Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[Huguenot]

Like I wrote earlier,

You not arguing with me, you are arguing with Christian history and what early Christians actually believed.

The quote that you posted is from a very prominent early Christian** (Saint Bernard **1090 - 1153), which comes from a time that predates all “Protestant” religions by 400+ years.

You are not disputing my comments, you are disputing the comments of an early Christian (Catholic), who lived long before us.

Are you rewriting Christian history?

As far as your quote,

I am not in disagreement with you or your quote, but please provide the verse.

You may not understand the comment of Saint Bernard, or the context in which he made it, because you apparently do not view or understand Christian history, early Christian tradition or the Bible in context. However, I can assure you that Saint Bernard did not “worship” Mary, if that is what you are trying to imply here.

Catholicism has always been monotheistic, are you disputing that fact as well?

The formation of the Bible took over three hundred years and Christianity was defined over hundreds of years; neither can be fully “understood”, “explained” or appreciated in one paragraph or a handful of Bible verses. To do so, would be to minimize or ignore, both the full richness of the Bible and the richness of Christian history.

Thank you

Sorry for not providing the verse, I don’t post from home and I haven’t got a Bible there, I’ll try to find it later … but then you’ll have to wait until tomorrow …
I was neither implying that St Bernard was worshipping Mary or that Catholics are not monotheists …
If you have read another Catholic’s answer to on of my previous posts, you will have noticed that he said it is not COMPULSORY to go to Jesus THROUGH Mary or another saint …
the comment you posted ( by Saint Bernard ) says it is …
well it seems not all Catholics agree on that …
for me it is very clear that Jesus is the gate, as I said I’ll try to find the verse and tell you later (unless somebody else reads my message and finds where it is in John’s Gospel )
Sure I don’t know the church history very well, I became a Christian by reading the Bible, I was brought up in a atheist family ( not in Protestantism ) ; maybe in the USA ( if you are American ) it is very rare but not in France ( I’m French )

 

[planten]

Jesus is the gate to heavens and through him, many were saved. They achieve a high rank. One of them was Mary, the mother. The topic is : Why is it wrong to love Mary?

My reply is : There is nothing wrong in loving Mary. She is the most lovable for many reasons. Most of all, she is pious, sinless lady. The question here is not whether any one should worship Mary. The question is :Why is it wrong to love Mary? The question is about loving Mary. So, I feel that all Catholics and Protestants and all other groups following the christian faith should love Mary as Muslim also do. That is also because She is in a way, the mother of Jesus too.

I am sure Jesus loved his mother. So those who love Jesus should love his mother Mary.

 

[guanophore]

Why don’t you read the verse that I posted #510 and let me know if you can find hint that Mary is required for receiving the grace from God.

God decided to make Mary needful. He could have appeared fully formed at any day of his choosing. Instead, He chose to be born of a woman. Through her womb, His infinite grace entered into the world. He had so much respect for her, he even let her be the one to decide when His public ministry would start. He knew that she would have the ultimate sacrifice to release Him to his ultimate fate,and made sure she was ready to let Him go when the time came.

[1Cr 1:27] But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

This seems to me to perfectly describe what has happened with Mary.

Dictionary define the word: Mediator

one who intervenes between two persons who are at variance, with a view to reconcile them. This word is not found in the Old Testament; but the idea it expresses is found in Job 9:33, in the word “daysman” (q.v.), marg., “umpire.” This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius, an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Gal. 3:19. **Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). **He makes reconciliation between God and man by his all-perfect atoning sacrifice. Such a mediator must be at once divine and human, divine, that his obedience and his sufferings might possess infinite worth, and that he might possess infinite wisdom and knowlege and power to direct all things in the kingdoms of providence and grace which are committed to his hands (Matt. 28:18; John 5:22, 25, 26, 27); and human, that in his work he might represent man, and be capable of rendering obedience to the law and satisfying the claims of justice (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15, 16), and that in his glorified humanity he might be the head of a glorified Church (Rom. 8:29). This office involves the three functions of prophet, priest, and king, all of which are discharged by Christ both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation. These functions are so inherent in the one office that the quality appertaining to each gives character to every mediatorial act. They are never separated in the exercise of the office of mediator.

