Why is Masonry evil?

[Sixtus]

BJ Pumph posted:

it has the unfortunate consequence of defaming the very Lord you claim to be representing.

The most beautiful picture of the Lord’s Ascention into Heaven with the Apostles looking on, was in the anti-room to a freemason temple. It was beautiful. Never seen such a beautiful picture in any Church or book. I am trying to get hold of a copy.

Ironic that the very group against whom you are so bigotted, are proclaiming the Risen Christ. Does your Church depict His glorified ascention into heaven or is that unique to a freemason temple

Personally, I think it is very dangerious for a believer to condemn another believer. The measure you give to a freemason is the measure of mercy you shall be given by Almighty God Mt 7:1-2

American Masonry’s desire to distance themselves from the “excesses” of Continental Masonry.

Do they? Didn’t know that! I didn’t know America has freemasonry. Don’t know much about it myself.

All proclaim their being one happy union gladly, even if there is a distinct lack of “class” in American Masonry tht is more evident in european masonry…

Do they? Have to take your word for it

York Rite mason, and even Scottish Rite, can, and if honest will, disavow your claim that Masonry has abandoned or otherwise “lost” its religious character

Who are the York Rite and Scottish Rite. Didn’t know there were different rites.

If you do not mind my saying, I would rather you used a small case ‘r’ as there is only one set of ‘rites’ worthy of a capital letter and they are the Rites of Mother Church.

You obviously know a great deal about freemasonry. Are you an ex-freemason?

Do you consider yourself to be better than a freemason?

I do not profess such an expert knowldge. Neither do I profess to be a bigot. All I know is that before Almighty God ALL have sinned. All are deserving of death and all have the potential of resurrection through Christ our Lord.

Before Almighty God, all are equal: Catholic, Athiest, Freemason, Muslim, all are on their respective journey. No man has the right to say that he is closer to God than another, else that would be the sin of pride. Of course, he might be but he is not supposed to be so arrogant as to say so!

If you want to condemn me because I see all men as brothers whether they are freemasons muslims Christian or non-Christian, how about this? Condemn me because it was a sad sin soaked scarlet wretch that I am that led to the King of Kings suffering such ignomous death. Condemn me for that and I will support you:thumbsup:

But please do not condemn me bacause I love my brother regardless of what hat he wears

 

[Hellisreal]

Again I ask, what does the canon lawyer say dear Sixtus?
You made the claim you would ask one.
I have asked and asked for his answer and you have not responded.

 

[thistle]

BJ Pumph posted:

The most beautiful picture of the Lord’s Ascention into Heaven with the Apostles looking on, was in the anti-room to a freemason temple. It was beautiful. Never seen such a beautiful picture in any Church or book. I am trying to get hold of a copy.

Ironic that the very group against whom you are so bigotted, are proclaiming the Risen Christ. Does your Church depict His glorified ascention into heaven or is that unique to a freemason temple

Personally, I think it is very dangerious for a believer to condemn another believer. The measure you give to a freemason is the measure of mercy you shall be given by Almighty God Mt 7:1-2

Do they? Didn’t know that! I didn’t know America has freemasonry. Don’t know much about it myself.

Do they? Have to take your word for it

Who are the York Rite and Scottish Rite. Didn’t know there were different rites.

If you do not mind my saying, I would rather you used a small case ‘r’ as there is only one set of ‘rites’ worthy of a capital letter and they are the Rites of Mother Church.

You obviously know a great deal about freemasonry. Are you an ex-freemason?

Do you consider yourself to be better than a freemason?

I do not profess such an expert knowldge. Neither do I profess to be a bigot. All I know is that before Almighty God ALL have sinned. All are deserving of death and all have the potential of resurrection through Christ our Lord.

Before Almighty God, all are equal: Catholic, Athiest, Freemason, Muslim, all are on their respective journey. No man has the right to say that he is closer to God than another, else that would be the sin of pride. Of course, he might be but he is not supposed to be so arrogant as to say so!

