Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[peary]

Do you the following hymn to Mary is the proper way to honor her?

**Daily, Daily, Sing to Mary **

Verse 1
Daily, daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due.
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the heart’s devotion true.
Lost in wond’ring contemplation,
Be her Majesty confess’d.
Call her Mother, call her Virgin,
Happy Mother, Virgin blest.

Verse 2
She is mighty to deliver.
Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea.
Gifts of heaven she has given,
Noble Lady, to our race.
She, the Queen, who decks her subjects
With the light of God’s own grace.

Verse 3
Sing, my tongue, the Virgin’s trophies
Who for us her Maker bore.
For the curse of old inflicted,
Peace and blessing to restore.
Sing in songs of peace unending,
Sing the world’s majestic Queen.
Weary not nor faint in telling.
All the gifts she gives to men.

Does it refer to her as God? No.
Again, Mary is the woman who is at the center of our redemption, and she becomes the center of our redemption through Christ our Savior.
So, in that respect, yes, the hymn is appropriate to honor her.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… St. Paul established many of the earliest churches of Christendom and he wrote a large part of the New Testament, mostly letters to these churches.

  Why is it, if Mary is so central in our faith, does he not once make reference to her in all those letters? ...

Hi Roy5,

I don’t think we know the definitive answer to that question. I can only offer some suggestions.

Perhaps Mary was still alive.

Anyway, the bible is certainly a book about Jesus, and not Mary. The bible is not even a book about the Catholic Church.

I think the best biblical references to Mary were written by St Luke. In particular, as Elizabeth shows her humility when she met with Mary and said “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1:43), it reminds one of David who queried his worthiness to be in the presence of the Ark (2 S 6:9). Also, the baby within Elizabeth’s womb leaped with joy in the presence of Mary (Lk 1:44), it reminds one of David showing great celebration for the Ark (2 S 6:12). Consider Mary’s three month stay with Elizabeth (Lk 1:56) and it reminds one of the three months that Obed Enom hosted the Ark (2 S 6:11).

Yes, that’s right. Catholics believe Mary is the Ark of the New Convenant.

 

[guanophore]

    Why is it, if Mary is so central in our faith, does he not once make reference to her in all those letters? He writes the churches about all sorts of doctrines and ethical standards, but never mentions Mary. That seems to suggest that he didn't feel that veneration of Mary had a central place in Christian worship and theology.

You are right on here, Roy5. Mary is not central to the Catholic faith. Jesus is. She has no place in Christian worship, other than alongside the others that are worshipping. She also does not figure prominently in Theology. On the contrary, it is the central place of Jesus in theology that demonstrates the Marian doctrines.

I suggest that Mary adulation was borrowed from competing religions of that time, several of which had Virgin goddesses who possessed enormous power.

Then you would be in error!

It’s just that Mary veneration is not found in scripture (unless stretched beyond recognition)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion!

and it is contrary to my monotheism to venerate Mary or any of the countless saints, many of them legendary or embellished wildly by legends. Yet, I know how hard it is for ardent followers of any faith to admit their mistakes - or to be objective. Their faith serves as an important source of comfort - and as shield in this huge and precarious and mysterious world.

Only a person who does not know the difference between honor and worship would say such a thing.

      So, embrace whatever form of Christianity suits your mind. As for me, I like to think for myself and not feel the need to follow any ancient creed or modern Pope or preacher. God gave us a brain to use and surely he will not punish us if we don't figure everything out correctly. "Now we know in part" said St. Paul, and that's the best we can do. I can wait until heaven to find out the fuller truth. I expect to meet millions of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. there. Eternal salvation certainly is not won by correct theology. We all are ignorant of so much. Some people accept this. Others must believe that they belong to the one, true church. Vatican II helped move us from that vain and silly assertion.

Apparently you misunderstood the documents of Vatican II as much as you did the Bible!

 

[1234]

There’s nothing wrong with loving Mary.

But Catholics worship her like a goddess, which indeed is what she has become. People pray to her rather that to God or Jesus.