Yet Jesus, in his great Mercy and Love, allows us to participate in His unique ministry of reconconciliation. It is not Mary “or” Jesus, Paul “or” Jesus, but each of us through Jesus participating in His work.

2 Cor 5:18-21
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This “Jesus Only” approach is not biblical.

 

[guanophore]

How can Jesus be Davidic if Joseph wasn’t his biological father? I know… God can do anything. But it’s a very good point that Jews bring up.

Joseph was Jesus’ legal guadian/father. He would have the same legal status of any adopted son.

Matt 1:1-16
1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. …and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

And Mary is also of the house of David, though according to Jewish law, this is irrelevant because lineage is determined by the man.

 

[area52]

Sorry for not providing the verse, I don’t post from home and I haven’t got a Bible there, I’ll try to find it later … but then you’ll have to wait until tomorrow …
I was neither implying that St Bernard was worshipping Mary or that Catholics are not monotheists …
If you have read another Catholic’s answer to on of my previous posts, you will have noticed that he said it is not COMPULSORY to go to Jesus THROUGH Mary or another saint …
the comment you posted ( by Saint Bernard ) says it is …
well it seems not all Catholics agree on that …
for me it is very clear that Jesus is the gate, as I said I’ll try to find the verse and tell you later (unless somebody else reads my message and finds where it is in John’s Gospel )
Sure I don’t know the church history very well, I became a Christian by reading the Bible, I was brought up in a atheist family ( not in Protestantism ) ; maybe in the USA ( if you are American ) it is very rare but not in France ( I’m French )

The verse is from John 10:9-

[Jhn 10:9] I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.* He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Huguenot, I use online bible at - blueletterbible.org/index.html

 

[2ndGen]

Joseph was Jesus’ legal guadian/father. He would have the same legal status of any adopted son.

Matt 1:1-16
1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. …and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

And Mary is also of the house of David, though according to Jewish law, this is irrelevant because lineage is determined by the man.

Plus, for Jews, the child is religiously whatever the mother is relisiously.

 

[2ndGen]

My reply is : There is nothing wrong in loving Mary. She is the most lovable for many reasons. Most of all, she is pious, sinless lady. The question here is not whether any one should worship Mary. The question is :Why is it wrong to love Mary? The question is about loving Mary. So, I feel that all Catholics and Protestants and all other groups following the christian faith should love Mary as Muslim also do. That is also because She is in a way, the mother of Jesus too.

I am sure Jesus loved his mother. So those who love Jesus should love his mother Mary.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

 

[Jimmy_B]

Sorry for not providing the verse, I don’t post from home and I haven’t got a Bible there, I’ll try to find it later … but then you’ll have to wait until tomorrow …
I was neither implying that St Bernard was worshipping Mary or that Catholics are not monotheists …
If you have read another Catholic’s answer to on of my previous posts, you will have noticed that he said it is not COMPULSORY to go to Jesus THROUGH Mary or another saint …
the comment you posted ( by Saint Bernard ) says it is …
well it seems not all Catholics agree on that …
for me it is very clear that Jesus is the gate, as I said I’ll try to find the verse and tell you later (unless somebody else reads my message and finds where it is in John’s Gospel )
Sure I don’t know the church history very well, I became a Christian by reading the Bible, I was brought up in a atheist family ( not in Protestantism ) ; maybe in the USA ( if you are American ) it is very rare but not in France ( I’m French )

Hello, Huguenot,

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"Sorry for not providing the verse, I don’t post from home and I haven’t got a Bible there, I’ll try to find it later … but then you’ll have to wait until tomorrow"

I hope this is helpful,

Here here is the online Bible (NAB):

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

Here is Catholic Biblical Apologetics:

catholicapologetics.org/

Here is the online Catechism of the Catholic Church:

usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm

Here is a Catholic (Catholic online) Encyclopedia

catholic.org/encyclopedia/

Here is another Catholic (New Advent) Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/index.html

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"I was neither implying that St Bernard was worshipping Mary or that Catholics are not monotheists"

That’s good, I’m sorry but I thought that is what you were implying.

