C
cynic
Guest
well I’ll put it more clearly : is it moral to drink in order to feel ‘relaxed’
- Status
L
LilyM
Guest
Thank you! that’s a lot clearer. Maybe I can be clearer too now. As long as your idea of ‘relaxed’ doesn’t include any noticeable impairment of mental or physical faculties then it’s OK morally.
L
leeroydube
Guest
You kno when Jesus came to be, de pple of de world did not accept hiz Greatness thus hiz work waz labelled Immoral.Dats simply de same with Ganja - pple hve not yet discovered its Greatness !!!..OUTTA!
C
cynic
Guest
then one beer is one too many. Any amount of alcohol impares, that’s why the blood alcohol limit for driving is so low.
1
1281
Guest
I think recreational marijuana use is very immoral. I used to use the alchohol excuse, but now I feel much differently. People can and do drink in moderation and I think that’s perfectly fine. It’s a lot harder to smoke marijuana in moderation.
Another thing is that marijuana is a gateway drug. Pretty much everyone I knew who was a regular marijuana smoker got involved with crystal meth later in life. This does not happen because marijuana magically makes you want to do harder drugs. It happens because the hardcore drug dealers (in my experience, almost always middle-aged men) often prey on potheads (again in my experience, usually teenagers or men in their early 20s) because their judgement is impaired on a long-term basis, they have already sort of breeched the surface of the illegal drug world, and therefor are already part of the subculture. They simply have yet to graduate to the higher (or lower, depending on how you look at it) levels of the subculture.
It’s all connected. I would disagree with those who say that there’s a distinction between the marijuana trade and the trade of other illegal drugs.
Lastly, in the US and many other countries, pot (and other illegal drugs) can generally only be purchased with what already is or what soon becomes blood money. Financing the drug trade is not right, regardless of how good the product might make you feel.
This brings me to another point. The prohibition of marijuana use is not necessarily a good law, though I wouldn’t go as far as to call it unjust because it doesn’t outlaw anything that’s inherently good by definition. Nothing positive (creativity, relaxation, a social life, ect.) comes from smoking pot that can’t come from cleaner and better catalysts. Meanwhile, plenty of evil things (chief among them the introduction into a whole abyss of perversion and misery that comes from harder drugs like crystal meth, cocaine, ect.) can and do result from its use.
Horror stories about the effects of harder drugs on the mind, the body, and the fabric of society itself and truthful accounts of how marijuana leads to their use might serve as a good means of persuasion in convincing someone that smoking pot is bad.
-George
Another thing is that marijuana is a gateway drug. Pretty much everyone I knew who was a regular marijuana smoker got involved with crystal meth later in life. This does not happen because marijuana magically makes you want to do harder drugs. It happens because the hardcore drug dealers (in my experience, almost always middle-aged men) often prey on potheads (again in my experience, usually teenagers or men in their early 20s) because their judgement is impaired on a long-term basis, they have already sort of breeched the surface of the illegal drug world, and therefor are already part of the subculture. They simply have yet to graduate to the higher (or lower, depending on how you look at it) levels of the subculture.
It’s all connected. I would disagree with those who say that there’s a distinction between the marijuana trade and the trade of other illegal drugs.
Lastly, in the US and many other countries, pot (and other illegal drugs) can generally only be purchased with what already is or what soon becomes blood money. Financing the drug trade is not right, regardless of how good the product might make you feel.
This brings me to another point. The prohibition of marijuana use is not necessarily a good law, though I wouldn’t go as far as to call it unjust because it doesn’t outlaw anything that’s inherently good by definition. Nothing positive (creativity, relaxation, a social life, ect.) comes from smoking pot that can’t come from cleaner and better catalysts. Meanwhile, plenty of evil things (chief among them the introduction into a whole abyss of perversion and misery that comes from harder drugs like crystal meth, cocaine, ect.) can and do result from its use.
Horror stories about the effects of harder drugs on the mind, the body, and the fabric of society itself and truthful accounts of how marijuana leads to their use might serve as a good means of persuasion in convincing someone that smoking pot is bad.