Being born of a virgin is something attributed to many famous ancients and ancient gods- Aristotle was said to be born of a virgin. So was Osiris. All ancient religions had their virgin goddesses–for the Greeks it was Athena (Minerva to the Romans), and Artemis (Diana to the Romans). In the Iliad, the epic of the fall of Troy, Athena beat out Aphrodite, the goddess of Love, which means erotic love.

Mary is said to have died at Ephesus, the great shrine of Diana.

The Catholic worship of Mary simply keeps alive an ancient tradition. That doesn’t mean that other Christians have to do it.

 

[paarsurrey]

There’s nothing wrong with loving Mary.
But Catholics worship her like a goddess, which indeed is what she has become. People pray to her rather that to God or Jesus.
The Catholic worship of Mary simply keeps alive an ancient tradition. That doesn’t mean that other Christians have to do it.

Hi

I endorse your views.

Thanks

 

[peary]

I don’t think we know the definitive answer to that question. I can only offer some suggestions.

Perhaps Mary was still alive.

Anyway, the bible is certainly a book about Jesus, and not Mary. The bible is not even a book about the Catholic Church.

I think the best biblical references to Mary were written by St Luke. In particular, as Elizabeth shows her humility when she met with Mary and said “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1:43), it reminds one of David who queried his worthiness to be in the presence of the Ark (2 S 6:9). Also, the baby within Elizabeth’s womb leaped with joy in the presence of Mary (Lk 1:44), it reminds one of David showing great celebration for the Ark (2 S 6:12). Consider Mary’s three month stay with Elizabeth (Lk 1:56) and it reminds one of the three months that Obed Enom hosted the Ark (2 S 6:11).

Yes, that’s right. Catholics believe Mary is the Ark of the New Convenant.

**According to our historical tradition, Mary ‘died’ outside Ephesus around 49-50 A.D. And the earliest epistle of Paul (to the Galatians) is dated to anywhere around 48-62 A.D.

The devotion to Mary had a very early beginning in the Church. The first recorded instance of Mary outside of the gospel is, of all places, to James the Apostle, in Saragossa, Spain. Although she lived in the area of Ephesus, she appeared to James (the Greater) who had begun to spread the gospel to that area of Europe. This was about 40 A.D. According to tradition, he was very despondent on the failure of his mission to bring the Good News to the peoples there. While deep in prayer, Mary is said to have appeared to him and give him courage to continue. This incident inspired James to enlist the help of a local carpenter to fashion a likeness of her in the form of a statue. When the local people heard about it, they began to flock to it and, eventually, the Christian congregation there built a church in her honor. There have been many physical healings associated with honoring Mary through Jesus.

Early Christians also made a connection between the woman in Revelations to that of Mary, so honoring Mary has always been an integral part of the Catholic Church down through its long history, and that includes the Eastern Orthodox.

By the way, the New Testament Scriptures IS about the Church (Catholic). The Catholic Church is the ONLY valid and historical biblical Church. The Church in ACTS is the same Church as the Catholic Church today whether you wish to admit it or not. **

 

[guanophore]

There’s nothing wrong with loving Mary.

But Catholics worship her like a goddess, which indeed is what she has become. People pray to her rather that to God or Jesus.

This statement represents a misunderstanding of Catholicism. Catholics don’t worship Mary at all. She is a creature, and worshipping her would be idolatry!

Catholics don’t pray to Mary “instead”. We ask Mary to pray along with us, just as people join hands and pray all over the world.

Being born of a virgin is something attributed to many famous ancients and ancient gods- Aristotle was said to be born of a virgin. So was Osiris. All ancient religions had their virgin goddesses–for the Greeks it was Athena (Minerva to the Romans), and Artemis (Diana to the Romans). In the Iliad, the epic of the fall of Troy, Athena beat out Aphrodite, the goddess of Love, which means erotic love.

Do you mean to say that Jesus was not born to a virgin, or that because this concept shows up in other religions that the Christian religion is wrong?

Mary is said to have died at Ephesus, the great shrine of Diana.

Really? Who says that?

The Catholic worship of Mary simply keeps alive an ancient tradition. That doesn’t mean that other Christians have to do it.