If you want to condemn me because I see all men as brothers whether they are freemasons muslims Christian or non-Christian, how about this? Condemn me because it was a sad sin soaked scarlet wretch that I am that led to the King of Kings suffering such ignomous death. Condemn me for that and I will support you:thumbsup:

But please do not condemn me bacause I love my brother regardless of what hat he wears

Why do you continue to condemn the Church and show blatant disobedience to the Church.
You know the Church’s teachings about Freemasonry. Its an Evil condemned by the Church. Freemasonry and Catholicism are not compatible and a Catholic cannot become a Freemason. If they do they are committing a grave sin.
If you continue to reject this teaching that is heresy!

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Sixtus’ position has taken on a resemblance to that of a Christian who has lost a loved one to suicide, or whose loved one lives an openly gay lifestyle. In such cases, it’s not uncommon for the Christian in question to rationalize the behavior to the point that making such choices could not possibly be a sin, and that those who believe otherwise are bigotted and uncharitable. The desire to “save” the souls of our loved ones in our minds is powerful.

Sixtus, if you have friends or relatives who are Masons, the Church says NOTHING about shunning them or otherwise treating them uncharitably. What is says is that belonging to such organizations is objectively sinful because they profess doctrines in conflict with the Catholic faith.

You said above that you didn’t believe the “spurious documents” that people have been citing in their responses, or that the documents cited are outdated and have been superceded. It would be a good idea to provide support for these claims in the form of citations from Vatican documents.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Trader]

Peace be to you! Play nice.

I think this thread got off to a bad start right from its title.

One of my hobbies is genealogy. I recently discovered that my seventh great grandfather was a mason. He is buried at the Cathedral in Forbach, France with title “Servant of the Church of Forbach.”

Why? He moved from the other side of Germany, on the Austrian-Swiss border to help rebuild the cathedral after it had been destroyed by the Swedish Army(really, Sweden had a real army back then ) in the Thirty Years’ War. In those days masons were skilled craftsmen who were allowed the freedom to cross borders to use their skills for the good of anyone who wished to employ them, hence the title “freemasons.” They were the predecessors of today’s trade unions and kept their wages high by maintaining skills within their guilds that made them more valuable as workers.

Freemasonry as a secret society took their name during the Elightenment because freedom and knowledge were good things. They had plenty of valid complaints against abuses by both civil and religious authorities of those days. Any society that objected to those abuses would require secrecy to survive.

The problem is that in their admiration of freedom and knowledge, they rejected both authority and revealed truth. That is clearly imcompatible with the Catholic Faith, and with other Christians not in full union with us.

Masons today have a lot of variety. Most are as one poster said a “tree-house club for very old men”. Some are more doctrinaire and oppose Catholic teaching directly. Others are strictly secular in nature and couldn’t care less about religious controversy. No one I know thinks that the Shriners are evil for building and supporting hospitals for burn victims.

The problem is that for a Catholic to be a member of a Masonic Lodge even today gives scandal. You cannot profess both Catholic and Masonic teaching any more than you can be both Catholic and Hindu. Catholics can still admire the good deeds of a freemason like George Washington or a Hindu like Mohandas Ghandi. Catholics should not be calling people evil just because they are lacking the same gift of faith we have been given. Our best tool for evangelization is 2000 years old: “See how they love one another.”

 

[Jerry-Jet]

My Father was a Methodist minister and was a Mason who went inactive 30 years before his death.

Does the fact that he was once a Mason make it more likely that he went to Hell instead of Purgatory?

I’m a new convert and ask that question not to argue any point–I’m deeply disturbed that he was once a Mason and Hope that he made it to purgatory.

Is that hope in vain?

 

[Trader]

Hi Jerry,

I like easy questions, and the simple answer to your question is easy.

There is no possible way anyone in this forum can judge the state of your father’s soul. The knowledge necessary to make that judgement is God’s alone.

There are lots of reason for you to hope he is now in heaven.

1. Your father would not have been bound by canon law in this case. For a Methodist to be a Mason was very common and probably would not be a source of scandal.
2. For many people Freemasonry was nothing more than a social club. They were not members for the purpose of denying the revealed truth of Scripture and Tradition.
3. He was not active for more than 30 years. Even if his membership was for the worst of reasons, he may have repented and received the forgiveness God offers all repentant sinners.

Pray for your father. At every Mass the whole Church-that is all joined to Christ through Baptism- prays for all the living and all the dead. That pretty much covers all of us. God’s own Son is there praying with along with you.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Are the Knights of Columbus the direct opposite of the Masons?

