Why is disbelief a sin?

[Hitetlen]

Thal59:

And this is because you keep judging God according to your own personal standards.

I judge the human concept you call God by human standards. There are no other standards. I said that if there would be a being you call God, and that being would have the characteristics you assigned to him I would properly call him a tyrant. I don’t call “God” anything. I am criticizing the human concept of a “God”, for being inconsistent.

Thal59:

Regarding the text in red, please offer a link to an authorized site that will prove this claim.

It was on 60 minutes a few years ago. The behaviour is even more astonishing, because Brazil is very Catholic country.

 

[doomhammer]

Magicsilence:

You are an intellectual being.

just like all of us…

”The distinction which Modernists make between science and faith leads to the same conclusion. The object of science, they say, is the reality of the knowable; the object of faith, on the contrary, is the reality of the unknowable. Now, what makes the unknowable unknowable is the fact that there is no proportion between its object and the intellect - a defect of proportion which nothing whatever, even in the doctrine of the Modernist, can suppress. Hence the unknowable remains and will eternally remain unknowable to the believer as well as to the philosopher. Therefore if any religion at all is possible, it can only be the religion of an unknowable reality. And why this might not be that soul of the universe, of which certain rationalists speak, is something which certainly does not seem to Us apparent. These reasons suffice to show superabundantly by how many roads Modernism leads to atheism and to the annihilation of all religion. The error of Protestantism made the first step on this path; that of Modernism makes the second; atheism makes the next.
To penetrate still deeper into the meaning of Modernism and to find a suitable remedy for so deep a sore, it behooves Us, Venerable Brethren, to investigate the causes which have engendered it and which foster its growth. That the proximate and immediate cause consists in an error of the mind cannot be open to doubt. We recognize that the remote causes may be reduced to two: curiosity and pride. Curiosity by itself, if not prudently regulated, suffices to account for all errors. Such is the opinion of Our predecessor, Gregory XVI, who wrote: “A lamentable spectacle is that presented by the aberrations of human reason when it yields to the spirit of novelty, when against the warning of the Apostle it seeks to know beyond what it is meant to know, and when relying too much on itself it thinks it can find the truth outside the Catholic Church wherein truth is found without the slightest shadow of error.”
But it is pride which exercises an incomparably greater sway over the soul to blind it and lead it into error, and pride sits in Modernism as in its own house, finding sustenance everywhere in its doctrines and lurking in its every aspect. It is pride which fills Modernists with that self-assurance by which they consider themselves and pose as the rule for all. It is pride which puffs them up with that vainglory which allows them to regard themselves as the sole possessors of knowledge, and makes them say, elated and inflated with presumption, “We are not as the rest of men,” and which, lest they should seem as other men, leads them to embrace and to devise novelties even of the most absurd kind. It is pride which rouses in them the spirit of disobedience and causes them to demand a compromise between authority and liberty. It is owing to their pride that they seek to be the reformers of others while they forget to reform themselves, and that they are found to be utterly wanting in respect for authority, even for the supreme authority. Truly there is no road which leads so directly and so quickly to Modernism as pride.” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, St. Pius X, September 8, 1907

 

[doomhammer]

Hitetlen:

I enjoy the company of nice people

“my capabilities are far higher than average - even though I say it myself. (Yes, pride is one of the deadly sins… so be it.)” Hitleten From the thread “Free will revisited” post # 157

“It is pride which puffs them up with that vainglory which allows them to regard themselves as the sole possessors of knowledge, and makes them say, elated and inflated with presumption, “We are not as the rest of men,”” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, St. Pius X, September 8, 1907

”Nothing is new under the sun.” Ecc. 1, 9

 

[Leon_Miguel]

Hello Hitetlen

I see from your previous posts that you like facts and data that you can observe directly. Have you considered any of the recent claims of public miracles?

Here is a link to one such event www.livingmiracles.net/Myrna.html

The church takes a very cautious approach to such claims and of course not all claims of miracles stand up to scrutiny. However this one has been running for a long period of time, has a large number of witness (including “hostile” witnesses such as the police), produces physical signs in large quantities (ie the oil is produced in cupfuls so it can’t just be chemicals from the icon or its frame for example) and also occurs in other locations when the woman travels.