Certainly not! I would strongly urge that no one claiming to be a Christian even think about worshipping Mary.

How do you show your love for her?

 

[sambos671]

justasking4

Proper exegesis of the Scriptures i.e. understanding what the authors meant on a particular issue has nothing to do with fathers. It may help to know what they thought but they are not essential to understanding Scripture. You are greatly mistaken on this point.

A proper exegete of scripture requires several things. A knowledge of the language used in the translation ie Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew. Then a knowledge of history and events at the time of the writing. Then a thorough cultural understanding of the writing that occured. Often times Protestants (myself inclueded) will look at an english translation (my faviorite is the NIV, though I’ve used KJV, ASV, Dakes, and others as well) and understand it by how it has been translated in our modern understanding of our own vernacular. An easy point of reference is love. We use love to cover many things. Greeks had 4 words to mean love. Ah, you may say read it in context of the rest of the passage. And indeed that will give a fuller meaning. However, do we go beyond that?
That’s the context with in scripture but what is the language actually saying? Translators often have difficulty translating a Greek text into english because a direct translation may not make sence. This is also due to how expressions were meant at the time. English: “My dogs are tired” meaning " My feet are tired". Two thousand years from now a person will sugest we’re talking about the animal! And if it is written in scripture that way, there may be a division between those saying I meant the animal and those saying I meant my feet.
To understand the Gospels we need to understand what Jesus was speaking about from his Jewish context (his cultural context and his educational contex). How can we be sure of how people viewed phrases of the day? Well, from other writings which is why Homer is view in the context of Heroditus and other writings of the period. There is debate over what Jesus meant in John 6. Well, as clear as it may seem in the context of the passage; modern thinkers will say: “when I give an example I will say for instance you must devour a book but what I mean is read and comprehend what your reading.” Many Protestants think that this what Jesus is saying. On the other hand what do the writings of the period tell us (the early church fathers)? Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, was in communion with certain apostles. In other words he met them. So, how did he understand their teaching? The reaction of the crowd in John 6 is very telling as well. What was the context then. You’re closer to finding out with the Church Fathers than not.

 

[Righteousone]

Bottom line…Mary is Christ’s Mother. Love Her.

 

[area52]

hi Roy5: the rosary is a devotional prayerand meditative prayer. we are asking the mother of our Lord to help love and know her Son our Lord better. would you defile the very womb in which Crist Jesus was formed?i say defile because of Mary’s immaculate conception> Mary was born without original sin>it is as if she was baptised before birth.if Joseph and Mary were to pro-create then Mary’s womb would have been defiled by orginal sin… there has been two other post put up while i was typing this one please don’t think we are ganging up on you.

If Mary was born without original sin, why was she redeemed?

[Taken from- http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20050516_mary-grace-hope-christ_en.html ]
We agree that there can be but one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ, and reject any interpretation of the role of Mary which obscures this affirmation. We agree in recognising that Christian understanding of Mary is inseparably linked with the doctrines of Christ and the Church. We agree in recognising the grace and unique vocation of Mary, Mother of God Incarnate (Theotókos), in observing her festivals, and in according her honour in the communion of saints. We agree that she was prepared by divine grace to be the mother of our Redeemer, by whom she herself was redeemed and received into glory. We further agree in recognising in Mary a model of holiness, obedience and faith for all Christians. We accept that it is possible to regard her as a prophetic figure of the Church of God before as well as after the Incarnation (para. 30).

 

[justasking4]

peary;3318745]**
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you the following hymn to Mary is the proper way to honor her?

Daily, Daily, Sing to Mary

Verse 1
Daily, daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due.
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the heart’s devotion true.
Lost in wond’ring contemplation,
Be her Majesty confess’d.
Call her Mother, call her Virgin,
Happy Mother, Virgin blest.

Verse 2
She is mighty to deliver.
Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea.
Gifts of heaven she has given,
Noble Lady, to our race.
She, the Queen, who decks her subjects
With the light of God’s own grace.