 

[Trader]

There are some similarities and some differences. Both are fraternal organizations, and both sometimes wear funny hats. My Dad was a 4th degree member and a Grand Knight for the local council. He would be very upset about the funny hats observation.

In recent years the Knights of Columbus and the Masons have cooperated on local charitable projects. As far as I know, it is only done on a local basis.

The KC’s were begun by a Catholic Priest in America to provide a Catholic alternative to other fraternal and service organizations, and to make life insurance coverage available to recent immigrants who were unable to buy insurance elsewhere.

One of the few requirements is that all members be practicing Catholics. For many years the KC’s have run magazine ads offering information on the Catholic Church and what it believes. It was a positive way to combat anti-Catholic predjudice fed by many years of misinformtion. They also support Catholic education, vocations, and pro life issues. I would not be at all surpised if they also provide support for Catholic Answers. It is the internet version of what the KC’s have been doing for decades.

Only 4th degree members wear the capes, feathered hats, and carry ceremonial swords. These are used when they provide an honor guard for a bishop or march in parades. Most of the year that stuff stays in the closet. Most members are 3rd degree members.

Somewhere my sister has a picture of Dad and the grandfather of my goddaughter serving as an honor guard at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago. The only other people in the picture are their close personal friends, the late Cardinal Joseph Bernadin and Pope John Paul II from the papal visit of 1979.

 

[BobP123]

The problem with Masons etc. is that its meetings, rituals (that’s probably a bad word) and goals of each degree and whats required to make the next degree are not public knowledge.

I’ve heard the gamete of Mason conspiracy theories and I’m not sure how much I believe. I think the major thing for me is the secrecy of the upper degrees that make me wonder.

Right around Vatican II, there were many reported Church clergy with various memberships in the Lodge. Supposedly this was infromation gathered from some of the Grand Masters in the Lodge and there are many websites which “expose” them. But again, membership in any secret society is tough to prove.

 

[Hellisreal]

I agree with Dante.

 

[Icarus210]

The Illuminati was founded in 1776 by a Bavarian university professor named Dr Adam Weishaupt. Although the group’s precise aims are a little murky, the Illuminati were dedicated to orchestration of the abolition of the Pope and the Throne --in short, they were anarchists. They took the philosophy of Rousseau and put it into actual motion.

That was the start of Masonry we know today, Hence why the Catholic Church is so against it. They are believed to have organised the British and French revolutions for that reason.

Lets hope Tony Blair resigns from being the apparant head of the British Masonry before he thinks of becoming a catholic!!!

 

[Abira]

The Illuminati was founded in 1776 by a Bavarian university professor named Dr Adam Weishaupt. Although the group’s precise aims are a little murky, the Illuminati were dedicated to orchestration of the abolition of the Pope and the Throne --in short, they were anarchists. They took the philosophy of Rousseau and put it into actual motion.

That was the start of Masonry we know today, Hence why the Catholic Church is so against it. They are believed to have organised the British and French revolutions for that reason.

Lets hope Tony Blair resigns from being the apparant head of the British Masonry before he thinks of becoming a catholic!!!

In what sense is Tony Blair an ‘apparent’ head of British Masonry??? I’ve never heard this insinuated or seen any evidence of this attitude from him in ten years of him being prime minister. what do you mean?

S

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I’ve resisted the allure of the title question for several weeks but I resist no longer. Someone surely must have asked this question in response to this thread but if they haven’t here goes.

You ask, “Why is Masonry evil?”

Answer, "Why don’t you ask them?

CDL

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

they are decieved into making demonic oath and things go down from there

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

The Illuminati was founded in 1776 by a Bavarian university professor named Dr Adam Weishaupt. Although the group’s precise aims are a little murky, the Illuminati were dedicated to orchestration of the abolition of the Pope and the Throne --in short, they were anarchists. They took the philosophy of Rousseau and put it into actual motion.

That was the start of Masonry we know today, Hence why the Catholic Church is so against it. They are believed to have organised the British and French revolutions for that reason.