I know that atheists often argue as to why God would appear in this way rather than solving bigger problems but my main focus at the moment is do these events require a supernatural intervention?

Regards

 

[Hitetlen]

That the proximate and immediate cause consists in an error of the mind cannot be open to doubt. We recognize that the remote causes may be reduced to two: curiosity and pride. Curiosity by itself, if not prudently regulated, suffices to account for all errors. Such is the opinion of Our predecessor, Gregory XVI, who wrote: “A lamentable spectacle is that presented by the aberrations of human reason when it yields to the spirit of novelty, when against the warning of the Apostle it seeks to know beyond what it is meant to know, and when relying too much on itself it thinks it can find the truth outside the Catholic Church wherein truth is found without the slightest shadow of error.”

I don’t know if you will be happy with this, but I have to thank you for this post. It expresses is no uncertain terms the hostility of the Church toward “curiosity”, which is the driving force behind science. The translated meaning of what the Church says: “be content with what we tell you, do not seek novelties, stay dumb and ignorant so we can exercise our power over you”.

doomhammer:

But it is pride which exercises an incomparably greater sway over the soul to blind it and lead it into error, and pride sits in Modernism as in its own house, finding sustenance everywhere in its doctrines and lurking in its every aspect. It is pride which fills Modernists with that self-assurance by which they consider themselves and pose as the rule for all. It is pride which puffs them up with that vainglory which allows them to regard themselves as the sole possessors of knowledge, and makes them say, elated and inflated with presumption, “We are not as the rest of men,” and which, lest they should seem as other men, leads them to embrace and to devise novelties even of the most absurd kind. It is pride which rouses in them the spirit of disobedience and causes them to demand a compromise between authority and liberty. It is owing to their pride that they seek to be the reformers of others while they forget to reform themselves, and that they are found to be utterly wanting in respect for authority, even for the supreme authority. Truly there is no road which leads so directly and so quickly to Modernism as pride.” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, St. Pius X, September 8, 1907

And this is hardly news, the hostility of the Church toward pride is the most insidious attack on humanity. Obviously the Church recognizes that people who are comfortable with themselves, who do not view themselves as despicable sinners, are not subject to their power. In a sense, it is the work of a genius, to gain control over others by not expressly using force over them; rather destroying their self-esteem. If it were not so horrible, it would be something to admire.

I could not have said it any better than the Pope did. Again, thank you.

 

[Hitetlen]

Leon Miguel:

Hello Hitetlen

I see from your previous posts that you like facts and data that you can observe directly. Have you considered any of the recent claims of public miracles?

Here is a link to one such event

The church takes a very cautious approach to such claims and of course not all claims of miracles stand up to scrutiny. However this one has been running for a long period of time, has a large number of witness (including “hostile” witnesses such as the police), produces physical signs in large quantities (ie the oil is produced in cupfuls so it can’t just be chemicals from the icon or its frame for example) and also occurs in other locations when the woman travels.

I know that atheists often argue as to why God would appear in this way rather than solving bigger problems but my main focus at the moment is do these events require a supernatural intervention?

Regards

I don’t know about this specific “miracle”, but I know that in every instance when a professional stage-magician is around, he can always detect the trickery, if there is one. You say that “hostile” witnesses were around. The police is very ill-equipped with dealing such phenomena. If and when a professional and atheist magician checks out a miracle, and stays baffled by it, I will start to take it seriously. I am not trained to deal with trickery, so I just use Occam’s razor.

 

[doomhammer]

Leon Miguel:

Hello Hitetlen
I see from your previous posts that you like facts and data that you can observe directly. Have you considered any of the recent claims of public miracles?
I know that atheists often argue as to why God would appear in this way rather than solving bigger problems but my main focus at the moment is do these events require a supernatural intervention?

“Although, therefore, the standing miracle of this visible world is little thought of, because always before us, yet, when we arouse ourselves to contemplate it, it is a greater miracle than the rarest and most unheard-of marvels. For man himself is a greater miracle than any miracle done through his instrumentality.”