Verse 3
Sing, my tongue, the Virgin’s trophies
Who for us her Maker bore.
For the curse of old inflicted,
Peace and blessing to restore.
Sing in songs of peace unending,
Sing the world’s majestic Queen.
Weary not nor faint in telling.
All the gifts she gives to men.**

Does it refer to her as God? No.
Again, Mary is the woman who is at the center of our redemption, and she becomes the center of our redemption through Christ our Savior.
So, in that respect, yes, the hymn is appropriate to honor her.

Do you have any problem then in believing that she:
She is mighty to deliver?

Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea?

That she gives “All the gifts she gives to men”?

Does Mary have power to do all these things?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3318518]
I suppose that some find it proper.

Do you?

Do you not believe that Jesus empowers us to do the things that are bolded here?

Not really.

What do you think He meant, when He said “greater things than I do, will you do, because I go to the Father”?

I think that He is referring not to the miracles that some of the apostles would do but the preaching of the gospel message that would result in saving of the souls of many men and women. This is the “greater things” that would result.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… But Catholics worship her like a goddess, which indeed is what she has become. People pray to her rather that to God or Jesus…

Sure, Catholics pray to Mary. There’s nothing wrong about that.

But we don’t worship her because we don’t offer any sacrifices to her.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Sure, Catholics pray to Mary. There’s nothing wrong about that.

But we don’t worship her because we don’t offer any sacrifices to her.

But that is where the problem comes in. To us, praying (and by praying I mean, bowing your head and talking to someone not physically in front of you. I don’t accept the whole “praying just means asking” there is more to it when you bow your head and pray, you don’t do that with friends and family) IS WORSHIP. It is coming before the Almighty and only GOD deserves this act. Jesus taught us how to pray and HE never indicated that it should be to anyone other than God.

That is why there is a difference of opinion between protestants and catholics.

 

[peary]

Do you have any problem then in believing that she:
She is mighty to deliver?

Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea?

That she gives “All the gifts she gives to men”?

Does Mary have power to do all these things?

**The Catholic Church teaches and has ALWAYS taught that Mary receives her spiritual gifts and charism from the Holy Spirit, as we do. It is Christ working in and through her that protects us under the mantle of her motherhood.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son” (John 14:12,13).

You don’t take Christ at His word, do you?**

 

[justasking4]

peary;3321547]**
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you have any problem then in believing that she:
She is mighty to deliver?

Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea?

That she gives “All the gifts she gives to men”?

Does Mary have power to do all these things?

peary
The Catholic Church teaches and has ALWAYS taught that Mary receives her spiritual gifts and charism from the Holy Spirit, as we do. It is Christ working in and through her that protects us under the mantle of her motherhood.**
The problem is that there is no such teaching for this in the NT. How could the apostles (who were closes to Christ and knew Mary personally) be totally unaware of such a truth?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

because I go to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" (John 14:12,13).

You don’t take Christ at His word, do you?

The quote you use says nothing about appealing to Mary for anything. In fact this passage demonstrates clearly why there is no need to appeal to Mary for anything since Jesus Himself is our High Priest and advocate before the Father.

 

[peary]

The problem is that there is no such teaching for this in the NT. How could the apostles (who were closes to Christ and knew Mary personally) be totally unaware of such a truth?

The quote you use says nothing about appealing to Mary for anything. In fact this passage demonstrates clearly why there is no need to appeal to Mary for anything since Jesus Himself is our High Priest and advocate before the Father.

**You’re another one who doesn’t take Christ at His word. You only accept Christ on your own terms, not on His, unfortunately.

Mary was and continues to be an integral part of the Body of Christ which exists, not only on earth in us, but also in Heaven in the saints, who are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and who have never - NEVER - stopped loving us, or desiring to help us come closer to the Lord. Your understanding of the Communion of Saints is wrong. You believe what the pagan Buddhist religion believes - that once you reach Nirvana (Heaven) you are “swallowed up” in eternal bliss, never to desire the world again; hence, your understanding of the Body of Christ is also wrong.

As Jesus told His apostles in John 14:12,13: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

You want Christ to bestow such ‘power’ of works on his followers today, and yes, even upon yourself, but you would deny it to His own mother, the first disciple who gave Him life and brought Him into the world.