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"If you have read another Catholic’s answer to on of my previous posts, you will have noticed that he said it is not COMPULSORY to go to Jesus THROUGH Mary or another saint"

It isn’t necessary to go through Mary or the Saints, but to be Catholic is to believe in the Communion of the Saints (another subject). However, as a Christian or Christian Catholic we must understand that the way to the Father (God) is His son Jesus Christ. Reciting the Rosary isn’t “compulsory” either, but for many they find that doing so (reciting the Rosary) brings them closer to Christ Jesus.

For some Catholics the way is; Mary to Jesus, Jesus to God the Father. Do you believe there is a problem with; Mary to Jesus, Jesus to God?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"…well it seems not all Catholics agree on that"

Catholics are all required to have the same belief found in the teaching and doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, much of which can be found in the Catechism and in the Nicene Creed.

Devotions and/or an “expertise” in Catholicism is not required to be a good Catholic.

There are one billion Catholics, all individuals who experience their faith, in their own way.

For some, the Holy Rosary (Rosary here also) helps them become “more connected” to Jesus; for some; it is by reading the Bible; for others, they go to the Adoration Chapel (or Perpetual Adoration) and pray to Jesus, to become “more connected” to Him; for others the Stations of the Cross, for others it is the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and for others, it is by reading the literary works of great Catholics in Christian history, like Thomas Kempis’ the “Imitation of Christ”, and so on.

Is there anything wrong with any Catholic devotion, which brings one closer to Jesus, including those that involve loving Mary, His mother?

The reason that the Catholic “model” works, is that it transcends and a person can find His/Her own personal way to experience their faith. This distinctly, sets us apart from all other Christian religions.

If any Christian (non-Catholic) actually researched and understood the Catholic faith, they would learn that there is a perfection found in the “model”, which is the Roman Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus gave us, and that God and the Holy Spirit guides.

Many here argue against Catholicism and never actually attempt to learn anything about Catholicism.

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"I don’t know the church history very well"

And neither do I. I am not an expert on Catholicism, I am just another lay Catholic, who is trying to do my best, within my own limitations to defend my faith (which I love with all my heart) and this includes defending Mary. Like I mentioned in my previous paragraph, the “model” which is the Catholic Religion is perfect and very rich, there does not exist enough time in a single lifetime to appreciate or learn everything there is “Catholic”, however, that doesn’t mean I’ll stop trying.

Huguenot**** posted******:**

"I became a Christian by reading the Bible, I was brought up in a atheist family ( not in Protestantism )"

Great, you are half way there, now come the rest of the way and come home to Christ’s true Church, the Roman Catholic Church. This is where the truth can be found; contact your local Roman Catholic parish in France. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Jimmy_B]

For some, the Holy Rosary (Rosary here also) helps them become “more connected” to Jesus; for some; it is by reading the Bible; for others, they go to the Adoration Chapel (or Perpetual Adoration) and pray to Jesus, to become “more connected” to Him; for others the Stations of the Cross, for others it is the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and for others, it is by reading the literary works of great Catholics in Christian history, like Thomas Kempis’ the “Imitation of Christ”, and so on.

For many Catholics, it is simply attending Mass and the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (confession). It is through the Sacraments that we truly experience our Catholic Faith.

Additionally, I didn’t want to leave out, that for many Catholics, it the Sacrament of Holy Orders (ordination of priests), also becoming a Catholic Deacon or becoming a Catholic Monk, Brother, Nun; also by becoming involved as a Lectern (reading the Bible in church, during Mass), a Eucharistic Minister, by joining lay Catholic organizations like, Catholic Charities (USA), Catholic Answers, the Knight’s of Columbus or Opus Dei or by becoming a Catholic educator and so on.

