Why is disbelief a sin?

[DeFide]

Hitetlen:

No, I am sorry to say, I miss its significance.

God is like the immutable landscape. God’s landscape is perfect justice. We can change our position in relation to God, and we can see the differing results, although we don’t always see all the results during our time on Earth.

God has set up his immutable landscape to teach us, so that he reserves the scenery of blessing for times when we make the right turns, and thus this teaches us obedience to his will. The “turns” may be prayers, actions, or any response to or rejection of his grace.

Notice this setup does not force our hand. God is a lover with a marriage proposal, not a police officer with a search warrant.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

The concept of supplicative prayer (versus the meditational one) flies in the face of the Catholic doctrine that God is immutable, making the prayer a farce.

God is immutable, but we aren’t.

Hitetlen:

If God wants to reveal himself to me, he will do it whether I ask for it or not. If he does not want to reveal himself, I can pray (even sincerely) until I get blue in the face, and nothing will happen.

You are mistaken in thinking that what you do doesn’t matter. By asking, you open yourself to receive. It is true that He will do what He pleases apart from you, but it is also more likely that He is going to pour water into a cup held upright than into one held upside down.

hurst

 

[Hitetlen]

DeFide:

God is like the immutable landscape. God’s landscape is perfect justice. We can change our position in relation to God, and we can see the differing results, although we don’t always see all the results during our time on Earth.

God has set up his immutable landscape to teach us, so that he reserves the scenery of blessing for times when we make the right turns, and thus this teaches us obedience to his will. The “turns” may be prayers, actions, or any response to or rejection of his grace.

Notice this setup does not force our hand. God is a lover with a marriage proposal, not a police officer with a search warrant.

Ok, but what is the significance vis-a-vis the concept of supplicative prayer? If God is omniscient, he already knows what we are going to ask for. If he is immutable, he will not heed our request, unless he would do it anyhow. So either we ask in vain or our request is superfluous.

Sounds like a waste of our time and God’s attention. I don’t see anything illogical about this proposition. (But of course, all that has nothing to do with the OP. That is why I just wanted to make a passing remark, because it would be a derail of the thread if we started to get into the details.)

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

You are mistaken in thinking that what you do doesn’t matter. By asking, you open yourself to receive. It is true that He will do what He pleases apart from you, but it is also more likely that He is going to pour water into a cup held upright than into one held upside down.

Maybe it was a serious mistake to introduce the problem of supplicative prayer. So I will just answer this, and then drop the question for the time being, until we can examine it in another thread.

I don’t think that the phrase “more likely” is applicable here. Either God would want to reveal himself to me, or he would not. Whatever I do about it makes no difference. Even if I would resent this revelation, I cannot influence God and “force” him not to reveal himself, if he so chooses. Or, even if I welcome this revelation and he does not want to do it, he will not reveal himself. This is make take about the subject by strict application of logic.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

The word “universe” has a meaning: “all that exists”.

But what exists in the universe changes from moment to moment. People who were once on earth no longer live here. Tomorrow new people will be born.

To say the universe is “all that exists” is merely making a reference to all things that happen to be existing, and is really not a clear definition.

The known universe clearly does not contain all that exists, because in a few moments new things will be manifested, and old things will be gone.

hurst

 

[DeFide]

Hitetlen:

Ok, but what is the significance vis-a-vis the concept of supplicative prayer? If God is omniscient, he already knows what we are going to ask for. If he is immutable, he will not heed our request, unless he would do it anyhow. So either we ask in vain or our request is superfluous.

God does know what we will ask for, but that doesn’t mean that he gives us blessings at random times from those requests. He gives blessings in a way that He sees fit so as to fulfil his purpose.

Note also, that for some blessings, God does not wait.

I notice that you’re unwittingly setting up a contradictory idea that “There’s no need to do X, because God knows I’ll do it anyway”. Whoops, I guess if you think that way, then in reality God knows that you won’t do it.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

I have heard all the arguments for God, and none of them are convincing. I have not seen any “effects” as you call them. I don’t even know what are you talking about.

If God=Creator, then the “effects” are what was created. That includes the forces of electricity and gravity, and the tiny entities such as quarks and photons, etc.

Hitetlen:

There is no method to find out if God exists. It has to be taken on faith.

This is not true. One can know for certain, by our senses and reasoning, whether “God”, in the sense of being uncreated creator, exists. Faith is based on that natural conclusion, and takes it further.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

Unfortunately, God has neglected to notify me about this “grace” so I never received it. I did not “refuse” it, just never received it.

And it is due to God’s neglect? Is it not rather due to your own neglect of not being prepared to receive it when it arrived?

Has opportunity knocked at your door, and you neglected to answer?

If you can’t “force” yourself to “believe” in God, perhaps it is because you are relying on your own understanding. That should be a proof to you that faith is above the reach of human understanding. Another proof is the behavior of a child, which trusts even when it doesn’t understand how things work. We must be like a child.

If I gave you an opportunity to obtain faith, would you give it a try?

hurst

 

[hurst]

DeFide:

Miracles are just as natural as Newtonian physics, and Newtonian physics are just as much of God’s plan as the Miracle of the Sun witnessed by 70,000 at Fatima.

It is my understanding that miracles are supernatural, not natural. Of course, nature is involved, but nature could not cause a miracle, properly speaking.

hurst

 

[DeFide]

hurst:

It is my understanding that miracles are supernatural, not natural. Of course, nature is involved, but nature could not cause a miracle, properly speaking.

hurst

In this context, I’m referring to miracles being “natural” or normal to God and his plan, rather than natural in common parlance.