Lets hope Tony Blair resigns from being the apparant head of the British Masonry before he thinks of becoming a catholic!!!

yes don’t forget he was ex catholic priest led by devil and they influenced U,S, to be taken off gold standard hoping we would fall

 

[Greg27]

Freemasons are the object of many paranoid conspiracy theories. Jack Chick for example, has a few amusing and interesting cartoons on his site dealing with the idea Masonry is a creation of the evil demon ‘Baphomet’ and that one major Civil War general claimed Masons were actually worshipping Satan (the alleged letter on which it was based was actually a forgery, if one does some sifting and research).

I know a number of Popes have condemned Masonry, mainly because they associated it with Deism and Communism. The actual justice of those accusations though, is something for a historian to research.

 

[BJRumph]

First, the substantive part:

The Freemasons are historically known to have formed their first Grand Lodge in 1717; therefore it is historically innacurate to report that the Freemasons spring from the Bavarian Illuminati post 1776. While the actual date of origin of “Speculative Masonry” is hotly contended within masonic circles, and ranges from the fantastic (Cain or some other pre-noahdic source) to more sober (if no less unverifiable) ideas, such as being really a development of “Operative Masonry” in the 14th to 16th centries; the only really firm historical date is 1717, when the first Grand Lodge is known to have formed, as even aknowledged by actual historians.

Note that being an Operative Mason, such as someone’s mentioned ancestor from the Thirty Years War, is not, and has never been to my knowledge, been anathematized by the Church. (well, any more than any Trade Guild)

Just so we are clear, an “Operative Mason” is someone who actually works in stone & masonry (Like a modern carpenter who you’d call to fix your roof of your house would be called, in similitude, an “Operative Carpenter”). A “Speculative Mason” is merely an adherent of the philosophy that is collectively called Freemasonry, which has nothing really to do with ancient cathedral building, but merely uses masonic trade terms and tools as the framework for their allegorical and symbolic system.

Now for the less substantive, and more personal part:

If P is being sincere in his posts, then yes, Dante is likely correct, in general if not in specificity, regarding P’s posts defending something he now claims no real knowledge of. I do find being called repeatedly and without any actual foundation a bigot who hates his Masonic Brethren hateful itself. While forgivable, it is inexcusable and unfounded. Strange and hypocritical thing coming from someone who claims to be more accepting than myself. Take careful note that, just as I have consistently done, I am addressing behaviours and concrete actions, not the state of anyone’s Soul, a judgement reserved for God Himself.

P, you seem to forget that as Christians, it is our duty to spread the Gospel, which in Christ’s words can often be summed up as “Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”. It is not ours to judge the souls of anyone, as the scriptures make clear; however we are also bound by the same scriptures to help everyone to forsake their sins. Under your corrupted ideology, we cannot perform this critical function lest we offend someone by actually pointing out and teaching the foundational truth that Sin exists, what those sins are, and that we are to avoid it. The basis for such a rejection lie in the belief that there is no revelaed truth; a belief which negates faith in Christ, and the possibility that the Church can even “possibly” be true.

If that is Bigotry, then so be it; for I am in better company than you suppose. Perhaps you should meditate on all of Christ’s teachings more fully before throwing yourself upon half-baked crusades born of relativistic and subjectivistic “liberal” ideologies.

Also; as both a Catholic and a formerly active Mason, I take incredible exception to your corruption of the ideal represented by the phrase “Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God” as being based upon our universal sinfulness. While the fully developed cases for the beleif in both organizations ultimately is incompatable with each other, they are both based upon the positivistic inherent Dignity afforded to all humanity by virtue of its divine origins; not the nihilistic corruptness and degredation of humanity.

Finally, the word “rite” as used in “Scottish Rite” and “York Rite” is part of the proper nomenclature of the respective fields of masonic endeavor. As such it is proper to capitalize it as it is part of its formal name; and is neither a proposal of dignity nor the degradation of such for any rite. Therefore, I am “disinclined to acquiesce to your request”

 

[BJRumph]

Yes, Greg, you are all too correct in your assertion that Fremasonry is the subject of a wide variety of conspiracy theories, some more wild than others, some true, most not.

That is why I personally find it important to try and correct some of the various assertions made against them by my fellow Catholics. Catholics are just as suseptable to crazy theories and wild tales as anyone else, so I think it critical that we try and free the Church’s rejection of Freemasonry from such drivel as found on the likes of Jack Chick publications.