St. Augustine De Civit. Dei

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

I don’t know if you will be happy with this, but I have to thank you for this post. It expresses is no uncertain terms the hostility of the Church toward “curiosity”, which is the driving force behind science.

You actually think curiosity is good? On the contrary, it is the vice that leads one astray from the truth. It is unregulated studiousness.

Hitetlen:

The translated meaning of what the Church says: “be content with what we tell you, do not seek novelties, stay dumb and ignorant so we can exercise our power over you”.

I don’t think it is for us to stay dumb and ignorant of truth, but to stay ignorant of evil. For our actions come from our thoughts.

As for exercising their power over us, that is precisely what I desire! I welcome the kingship and of Christ and His Church over me! He is so worthy of honor and praise and even more - worship and adoration.

Hitetlen:

And this is hardly news, the hostility of the Church toward pride is the most insidious attack on humanity.

What? You actually think pride is good? On the contrary, it is the source of all the vices. And it comes from desire to be highly regarded, which itself comes from… selfishness.

Hitetlen:

Obviously the Church recognizes that people who are comfortable with themselves, who do not view themselves as despicable sinners, are not subject to their power.

Truly, Jesus said He came for sinners only.

However, when He returns, He will destroy His enemies.

Hitetlen:

In a sense, it is the work of a genius, to gain control over others by not expressly using force over them; rather destroying their self-esteem. If it were not so horrible, it would be something to admire.

Yes, He came to destroy the work of the devil - pride. But He is meek and mild to the humble. He lowered Himself to us - is it too much for Him to expect us to lower ourselves also? And in lowering ourselves, we become eligible for His mercy.

Far from being horrible, for us it is beauitful, for it is our salvation.

It is only horrible to the damned, for it causes greater reproach to them. Indeed, the Blessed Virgin Mary crushes the head of the Serpent. She is horrible indeed to the evil spirit, who can not stand humility and obedience, which crush his pride.

Hitetlen:

I could not have said it any better than the Pope did. Again, thank you.

Yes, thank you doomhammer for the great quotes. It has truly revealed where Hitetlen stands. Unfortunately, he has chosen the other side. Are we not in the last days? We are being called to choose sides.

Blessed be God for the freedom He has given us all to choose our path, and especially for letting us choose to honor Him and imitate Him and serve Him. For no one in heaven was forced to go there, and no one in hell is there except by his own choice. For though they do not like to be punished, they prefer it to having to bow down humbly before their Creator, for they have chosen to serve their own nature. And God will not change their mind for them, for He is a great God and does not need that we should give Him anything. Instead, we are needy before Him.

Hitetlen, do you prefer to join the proud in their abode, hell, and curse God forever for what are perceived to be injustices? But I would like to see you receive God’s mercy, considering that you might be deceived by the enemy and perhaps willing to respond differently if you knew the greater truth. Yet, such mercy will be of no avail to one who in his pride sees no need for it …

Only one who sees the need for rescue will appreciate a rescuer. Only one who recognizes their guilt sees the need for pardon. Pride sees these as tricks designed to take away its pride. Indeed, it is opposed to pride. But it is no trick, it is quite openly opposed to pride. That is, pride in one’s own nature. We should rather place our pride in our Creator and serve Him for His greater glory. Buy “stock” in the Creator, and promote Him - then the value of your stock will go up. He does the hard work for us and gives us peace. But the proud who rely on themselves will be under a harsh taskmaster, or be one to others.

hurst

 

[doomhammer]

Hitetlen:

I could not have said it any better than the Pope did. Again, thank you.

“These reasons suffice to show superabundantly by how many roads Modernism leads to atheism and to the annihilation of all religion. The error of Protestantism made the first step on this path; that of Modernism makes the second; atheism makes the next.” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, St. Pius X, September 8, 1907

It is as the Pope teaches: atheism is the last stop of Protestantism…
And you are the perfect example, and you are devilishly proud of this…

“I was raised as Calvinist (Presbyterian)… Only later did I start to really think for myself (at least the discipline of philosophy) and realized how unacceptable the religious worldview is. I am a libertarian.”

Thank God we have Popes as St. Pius X. A saint, a true Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 7, 13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.”