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

But what exists in the universe changes from moment to moment. People who were once on earth no longer live here. Tomorrow new people will be born.

To say the universe is “all that exists” is merely making a reference to all things that happen to be existing, and is really not a clear definition.

The known universe clearly does not contain all that exists, because in a few moments new things will be manifested, and old things will be gone.

Of course it is changing from moment to moment. The universe is not everything that can be, and everything that also has been. Why do have problem with it? It is a very clear definition.

 

[Hitetlen]

DeFide:

God does know what we will ask for, but that doesn’t mean that he gives us blessings at random times from those requests. He gives blessings in a way that He sees fit so as to fulfil his purpose.

Note also, that for some blessings, God does not wait.

I notice that you’re unwittingly setting up a contradictory idea that “There’s no need to do X, because God knows I’ll do it anyway”. Whoops, I guess if you think that way, then in reality God knows that you won’t do it.

That is not what I proposed: I only said that there is no need to formulate my desires out loud - if God is omniscient, he knows them anyway. And will fulfill my wishes if he wants to, and not fulfill them if he does not want it, regardless of whether I ask for it or not. If God is immutable I cannot influence him either way, so why bother?

 

[john_doran]

Hitetlen:

Ok, but what is the significance vis-a-vis the concept of supplicative prayer? If God is omniscient, he already knows what we are going to ask for. If he is immutable, he will not heed our request, unless he would do it anyhow. So either we ask in vain or our request is superfluous.

you do not understand what is meant by “immutable” when it is traditionally used of god. for example, it does not include relational changes (sometimes called “cambridge” changes), such as the change i undergo when someone who was to my left walks over to my right.

also, it does not preclude the exercise of free choice, at least not simpliciter.

it is a much more subtle issue than your oversimplification suggests.

 

[marysson]

Hitetlen:

Unfortunately, God has neglected to notify me about this “grace” so I never received it. I did not “refuse” it, just never received it. Maybe he sent it with Snail-Mail, and it got lost in the traffic. Would not be the first time.

If your heart is hardened to sin, maybe you didn’t notice it. Its worth praying about and doing penance.

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

If God=Creator, then the “effects” are what was created. That includes the forces of electricity and gravity, and the tiny entities such as quarks and photons, etc.

Ok, that clarified it. Thanks.

hurst:

This is not true. One can know for certain, by our senses and reasoning, whether “God”, in the sense of being uncreated creator, exists. Faith is based on that natural conclusion, and takes it further.

Nope, that is simply not true. The basic question is not: “who created the universe?”, rather it is: “does the universe require a creator?”. And unless you can prove that the universe does require a creator, the other question does not even pop up.

 

[Hitetlen]

hurst:

If you can’t “force” yourself to “believe” in God, perhaps it is because you are relying on your own understanding.

Of course I do. Whose understanding should I rely upon? I can only rely on what I know. I am willing to enhance my knowledge even in my advanced age, keep on learning and finding new knowledge.

hurst:

That should be a proof to you that faith is above the reach of human understanding.

You still have not clarified what do you mean by the word “faith”, so this sentence is unclear.

hurst:

Another proof is the behavior of a child, which trusts even when it doesn’t understand how things work. We must be like a child.

Why should I? As Paul said: “When I was a child, I behaved like a child. When I grew up I left the childish things behind”. (Not a verbatim quote, but we can look it up in the Bible if you want it.)

hurst:

If I gave you an opportunity to obtain faith, would you give it a try?

Without a proper definition of “faith” I cannot answer. But I will once you define it.

 

[Hitetlen]

john doran:

you do not understand what is meant by “immutable” when it is traditionally used of god. for example, it does not include relational changes (sometimes called “cambridge” changes), such as the change i undergo when someone who was to my left walks over to my right.

also, it does not preclude the exercise of free choice, at least not simpliciter.

it is a much more subtle issue than your oversimplification suggests.

So yet another word means something else than what it means? Why not use a more appropriate word then?

 

[Hitetlen]

marysson:

If your heart is hardened to sin, maybe you didn’t notice it. Its worth praying about and doing penance.

As I said before, going through the motions of “praying” etc. would be a farce without having a belief first. How could I sincerely pray to God, if I don’t believe that he exists?

 

[Redbandito]

Hitetlen:

The joke is good, but of course not new. I heard it many times before. The fact is that the answers are not convincing. I am using my intellect and it refuses to accept the “evidence” which is offered, because it is insufficient - in my eyes.

You have to understand that “sufficient evidence” is not an objective measuring rod, it requires that both the evidence giver and his audience view it equally. I have heard of alleged “evidence” for God’s existence many times, and it simply was not enough to take it seriously.

As someone who works with addicts and alcoholics everyday, I can only tell you the evidence is out there. Just as when I flip a light switch, the light comes on, so too when addicts believe in God and live by that, they recover. The Big Book of Alcoholic’s Anonymous teaches that this is the ONLY way to recovery. That may not be absolute proof, but it is certainly strong evidence. God in people’s lives changes them. That is an observable and replicatable fact.

 

[hurst]

Hitetlen:

The basic question is not: “who created the universe?”, rather it is: “does the universe require a creator?”. And unless you can prove that the universe does require a creator, the other question does not even pop up.

You must admit that the other question has indeed popped up for other people…

But before we consider the universe, let’s consider ourselves. Did we always exist, or were we made? Did we “require a creator”? What is your answer?

hurst