There are many, many ways that one can experience Catholicism. Each and every one of these “ways” brings us as Catholics, closer to Jesus, including (the “way”) “loving His mother”, I don’t know why non-Catholics have such a hard time understanding this.

 

[Jimmy_B]

**Here is a general comment on this thread

I am not a one-dimensional person, nor am I a one-dimensional Christian (Catholic) and neither are the other Catholics posting on this thread, although it may appear that way at times, in this context here at CAF.

This thread is simply an opportunity for them as Catholics to defend one facet of their Catholic faith and to defend Mary, the Mother of God and to explain why we love her.

Most of us here are multi-dimensional, multi-faceted individuals. The purpose of this thread was to address one facet of Catholicism and unfortunately it appears that many non-Catholics here, mistakenly believe that “loving Mary” is the focal point of Catholicism, it is not.

The focal point of Catholicism is centered entirely on Jesus Christ.

**

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

In John’s Gospel, Jesus Himself said “I AM THE GATE”, so how could anyone say the gate to heaven is Mary ???

• because some people, including St Thomas Aquinas, saw Esther as a Marion typology; Through queen Esther, that is, through the Blessed Virgin the sentence of damnation passed against us was revoked; namely through her intercession. Queen Esther, that is the Blessed Virgin, pleased the eyes of the King in helping to redeem the human race and she found favor in his presence, not only for herself, but for all mankind. [See Esther (Greek) 8:3,7-8]

 

[Jimmy_B]

• because some people, including St Thomas Aquinas, saw Esther as a Marion Typology; Through queen Esther, that is, through the Blessed Virgin the sentence of damnation passed against us was revoked; namely through her intercession. Queen Esther, that is the Blessed Virgin, pleased the eyes of the King in helping to redeem the human race and she found favor in his presence, not only for herself, but for all mankind. [See Esther (Greek) 8:3,7-8]

Hello Charlie,

Wow, I am a Roman Catholic and your explanation has confused me. I hope that you will elaborate. If this doesn’t get our Protestant friends worked-up, I don’t know what will. You brought it up, so now can you please elaborate, in the context of Catholic Marion doctrine, what it is that you are actually attempting to express here?

 

[Jimmy_B]

• because some people, including St Thomas Aquinas, saw Esther as a Marion typology; Through queen Esther, that is, through the Blessed Virgin the sentence of damnation passed against us was revoked; namely through her intercession. Queen Esther, that is the Blessed Virgin, pleased the eyes of the King in helping to redeem the human race and she found favor in his presence, not only for herself, but for all mankind. [See Esther (Greek) 8:3,7-8]

Hello again,

I read the article at the link that you provided and that makes more sense to me, however it is somewhat complicated and I believe that it would require someone to have some background knowledge to understand it in the full context of this discussion. I am curious, why the emphasis on “Esther” when you could have as easily posted a quote from the article like the one below. Just wondering.

Additionally, I do not believe that Saint Thomas Aquinas was the
person quoted by the poster that you were addressing. Please correct me If I am wrong.

"In the contemplation of St. Thomas the virginal body of Mary, as well as her soul, overflowed with grace. "The soul of the Blessed Virgin was so full of grace that it overflowed into her flesh, thus fitting it for the conception of God’s Son."Her immaculate heart, her feelings, mind and will were all involved in the conception and care of her Son, just as it is in helping each of us conceive and bring forth Christ in our soul.
“Mary not only brings Christ to us, she also brings us to Christ.”

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… I am curious, why the emphasis on “Esther”…

Hi Jimmy,

“Esther” is a biblical figure. I’m just trying to speak the protestant language. They tend to dismiss anything that isn’t biblical.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy,

“Esther” is a biblical figure. I’m just trying to speak the protestant language. They tend to dismiss anything that isn’t biblical.

Oh, ok, thank you.

