second gear of Christianity (although the Jewish people may deny this), and from my perspective (and others), third gear is definitely Islam. Is there a “Fear of Shifting” thing here?
. I can point to the owner’s manuals and offer a few proofs, but if “you can’t handle the proof”, then maybe its best I opt out of the thread. Let me know, for all I wish is that there be mutual appreciation based upon knowledge shared, if allowed in something other than a Kangaroo Court. No offense, but is it?

 

[JohntheBeloved3]

I wouldn’t say Islam is wrong, just that our Church disagrees with it in certain major areas
We should love and respect all of God’s children, Catholic or otherwise. I am not a Muslim, but I do think that dialogue with other faiths will help us build bridges of understanding, and we might even learn a thing or two.

 

[doormouse73]

Unless God, himself, comes to him. And that is exactly what he did. That is why we are no longer in need of “prophets” subsequent to Jesus Christ.

SteveVH;

after pages upon pages with you and others talking to the bahais on this site,this is were they seem to throw a deaf un.

simply because God is the holy trinity…

God
Jesus
Holy spirit = One God the Father Almighty.

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin,
. Sincerely apologize for any offense to you. None was intended, and I don’t know how it is an insult to your intelligence ?? for I believe in the Bible, honor it, revere it as a Holy Book, but have a few different understandings of it.

I appreciate your apology. The idea that you honor the Bible is a nice sentiment, but doesn’t work in Islam theology as Islam says “God cannot have a son” (SIC). Whereas the New Testament God does have a Begotten Son and he walked on earth. You will also not get much mileage that you defend Mohammed as prophet and preach this idea in a Muslim country and hold a different belief of Islam at the same time.

. As pertaining to discussion, I don’t know how I can participate if that which proves Islam from Biblical verses is disallowed. Just trying to view how clearly to me these gears are in the same transmission, fit perfectly, but are ground a bit due to people not aware of how they shifter works going from one gear to the next, and back again.

See what mileage you get talking like this in a Muslim country. Either you will be ostracized or worse…

. Its like we all can see how the first gear of Judaism meshes easily with the second gear of Christianity (although the Jewish people may deny this), and from my perspective (and others), third gear is definitely Islam.

Jews disregard Jesus. It doesn’t work the way you think (come to think of it ask a Jew here and see the mileage you get with your idealogy). Jews also felt that Jesus was a blasphemer back in the day and that He must die.

Today’s Jews DO NOT really bother with what Jesus said. While Islam deny Jesus is the Son of God, they find it a thorn in their beliefs that Christians wholeheartedly takes Jesus as God Incarnate. Jews simply deny Jesus’ authenticity and move on. Islam can’t let go.

Islam is certainly is a gear, R!

Is there a “Fear of Shifting” thing here?
. I can point to the owner’s manuals and offer a few proofs, but if “you can’t handle the proof”, then maybe its best I opt out of the thread. Let me know, for all I wish is that there be mutual appreciation based upon knowledge shared, if allowed in something other than a Kangaroo Court. No offense, but is it?

Its got nothing to do with court. This is a discussion forum and clearly some people have a ideology that Christians don’t know their own Faith? I think it’s unfocused. Blessed are the Pure in Heart (totally focused on Christ).

What do you mean by Fear of Shifting? As a Catholic Ive nothing to fear as long as I have Faith in the Risen Christ (of course I could lose my salvation but I hope that I can be like St. Paul to say "I fought the good fight. I have run the race I have KEPT THE FAITH (and not be middle of the fence so to speak, at the end of my life

Im focused on Christ and I pray that I would be found WORTHY in God’s eyes.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

So, Martin, you are trying to say that a Muslim country today, is an accurate representation of the Islam of Muhammad??

Come on mate. Yes, this viewpoint will be ostracized in a Muslim country. Of course it will.

There are very few Muslims leaders today who have a clue about what Islam truly means. They put no bearing at all on the “climate” of Muhammads Revelation, and they are “exclusivistic” just like Christians.

God knows best. Very apt words by Muslims, and yes God is not an exclusivist

 

[MartinJordan]

So, Martin, you are trying to say that a Muslim country today, is an accurate representation of the Islam of Muhammad??

It’s got nothing to do with niceties or atrocities. Its about what Islam considers as truth and not truth.

Come on mate. Yes, this viewpoint will be ostracized in a Muslim country. Of course it will.