-George
L
LilyM
Guest
I said NOTICEABLE impairment - such as, for example, the level that impairs driving. Blood alcohol limit for driving is LOW, but it’s not ZILCH. Here in Australia the limit is 0.05% blood alcohol. One beer almost certainly would not put you over, even one beer an hour is unlikely to (unless you’re small or haven’t eaten or something).
O
onceagain
Guest
It’s silly to say that it’s impossible to get buzzed off of marijuana. I can easily take two or three hits off of a bowl and feel relaxed. I can still articulate my thoughts clearly and I don’t turn into some bumbling idiot that you seem to think all weed smokers are.
This is a ridiculous stance to take. Cannabis isn’t anywhere close to tobacco - which is “associated with coronary heart disease, stroke, ulcers, respiratory infections, lung cancer (as well as cancer of the larynx, esophagus, bladder, pancreas, stomach, & uterine cervix), bronchitis, emphysema, early menopause, and stillborn & premature children (NIDA, 1999).”. Oh, and this little thing called addiction.
I’m pretty sure there’s a reason why we have medical marijuana not medical caffeine, tobacco or alcohol.
Hopefully i’m not coming off as condescending - there is a lot of propaganda out there about marijauana and you really have no first hand experience so who can blame you for your opinion?
G
Gerrygarvin
Guest
LilyM has no clue. if you take a hit or two from a bowl or joint you don’t get any higher, than if you drink a glass of wine. You don’t lose control over your faculties etc.
Yes it is true some people, especially teenagers flip out and have “psychotic episodes” after smoking way too much. However these are not serious at all, and if you’re family really is thickly populated with doctors, then i’m sure you know that the treatment for these episodes is basically to say, “there is nothing wrong with you, sit tight and you’ll be fine.” They shouldn’t be at the hospital in the first place, they just end up there because their uninformed friends or family drag them to the emergency room for what is essentially strong feelings of paranoia that will go away in a few hours if untreated, and have no lasting effects.
On the other hand, it is completely possible to die from consuming too much alcohol.
As someone who works as an addictions therapist, i can assure you that I have seen hundreds of people destroy their lives with alcohol, and have yet to treat one person for marijuana dependence. Drunks do stuff like black out, drive to bad neighborhoods where they pick up crackwhores, get into brutal fights, and crash their cars, assault police…etc. Marijuana just doesn’t generally effect people this way.
I think Marijuana use can be immoral, in that it’s wrong to endanger your family’s security by engaging in illegal activity. However, were it legal, it would be ludicrous to say it was any more immoral than alcohol.
Yes it is true some people, especially teenagers flip out and have “psychotic episodes” after smoking way too much. However these are not serious at all, and if you’re family really is thickly populated with doctors, then i’m sure you know that the treatment for these episodes is basically to say, “there is nothing wrong with you, sit tight and you’ll be fine.” They shouldn’t be at the hospital in the first place, they just end up there because their uninformed friends or family drag them to the emergency room for what is essentially strong feelings of paranoia that will go away in a few hours if untreated, and have no lasting effects.
On the other hand, it is completely possible to die from consuming too much alcohol.
As someone who works as an addictions therapist, i can assure you that I have seen hundreds of people destroy their lives with alcohol, and have yet to treat one person for marijuana dependence. Drunks do stuff like black out, drive to bad neighborhoods where they pick up crackwhores, get into brutal fights, and crash their cars, assault police…etc. Marijuana just doesn’t generally effect people this way.
I think Marijuana use can be immoral, in that it’s wrong to endanger your family’s security by engaging in illegal activity. However, were it legal, it would be ludicrous to say it was any more immoral than alcohol.
L
LilyM
Guest
I’m not talking about using drugs to the point of being a ‘bumbling idiot’ at all, but perhaps beyond the point of impairment. For example, where a person could responsibly drive. You must know there’s a massive difference between FEELING impaired and actually being impaired. I don’t think it’s impossible to be unimpaired by marijuana, I do feel it’s more difficult and the effects of marijuana are less predictable than with alcohol. There needs to be a lot more study done into the effects of marijuana on fine motor skills and such.