 

[doomhammer]

hurst:

It has truly revealed where Hitetlen stands. Unfortunately, he has chosen the other side. Are we not in the last days? We are being called to choose sides.
Blessed be God for the freedom He has given us all to choose our path, and especially for letting us choose to honor Him and imitate Him and serve Him. For no one in heaven was forced to go there, and no one in hell is there except by his own choice. For though they do not like to be punished, they prefer it to having to bow down humbly before their Creator, for they have chosen to serve their own nature. And God will not change their mind for them, for He is a great God and does not need that we should give Him anything. Instead, we are needy before Him.
Hitetlen, do you prefer to join the proud in their abode, hell, and curse God forever for what are perceived to be injustices? But I would like to see you receive God’s mercy, considering that you might be deceived by the enemy and perhaps willing to respond differently if you knew the greater truth. Yet, such mercy will be of no avail to one who in his pride sees no need for it …
Only one who sees the need for rescue will appreciate a rescuer. Only one who recognizes their guilt sees the need for pardon. Pride sees these as tricks designed to take away its pride. Indeed, it is opposed to pride. But it is no trick, it is quite openly opposed to pride. That is, pride in one’s own nature. We should rather place our pride in our Creator and serve Him for His greater glory. Buy “stock” in the Creator, and promote Him - then the value of your stock will go up. He does the hard work for us and gives us peace. But the proud who rely on themselves will be under a harsh taskmaster, or be one to others.

I have to thank you for your wonderful words full of prophecy and zeal.

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

You actually think curiosity is good? On the contrary, it is the vice that leads one astray from the truth. It is unregulated studiousness.

Every child is curious, they want to learn, discover and grow their knowledge. It is built into our genes.

hurst:

As for exercising their power over us, that is precisely what I desire! I welcome the kingship and of Christ and His Church over me! He is so worthy of honor and praise and even more - worship and adoration.

None is so deep in prison than the one who does not even wish to leave it, even though the door is wide open.

hurst:

What? You actually think pride is good? On the contrary, it is the source of all the vices. And it comes from desire to be highly regarded, which itself comes from… selfishness.

What a distorted view! Being justifiably proud of one’s accomplishment is natural and desirable.

hurst:

Truly, Jesus said He came for sinners only. However, when He returns, He will destroy His enemies.

Don’t hold your breath…

You certainly reinforced everything I said, and then multiplied it a hundredfold.

 

[Leon_Miguel]

Hitetlen:

If and when a professional and atheist magician checks out a miracle, and stays baffled by it, I will start to take it seriously. I am not trained to deal with trickery, so I just use Occam’s razor.

“Fred Anderson, news commentator for Channel 7, interviewed her. He not only saw the oil come from her hands and the picture but witnessed the ecstasy of August 14, 1988. Anderson brought a specialist in magic with him to see if he could find any tricks. He did not” unitypublishing.com/damascus.html

The best a magician can provide is “I can replicate these effects by using this technique” but even if they are able to replicate a certain phenomenom it still does not prove that the original is trickery.

Do you consider the testimony of medical and chemical experts to be valid in this situation? Does the expert really need to be an atheist? A professional scientist should and must examine each case based on its evidence and be open to whatever conclusions the data point to regardless of their beliefs.

 

[Hitetlen]

“Fred Anderson, news commentator for Channel 7, interviewed her. He not only saw the oil come from her hands and the picture but witnessed the ecstasy of August 14, 1988. Anderson brought a specialist in magic with him to see if he could find any tricks. He did not”

The best a magician can provide is “I can replicate these effects by using this technique” but even if they are able to replicate a certain phenomenom it still does not prove that the original is trickery.

Do you consider the testimony of medical and chemical experts to be valid in this situation? Does the expert really need to be an atheist? A professional scientist should and must examine each case based on its evidence and be open to whatever conclusions the data point to regardless of their beliefs.

Unfortunately that is not the case. I would not call upon a magician to render judgment about a medical condition, just like a physician is not qualified to render judgment about a possible trickery.