See above.

There are very few Muslims leaders today who have a clue about what Islam truly means. They put no bearing at all on the “climate” of Muhammads Revelation, and they are “exclusivistic” just like Christians.

I speak for Catholics. We have the Fullness of Truth. It’ll be naive for us to think this has anything to do with exclusivity. Christ died for all. Period.

God knows best. Very apt words by Muslims, and yes God is not an exclusivist

God Knows best isn’t a proper excuse or Theology…imo ofcourse.

MJ

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH;

after pages upon pages with you and others talking to the bahais on this site,this is were they seem to throw a deaf un.

simply because God is the holy trinity…

God
Jesus
Holy spirit = One God the Father Almighty.

Yes. That God became incarnate and dwelt among us is rejected. But this makes sense. The Baha’i faith is primarily a Muslim offshoot and, from what I can tell, the Quran supersedes the Bible from their point of view. Besides, anything that doesn’t jell with their story is either going to be ignored or interpreted in such a manner as to force it to jell.

 

[daler]

I appreciate your apology. The idea that you honor the Bible is a nice sentiment, but doesn’t work in Islam theology as Islam says “God cannot have a son”…
. See what mileage you get talking like this in a Muslim country. Either you will be ostracized or worse…
. Today’s Jews DO NOT really bother with what Jesus said. While Islam deny Jesus is the Son of God, they find it a thorn in their beliefs that Christians wholeheartedly takes Jesus as God Incarnate. Jews simply deny Jesus’ authenticity and move on. Islam can’t let go.

. Islam is certainly is a gear, R!

. Its got nothing to do with court. This is a discussion forum and clearly some people have a ideology that Christians don’t know their own Faith? I think it’s unfocused. Blessed are the Pure in Heart (totally focused on Christ).

What do you mean by Fear of Shifting? As a Catholic Ive nothing to fear as long as I have Faith in the Risen Christ (of course I could lose my salvation but I hope that I can be like St. Paul to say "I fought the good fight. I have run the race I have KEPT THE FAITH (and not be middle of the fence so to speak, at the end of my life

Im focused on Christ and I pray that I would be found WORTHY in God’s eyes.

MJ

Martin,
. You know there is a funny thing about talking religion, with anyone. It brings stuff out of us. Thanks be to God, Allah, and the Great Spirit (Is this a Trinity thing… that mostly people don’t physically do battle anymore, although you are quite right, it would be very hard to have these kinds of open conversations in some Muslim countries.

. That is what is so ironic. As a Baha’i, or from the Baha’i perspective, I’ve found myself defending not only Islam against Christians who are upset with it, but Catholicism from angry Adventists or Mennonites, and Christianity to Jews. As fanatic Muslims hate the Baha’is, and my children’s mother came from Iran, where her aunt and cousins were imprisoned, and might be related to the recent Baha’i murdered for his Faith last August, it is an odd position to be in, isn’t it.

. Servant has a point. Do the current leaders of Islam really know their Faith? Is Faith something that changes over time, like a tree which has a certain lifespan, then withers, giving way to a new tree growing up out of the midst of its decaying branches?

. Steve incorrectly describes the Baha’i Faith as an offshoot of Islam, which is like reducing Christianity to an offshoot of Judaism. The view is rather that religion “is” renewed, just like the seeds of a plant, in a new Spiritual Springtime.

. From the typical Christian perspective, there is a flow from Adam through Christ, with all of the Prophets in between. Islam just thinks there was one more Prophet in that line. Baha’is think there have been a couple more.

 

[daler]

Yes. That God became incarnate and dwelt among us is rejected. But this makes sense. The Baha’i faith is primarily a Muslim offshoot and, from what I can tell, the Quran supersedes the Bible from their point of view. Besides, anything that doesn’t jell with their story is either going to be ignored or interpreted in such a manner as to force it to jell.

Steve, dear friend,
. Is Christianity primarily a Jewish offshoot? What would you say to someone who says that?

. Each successive major Manifestation, or Prophet, has succeeded the previous One. Abraham succeeded Noah. Moses superseded Abraham. Jesus superseded Moses, etc.

. It is not necessarily a disconnect. Just when people choose to view it that way. Jello “jells” all by itself. Nobody has to make it jell. If its really Jello, it will “jell”. (Bill Cosby told me that years ago…

.