Addiction? I don’t know exactly HOW addictive cannabis is in comparison to other drugs. I don’t think it’s completely unaddictive though.Cannabis isn’t anywhere close to tobacco - which is “associated with coronary heart disease, stroke, ulcers, respiratory infections, lung cancer (as well as cancer of the larynx, esophagus, bladder, pancreas, stomach, & uterine cervix), bronchitis, emphysema, early menopause, and stillborn & premature children (NIDA, 1999).”. Oh, and this little thing called addiction.
No tobacco isn’t used medicinally, but caffeine has actually been used in the past in medical treatment, so has alcohol (hence the expression ‘a medicinal brandy’)
Have you ever wondered why marijuana ISN’T treated the same as alcohol? It’d be easy enough to enact a law saying ‘x amount of THC in the blood is fine and you’re ok to drive with it, if you’re above then it’s impairing your driving and it’s illegal’. Remember that all the currently illegal drugs have actually been legal at some point - in some cases for quite a long time. If they were banned it’s usually because there’s a reasonable amount of evidence accumulated that they are in fact harmful. If anything, the currently legal drugs of alcohol and tobacco should probably also be more stringently policed and restricted as well.
No condescenscion taken. Never used marijuana myself, but I have plenty of family and friends who have in varying degrees, as well as half-a-dozen family members who are doctors so I’m not completely ignorant. My sister worked for quite a while in emergency medicine - perhaps because she DID see the horror cases and told me about them that coloured my perceptions somewhat.
I don’t know really how it compares to other drugs but I fail to see how someone who is having an actual psychotic episode from excessive and long-term cannabis use (which does happen) is doing less damage to themselves than an alcoholic who is similarly mentally affected.
Like I said, I’m not particularly approving of tobacco or alcohol either in spite of the fact that they’re legal.
G
Gerrygarvin
Guest
I don’t think that’s accurate in the case of Marijuana, it was legal, but the “evidence” for why it should be banned was psuedo science hysteria"
O
onceagain
Guest
I can’t name any studies off the top of my head but it’s my own personal experience that people high on marijuana are safer drivers then drunks. I would MUCH rather get in a car with someone high driving then a drunk. But then again if it was possible I would do neither.
That’s exactly what i’m saying because guess what? Marijuana is NOT addictive. Studies have shown and it’s a widely recognized fact - even by gasp doctors.
It’s not that simple. The problem with marijuana, and a major hurdle the legalization movement has to face IS testing. With marijuana you can’t just breath into a breathalyzer or even use an on the spot blood or piss test.
The problem is that THC is stored in fat, which is why depending on your body weight and how active you are it can be detectable for up to 3-4 weeks after smoking. Now don’t misunderstand this as meaning that someone is going to be high for 3-4 weeks - 2 or 3 hours after smoking (possibly longer if eaten) the person will be perfectly sober.
It’s so difficult to detect marijuana because we have no solid proof like with alcohol. Someone could’ve smoked a whole bunch the night before and have higher THC levels then someone who had a few hits an hour before being tested. It’s also very easy to make yourself look and smell perfectly sober, and most experienced smokers can act normal.
Hope I shed some light on the issue for you.
G
Gerrygarvin
Guest
people who wanted to ban drugs were totally scared that black dudes would get high, flip out and do white women.
L
LilyM
Guest
Ok, we can argue about exactly how harmful it is, and how it compares to alcohol and other drugs, can we agree that at least at some levels of use it’s harmful.
I’m not hysterical about marijuana, I don’t think one puff makes you lose all control, but I’m dubersome about how safe it is as well, although it may just be ignorance on my part. If it can studied and proven, for example, that a few puffs have as little impact on driving as one glass of wine, then fine and dandy.
AND if it could be shown that all THC was eliminated from the body within a day or so, as all alcohol is (even large amounts), then even better. Knowing, as everyone should, that at least some of it stays in the body for WEEKS is what scares me about marijuana more than anything else. Can’t help but wonder what effect it has …
If it could further be shown that small amounts of marijuana are in fact beneficial to health, as has been shown with wine and even caffeine, then I’d completely revise my opinion of it entirely.
J
Julian_Peters
Guest
Although this subject matter tends to be a heated topic, it is important to be considerate when posting replies. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will be closed.