While it is true that “just because it can be replicated by everyday means” does not prove conclusively that the phenomenon was produced by those means alone, it makes the whole process highly suspicious. If the magician is allowed to examine the actual phenomenon, he is the one who is best qualified to spot a possible trickery. They are not taken in by the deceptive misdirections.

James “the Amazing” Randi once was called upon a case where a young girl supposedly was able to read books with her fingers, while heavily blindfolded. She was performing in churches, and it was widely regarded as a miracle. Her blindfold was arranged in a manner, that was supposed to be able to preclude the chance that she could peek at the books. People not trained in stage magic were baffled.

The professinal magician was not. He simply laid down on the floor, looked up and saw that she was able to peek down in the very narrow channel formed by her nose and the blindfold. It is impossible to apply a cloth preventing that, unless the whole nose is covered, and in that case she would not have had the chance to breathe. Well, so far it was just an everyday charlatan exposed. The funny part comes now.

The believers (and the parents among them) were very depressed at the unmasking (pun intended) of the girl. They wanted to believe in the miracle. And when people desperately want to believe in something, their critical skills are at their lowest. That is why a skeptic is needed to investitage these claims.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

Every child is curious, they want to learn, discover and grow their knowledge. It is built into our genes.

It is also a folly that has to be disciplined.

Hitetlen:

None is so deep in prison than the one who does not even wish to leave it, even though the door is wide open.

Not only that, but I am digging deeper to be even more entrenched in His grasp, even more clothed in His Truth, even more intimate in His embrace.

Meanwhile, you also are in a prison, but the door is shut. We talk through some kind of temporary opening, but you are unable to leave - even by your own admission, wherein you say you can’t choose to believe. But though I tell you there is a Savior, you not only do not believe it, but you ridicule it. What can I say? You have openly declared that you are satisfied with your natural life, and that you want your reward in this life.

As for me, I desire more, and in seeking it, I have been given a taste of it. I have learned that to be more filled with it, I must die more to my own selfishness and entrust myself to another. This presupposes there is a supreme being worthy of my trust and love and obedience. And since I am actually able to make such an act, I have deemed it just to give that act to the one it belongs to.

Hitetlen:

What a distorted view! Being justifiably proud of one’s accomplishment is natural and desirable.

On the contrary, it is deceptive because it blinds you from seeing your faults. It presumes, even, that you can’t make any. It tends to resist being grateful for help, and even to refuse any help. It ends up causing division.

Hitetlen:

Don’t hold your breath…

If we die before He returns to earth, then we will nevertheless meet Him upon our death.

Hitetlen:

You certainly reinforced everything I said, and then multiplied it a hundredfold.

Yes. Lines are being drawn. Notice how no one seems to be forcing us… but like the ant and the grasshopper, the one who believes is the one who prepares.

hurst

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

It is also a folly that has to be disciplined.

I sure am glad that you were not my parent. They certainly did not try to beat the curiosity out of me. As the Bible says, “do not spare the rod” - well fortunately they did not accept that particular idea.

hurst:

Meanwhile, you also are in a prison, but the door is shut. We talk through some kind of temporary opening, but you are unable to leave - even by your own admission, wherein you say you can’t choose to believe.

You accept your prison, but I don’t. I am on the lookout, knowing full well, that my world view MAY be false, but so far I see no evidence to the contrary. I am willing to bang my head against the wall, but it just is not there.

hurst:

But though I tell you there is a Savior, you not only do not believe it, but you ridicule it. What can I say?

Yes, you tell me, but there is nothing else, but your word. Besides, I am NOT ridiculing your savior, I am ridiculing the human concept, you call savior. (There is one thing I cannot understand. The “savior” as you call it, created the “hell” you must be saved from. He created you to be fallible, knowing full well, that you cannot live up to his expectations. This reminds me of a builder, who deliberately crates faulty products, and then “punishes” those products, because they are faulty. This is your world-view, and I call it impossible.)

hurst:

You have openly declared that you are satisfied with your natural life, and that you want your reward in this life.

Absolutely. I know that this life is real, I make my contribution in this life, I want my rewards, here and now, where I know I can enjoy it.

hurst:

On the contrary, it is deceptive because it blinds you from seeing your faults. It presumes, even, that you can’t make any. It tends to resist being grateful for help, and even to refuse any help. It ends up causing division.