The aversion to honoring Mary began in the protestant psyche when there began an aversion to motherhood and the sanctity of human life and everything associated with it, unfortunately. This was revealed with the protestant acceptance of birth control, of artificial contraception, and with abortion. What was once holy and honorable in the sight of God is now mocked and attacked. And in my experience, I have found that those with real issues with regard to honoring Mary and asking for Her intercession through Christ have real issues with, if not their own relationship with their mothers, but of their own motherhood and guilt themselves.**

 

[justasking4]

peary;3321645]**
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem is that there is no such teaching for this in the NT. How could the apostles (who were closes to Christ and knew Mary personally) be totally unaware of such a truth?

The quote you use says nothing about appealing to Mary for anything. In fact this passage demonstrates clearly why there is no need to appeal to Mary for anything since Jesus Himself is our High Priest and advocate before the Father.

peary
You’re another one who doesn’t take Christ at His word. You only accept Christ on your own terms, not on His, unfortunately.**
Lets take this a step at a time. Where in the passage you quote in John 14 does Jesus say anything about praying to Mary for anything?
Where does it say anything in the entire Scripture where we are exhorted to pray to Mary?

This is what you need to show if you are claiming to take Christ at His word. Remember His word is found only in Scripture.

Mary was and continues to be an integral part of the Body of Christ which exists, not only on earth in us, but also in Heaven in the saints, who are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and who have never - NEVER - stopped loving us, or desiring to help us come closer to the Lord. Your understanding of the Communion of Saints is wrong. You believe what the pagan Buddhist religion believes - that once you reach Nirvana (Heaven) you are “swallowed up” in eternal bliss, never to desire the world again; hence, your understanding of the Body of Christ is also wrong.

Not so. What i’m looking for is your support for the assertion that those who have died can hear your prayers here. Not only your audible prayers but your silent non audible prayers. Where do the Scriptures teach such a thing?

As Jesus told His apostles in John 14:12,13: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do

; because I go to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
What did Jesus mean when He said this? How was it fulfilled in the NT?

You want Christ to bestow such ‘power’ of works on his followers today, and yes, even upon yourself, but you would deny it to His own mother, the first disciple who gave Him life and brought Him into the world.

What i don’t see is any justification from the scriptures to pray to those who have died and have no part in this world.

The aversion to honoring Mary began in the protestant psyche when there began an aversion to motherhood and the sanctity of human life and everything associated with it, unfortunately. This was revealed with the protestant acceptance of birth control, of artificial contraception, and with abortion. What was once holy and honorable in the sight of God is now mocked and attacked.

This would be an excellent topic to discuss somewhere else.

And in my experience, I have found that those with real issues with regard to honoring Mary and asking for Her intercession through Christ have real issues with, if not their own relationship with their mothers, but of their own motherhood and guilt themselves.

This maybe true for some but not me. I seek to follow what the Scriptures teach and compare all teachings and spiritual truth claims with it. In regards to the marian doctrines they are not found in the scriptures.

 

[fbl9]

book of Proverbs 10:7 memory of the just will be blessed.

 

[fbl9]

If Mary was born without original sin, why was she redeemed?

[Taken from- http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20050516_mary-grace-hope-christ_en.html

]
We agree that there can be but one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ, and reject any interpretation of the role of Mary which obscures this affirmation. We agree in recognising that Christian understanding of Mary is inseparably linked with the doctrines of Christ and the Church. We agree in recognising the grace and unique vocation of Mary, Mother of God Incarnate (Theotókos), in observing her festivals, and in according her honour in the communion of saints. We agree that she was prepared by divine grace to be the mother of our Redeemer, by whom she herself was redeemed and received into glory. We further agree in recognising in Mary a model of holiness, obedience and faith for all Christians. We accept that it is possible to regard her as a prophetic figure of the Church of God before as well as after the Incarnation (para. 30).Mary being born without original is her redemption through Christ Jesus who choose her to be His mother.Jesus redeemed her at her conception.