Just a note here, the beginning, middle and the end of the book of Esther isn’t even in the Protestant Bible. I think when our Protestant friends say that something “isn’t biblical” it might just be because it isn’t in their Bible, it has been removed from their (Protestant) Bible; or it is because their “biblical” translation is inaccurate; or, it is another case of a bad interpretation; or all of the above.

Sorry for going off-topic

 

[2ndGen]

That reminds me of something. The Evangelical Protestant community of Churches produced a movie called “One Night With The King” based on the Biblical story of Esther.

They were praising her loyalty, her Godliness, her virtue, they were espousing how much of a great example she was and I was really into their talking so beautifully about this “woman”. This went on for months as they promoted the movie they produced.

Then…it hit me.

There was a Natitivity Scene on the stage.

Who was there?

Mary.

Why couldn’t they talk about Mary as they talked about Esther?

Why was Mary off limits to praise, but Esther not?

It saddened me. I was in no way jealous of Esther and she deserves her praise and honor.

But what about Jesus’ mother was only dragged out into the converstion for Christmas and Easter, then put away again after that, never to be heard from again unless they were stomping on a Catholic for daring to speak of her as they spoke of Esther?

Don’t worry Mommy…I still love you and I will place no woman on earth above you.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Oh, ok, thank you.

Just a note here, the beginning, middle and the end of the book of Esther isn’t even in the Protestant Bible. I think when our Protestant friends say that something “isn’t biblical” it might just be because it isn’t in their Bible, it has been removed from their (Protestant) Bible; or it is because their “biblical” translation is inaccurate; or, it is another case of a bad interpretation; or all of the above.

Sorry for going off-topic

Funny, the book of Esther is in my bible…

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Singinbeauty,

You wrote:

Funny, the book of Esther is in my bible…

Funny, you missed the first part of my post where I wrote;

“the beginning

, middle and the end of the book of Esther isn’t even in the Protestant Bible”*
See for yourself,

Here is a link to a Catholic (NAB) bible showing the book of Esther.

Here is a link to a Protestant (KJV) bible showing the book of Esther.

If you will notice, six chapters are missing from the Protestant (KJV) Bible, book of Esther. That doesn’t mean that your Bible doesn’t have the entire book today, depending on which Protestant Bible you are using, the six missing chapters, might actually be in your Bible.

It is “funny” how the Protestant Bible seems to be getting more and more, “Catholic” every year, gee, I wonder if that is because there exist more linguists and more Bible scholars today and it is getting harder to produce a truly “Protestant” Bible. It might also be the fact that the Catholic Church got it right a long time ago.

BTW, what did think about Daniel 13 and Daniel 14?

Please try again, Thank you.

 

[lilia_psalm23]

That reminds me of something. The Evangelical Protestant community of Churches produced a movie called “One Night With The King” based on the Biblical story of Esther.

They were praising her loyalty, her Godliness, her virtue, they were espousing how much of a great example she was and I was really into their talking so beautifully about this “woman”. This went on for months as they promoted the movie they produced.

Then…it hit me.

There was a Natitivity Scene on the stage.

Who was there?

Mary.

Why couldn’t they talk about Mary as they talked about Esther?

Why was Mary off limits to praise, but Esther not?

It saddened me. I was in no way jealous of Esther and she deserves her praise and honor.

But what about Jesus’ mother was only dragged out into the converstion for Christmas and Easter, then put away again after that, never to be heard from again unless they were stomping on a Catholic for daring to speak of her as they spoke of Esther?

Don’t worry Mommy…I still love you and I will place no woman on earth above you.

Yeah, its really kinda sad that they do lack appreciation of Mary. Was it really that hard to accept that she’s special and deserves our respect and love? I know that most of them are really very knowlegeable about the Bible. But I think its more than enough proof that Mary really is special because God chose her, a humble young girl, to be the mother of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. And its really sad to know that most Protestants just take this fact for granted. And it pains me to think that this is one of the reasons that separates us to them.