Why would it? I know that I did not wantonly squandered my life, I tried to educate myself and others. The capabilities I inherinted from my parents I used to their fullest, and I take pride in my achievements. That does not preclude to understand that there are always other new possibilities on the road.

hurst:

If we die before He returns to earth, then we will nevertheless meet Him upon our death.

That remains to be seen, doesn’t it?

 

[doomhammer]

(There is one thing I cannot understand. The “savior” as you call it, created the “hell” you must be saved from. He created you to be fallible, knowing full well, that you cannot live up to his expectations. This reminds me of a builder, who deliberately crates faulty products, and then “punishes” those products, because they are faulty. This is your world-view, and I call it impossible.)

“EVERY man naturally desires knowledge; but what good is knowledge without fear of God? Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars. He who knows himself well becomes mean in his own eyes and is not happy when praised by men.
If you think you know many things and understand them well enough, realize at the same time that there is much you do not know. Hence, do not affect wisdom, but admit your ignorance.
If you wish to learn and appreciate something worth while, then love to be unknown and considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel.
How many there are who perish because of vain worldly knowledge and too little care for serving God. They became vain in their own conceits because they chose to be great rather than humble.
VAIN is the man who puts his trust in men, in created things.
How foolish and faithless of heart are those who are so engrossed in earthly things as to relish nothing but what is carnal! Miserable men indeed, for in the end they will see to their sorrow how cheap and worthless was the thing they loved.
Every vice will have its own proper punishment. The proud will be faced with every confusion.
All is vanity, therefore, except to love God and to serve Him alone.
But beware of vain complacency and pride. For many are led into error through these faults and sometimes fall into almost perpetual blindness. Let the fall of these, who proudly presume on self, be a warning to you and a constant incentive to humility.
YOU thunder forth Your judgments over me, Lord. You shake all my bones with fear and trembling, and my soul is very much afraid. I stand in awe as I consider that the heavens are not pure in Your sight. If You found wickedness in the angels and did not spare them, what will become of me? Stars have fallen from heaven, and I -I who am but dust- how can I be presumptuous?
In what, therefore, can I glory, and how can I wish to be highly regarded? Is it because I am nothing? This, too, is utterly vain. Indeed, the greatest vanity is the evil plague of empty self-glory, because it draws one away from true glory and robs one of heavenly grace.
All human glory, all temporal honor, all worldly position is truly vanity and foolishness compared to Your everlasting glory.
Grant me, O Lord, the grace to know what should be known, to praise what is most pleasing to You, to esteem that which appears most precious to You, and to abhor what is unclean in Your sight.
He is truly great who has great charity. He is truly great who is little in his own eyes and makes nothing of the highest honor. He is truly wise who looks upon all earthly things as folly that he may gain Christ. He who does God’s will and renounces his own is truly very learned.
He who loves God with all his heart does not fear death or punishment or judgment or hell, because perfect love assures access to God.
O sweet and joyful service of God, which makes man truly free and holy!
O service to be embraced and always desired, in which the highest good is offered and joy is won which shall remain forever!
O immeasurable weight! O impassable sea, where I find myself to be nothing but bare nothingness! Where, then, is glory’s hiding place? Where can there be any trust in my own virtue? All vainglory is swallowed up in the depths of Your judgments upon me.
Let it not overcome me, my God. Let not flesh and blood conquer me. Let not the world and its brief glory deceive me, nor the devil trip me by his craftiness. Give me courage to resist, patience to endure, and constancy to persevere.”
Kempis (1380-1471)

 

[FCEGM]

Hitetlen:

. . .Yes, you tell me, but there is nothing else, but your word. Besides, I am NOT ridiculing your savior, I am ridiculing the human concept, you call savior. (There is one thing I cannot understand. The “savior” as you call it, created the “hell” you must be saved from. He created you to be fallible, knowing full well, that you cannot live up to his expectations. This reminds me of a builder, who deliberately crates faulty products, and then “punishes” those products, because they are faulty. This is your world-view, and I call it impossible. . .