G
Gerrygarvin
Guest
wine being beneficial to your health, or even “having drinks” being beneficial to your health does not demonstrate that alcohol itself his beneficial. better research needs to rule out effects of grapes ect in the first example, and effects of an active social life in the second.
you should fly to Amsterdam and smoke some weed, i think it would help you get a better handle on the topic.
W
wabrams
Guest
As it has been pointed out by other posters, it’s just extreme paranoia. You just tell them to chill out and sit down and they mellow out within a short time as long as you keep calm.
Because most people who smoke weed that get into a car afterwards don’t drive like a bat out of hades, bobbin’ & weavin’; most people driving that are high drive right at the speed limit or lower and act like they just read the DMV manual for driving. How many wrecks do you hear about people who are high get in vs people who are drunk?
What are the other damages you are referring too?
L
LilyM
Guest
Exactly - so both are impairing, yes? And therefore immoral if used at a level that impairs, yes? The quesiton is what level of marijuana use impairs - I wouldn’t say that any consumption at all impairs, but (perhaps mistakenly) I feel it’s easier to get to that level with marijuana than alcohol.
Am I missing something - is THC not the active ingredient? Is it not the stuff in the marijuana that actually does get you high? Of course it’s like alcohol where you need a certain level to be unfit (for example) to drive, so I freely accept that after a number of hours the level will be low enough that you’ll basically be sober.
Well I’m certainly learning, which is always good
G
Gerrygarvin
Guest
I’m pretty sure that at after the people at the wedding in Cana drank all the wine then got a totally fresh supply they would have been pretty “impaired” driving home.
You get “impaired” if you don’t sleep all night. I don’t think a change in mood, or some functioning ability is neccessarily immoral in itself, unless it prevents you from being able to make moral decisions. I don’t think drinking enough to feel like everyone is your best buddy is neccessarily wrong. On the other hand drinking enough to cheat on your wife and beat your kids would be. I think there’s a difference. Otherwise it would be a sin to run a marathon, because in that case you certainly would fundamentally alter your mood, and change your body chemistry, and probably would have poorer motor skills at the 26th mile mark.
You get “impaired” if you don’t sleep all night. I don’t think a change in mood, or some functioning ability is neccessarily immoral in itself, unless it prevents you from being able to make moral decisions. I don’t think drinking enough to feel like everyone is your best buddy is neccessarily wrong. On the other hand drinking enough to cheat on your wife and beat your kids would be. I think there’s a difference. Otherwise it would be a sin to run a marathon, because in that case you certainly would fundamentally alter your mood, and change your body chemistry, and probably would have poorer motor skills at the 26th mile mark.
O
onceagain
Guest
Yeah, both are impairing. The problem with marijuana detection is that there really is no foolproof detection method. Someone could’ve smoked earlier in the morning and if he was later tested that night he would still have high THC levels. Does that mean he is still high? Not at all.
Expanding on what I was just talking about, I really wish I had the knowledge to break it down for you on how THC reacts with your body on a chemical level but sadly I was never very good at chemistry
** "Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is generally accepted to be the principle active component- in marijuana, although other cannabinoids are likely to contribute to the physiological activity of marijuana. Tetrahydrocannabinol is rapidly absorbed by inhalation and the gastrointestinal tract . It is almost completely metabolized. The predominant metabolite is 9-carboxy-11-nor-delta-9-THC, which found in the plasma, feces and urine along with other compounds. Very low concentrations of THC may be detected in urine during the initial several hours, but tetrahydrocannabinol persists in urine at a detectable concentration for many days after smoking. **
L
LilyM
Guest
I agree about the social life bit, but a good study will find ways to rule out variables like that. Otherwise, the grapes are an essential part of the wine (or whatever other ingredient in other alcoholic drinks does the trick). The effects don’t appear to be repeatable with, say, grape juice or non-alcoholic drinks, othwerwise we’d be encouraged to give those to our children.
Uh huh. Yes cannabis consumption is legal there, so’s euthanasia, abortion and gay marriage … so’s getting completely and utterly fall-down drunk for that matter … are you suggesting all of those are morally fine as well?
I think I’ll stick to my health-giving, delicious and predictable glass of wine or two at dinner thanks …
- Status