Actually it is man who “creates” Hell - God simply allows him to be where one without divine love is most at home. Further, God does not stop loving those in Hell. A priest I know described Hell (and I believe he was quoting from some Saint) as God’s love experienced as fire; i.e., there is nothing of those spirits of the damned that can correspond and respond to love, and so God’s overwhelming love must necessarily be experienced as eternal fire and torment. Perhaps another way to express this is to consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one has to himself become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do.

This last answers your objection about our inability to “live up to” God’s expectations. It is precisely in the Savior that we are absolutely able to do this; transformed into other Christs by divine love the saved - unlike the damned - are made able to enter into that divine fire of God’s Presence because He, in the Divine Person of His Son, has given us through His Church the means by which our lives are changed so as to be all that God has created us to be (He does it far better than the Army ). In Him nothing is impossible - even the transformation of fallen man into true images of the Divine Image of the Son.

You have set your sights way to low.

 

[Hitetlen]

FCEGM:

Actually it is man who “creates” Hell - God simply allows him to be where one without divine love is most at home.

Is there no limit to squabbling and whitewashing? Hell was created God (according to the Bible); not humans. Allegedly God created this place for the angels who rebelled against him, way before humanity came onto the scene (otherwise how could have Satan tempted them in the Garden of Eden?). And then he used this place to punish those humans who dare to use their God given intellect and want proper evidence for such a story, while Satan is given a free ride to continue his work. Some justice, indeed…

FCEGM:

Further, God does not stop loving those in Hell. A priest I know described Hell…

If only he had brought back a video from his guided tour…

FCEGM:

This last answers your objection about our inability to “live up to” God’s expectations. It is precisely in the Savior that we are absolutely able to do this; transformed into other Christs by divine love the saved - unlike the damned - are made able to enter into that divine fire of God’s Presence because He, in the Divine Person of His Son, has given us through His Church the means by which our lives are changed so as to be all that God has created us to be (He does it far better than the Army ). In Him nothing is impossible - even the transformation of fallen man into true images of the Divine Image of the Son.

Oh, brother. I saw a bumper sticker once, which said: “Christians are not perfect, they are just forgiven”. I probably never saw a more arrogant one.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

Yes, you tell me, but there is nothing else, but your word.

But it is enough for you to have heard about the notion in order to decide to pursue an investigation of your own on the matter.

Hitetlen:

(There is one thing I cannot understand. The “savior” as you call it, created the “hell” you must be saved from.

He created it for the evil spirits. And we are saved from these evil spirits because God casts them into hell and protects us. But if we also rebel, then we too, shall go there to be subject to the evil spirits whom we chose to agree with.

But with God there is forgiveness, so He saved us from our sins so that we may with freedom choose to return to Him and stay of our own accord.

This is not a cat-in-the-hat situation whereby a solution is sold for resolving a problem that he caused to begin with. You seem to latch on to such demeaning scenarios so easily as if no one else were aware of them. Are you any better than Eve who readily believed the insinuations of the Serpent against God?

Hitetlen:

He created you to be fallible, knowing full well, that you cannot live up to his expectations.

He created us in grace (Adam and Eve), and they had the ability to live up to the obedience imposed on them regarding the tree of knowledge. But they decided to believe the evil spirit, who said God was just trying to hold them back. Thus, they fell by their own fault. They were punished because they knew better and were able to obey. They just decided not to. Sort of like how you decide not to, even though you are able to understand what we are called to do. But you believe the same notions that the evil spirits are insinuating against God - that He supposedly isn’t really Just.

Hitetlen:

This reminds me of a builder, who deliberately crates faulty products, and then “punishes” those products, because they are faulty. This is your world-view, and I call it impossible.)

See how you judge God by your own notions as if you had enough knowledge to make such a judgment? It is for this false judgment, judging the eternal being based on your finite knowledge, judging yourself as more worthy of being heeded, that you will be given justice in the form of punishment.

Even fellow humans can see your hypocrisy: you condemn God for his supposed lack of justice based on your incomplete view, whereas you exclude yourself from your own judgment; but are you totally just yourself? And who will punish you for your transgressions? Anyone? If you think you won’t be punished for things others are unaware of, then why should you complain about others being secretly unjust? Why be bothered whether God might be unjust, if you are not bothered about the prospect of you escaping your own injustice? Can you understand this point I am making? If you are willing to accept that there is no God, then you have accepted that there is no final justice - so why would you care about justice?

Beware, lest by the time God proves to you His existence, it will be in the form of giving you the justice you complain is lacking from Him.

But before then, He extends to us all His desire to welcome us, for He has reconciled us to Himself through the One He sent into the world He created. If we reject such a great promise of Peace, how we can complain later? I think the reason many do not accept Him is because they do not want to forgive other people, which is a requirement to be forgiven by God.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

Originally Posted by FCEGM
Actually it is man who “creates” Hell - God simply allows him to be where one without divine love is most at home.

Is there no limit to squabbling and whitewashing? Hell was created God (according to the Bible); not humans.

Here you are correct. Man did not create the place called Hell. But perhaps what FCEGM meant was that since we are punished according to our conduct, that the nature of our punishment in hell is our own doing. Certainly God dishes out the punishment, but it is in keeping with what we have done in life. In that sense, we “create” our own hell.

Here again you are decieved into believing your first impression and running with it. Are you so smart that you do not need to meditate on what things mean? Isn’t that akin to making premature conclusions?

Hitetlen:

Allegedly God created this place for the angels who rebelled against him, way before humanity came onto the scene (otherwise how could have Satan tempted them in the Garden of Eden?).

Correct.

Hitetlen:

And then he used this place to punish those humans who dare to use their God given intellect and want proper evidence for such a story, while Satan is given a free ride to continue his work. Some justice, indeed…

Caution. Consider your tendency to jump to hasty conclusions. Give this some more thought. Don’t you sense some spitefulness in the above statement? “dare to use”, “given free ride”, “some justice”.

You imply that it is reasonable to demand “proper evidence” for something we are required to take on faith. The fact is, that same story is similarly played out in our lives when we disobey a command that we know was given to us by say our parents to not steal from the cookie jar. Haven’t you ever done something you knew you were not permitted to do, something you had plenty of evidence for, yet did it anyway?

Having “proper evidence” is not enough in itself to cause you to do the right thing. Faith is still important, even when given all the evidence you could ever want. Justice requires one to keep faith. Faith is needed to keep a promise. Faith is needed to obey.

So for you to pose this as an issue of not being given “proper evidence” is a red herring, a smokescreen, and a farce. The more likely case is that you have no intention of obeying, regardless of the evidence. There is a difference between believing in God and serving God. Would you serve God and obey Him if you were given all the evidence you could want concerning His existence etc? I doubt it. But even if you would, then what value is such a servant? How would you like to hire someone who is constantly demanding you to prove you are the owner, prove your right to give a particular command, explain the reasons why you are running your business a certain way, etc.?

This is why you are being unfair, even before we consider whether God exists or not. For if He did, you wouldn’t want to act the way you are, and if there wasn’t then you shouldn’t bother to act the way you are, even with other people. The fact of the matter is, you have decided to oppose faithful obedience to God regardless of whether He exists or not!

Hitetlen:

Oh, brother. I saw a bumper sticker once, which said: “Christians are not perfect, they are just forgiven”. I probably never saw a more arrogant one

That is a Protestant one-liner. It implies that since they are now forgiven, they do not have to be perfect.

This is not true, though, because Jesus Christ told us to “be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matt 5:48). We are called to holiness. Unfortunately, many Protestant denominations scorn this notion as if they merely only have to believe they will go to heaven to go there, as if Christ paid for a legal penalty on their behalf. But that is not the Gospel.

Still, many do not give their whole heart to God, but only do so in stages. Others fall away. But we must foster devotion to God, keep our interior lives pure, and welcome Him in our hearts, and eat His flesh and drink His blood so that we may have His very Life in us. It is maintained by Faith and Obedience. But we often fall to temptation, and have to rise again by overcoming ourselves and humbly asking pardon. This life is a long battle against our own sins, against worldly influences, and against temptations of evil spirits. We hope to be crowned victors over ourselves by our God.

hurst