The Church has declared a fundamental, radical, foundational, basic incompatability between the Faith and the “masonic” philosophy. This is objective fact, easily verifiable to anyone honest enough in their research. This is not an especially “moral” judgement, it is a simple fact of the mutual exclusiveness of worldviews. Those, such as myself when I was converting to catholicism, who must know the actual “whys” and “what fors” of this determination from the Magisterium, such can be found as well, but hardly ever is as simple as the wild and fanciful claims you can often find here.

If any Catholic wants to have a meaniful discourse, and a real chance of making a point, with a mason, they have to take the effort of rejecting the silliness they find on various Anti-Mason sites, which sadly appear to be refrenced by all too human author-priests on occasion, causing some eager, but nevertheless objectively wrong apologist to make an assertion of “fact” which every 1st degree mason can refute, and only serve to cast themselves as fringe lunatics which only reinforce the basic Protestant prejudice against catholics.

If Apologetics is theological medicine agains heresy, then perhaps we should remember that ancient, yet very valid oath “First, do no harm…”

Start with the multiple Papal assertions; Canon law; and various other CDF documents, one of which specifically references the “confusion” regarding the matter deriving from the 1980’s edition of the Cannon Law, and reiterates the still valid prohibition, and further clarifies that your local Bishop or Preist do not have the authoritative “competence” to make exceptions, as some dioceses have done (in practice if not by formal decree). ROme has made the position of the Church clear, even if localities have wandered away from such. For the best “reasoning” for the prohibiton, I’d read the letter In Inimentis (spelled wrong, prolly), which tackles the subject of the various philosophical errors made by “modernists”, which are functionally the same propositions of the masonic philosophy, so is incredibly relevant, despite that fact that Freemasonry is not (to my recollection) specifically mentioned.

Also, in regards to some of the simpler statements from the papal documents; it is helpful to bear in mind that the christian masons are either declared protestants, or in the case of “catholic masons” are practical (if not declared) protestants (just ask them to justify their position, and analyze the responses, you’ll see what I mean), so usually operating at such a superficial level is usually fruitless. Try and have them explain it to you/what it means to them, then take it to whatever level they are capable or comfortable with. Make sure terminology is used with the same meaning on both sides!! Also keep in mind that some versions of “protestant christianity” take such stances as to actually not be incompatable with freemasonry, so lots of going in circles happens with certain individuals.

The frustrating/difficult part is in re-educating people that being incompatable with masonry is not a rejection of Freedom or fraternity, as too many people automatically, and falliciously, jump to. Masonry does not have any monopoly on such ideas, yet in order to vilify its opponents (yes, masons are happy to make rhetorical arguments in place of factual ones as anyone else), many masonic apologists fall back to precisely such a position of “well, if you oppose us, you oppose freedom itself!” Silly, but common.

Just me thinks-thoughts

 

[Sixtus]

Greg 27
Freemasons are the object of many paranoid conspiracy theories. Jack Chick for example, has a few amusing and interesting cartoons on his site dealing with the idea Masonry is a creation of the evil demon ‘Baphomet’ and that one major Civil War general claimed Masons were actually worshipping Satan

I agree, knowing several freemasons personally some of whom are Protestant, Catholic, Ministers of Religion and others Agnostic but none athiest, they are in my experience folk who would render assistance to a fellow human being, encourage, support and generally be helpful where they can.

None so far as I am aware, are politically motivated or dislike the Catholic Church much less so conspire against her. All without exception distance themselves from groups which oppose or prejudice Catholicism. One in particular has ‘blackballed’ another who is opposed to the Catholic Church. They were blackballed because of their prejudicial and discriminatory attitude towards a Religious Group. In other words, they took direct action to exclude one whom they did not want among their number because they were anti-Catholic!

Freemasonry doesn’t sound like the lunatic mentality which many Catholics pontificate about.

BJRumph
Senior Member

Re: Why is Masonry evil?
Yes, Greg, you are all too correct in your assertion that Fremasonry is the subject of a wide variety of conspiracy theories, some more wild than others, some true, most not.

That is why I personally find it important to try and correct some of the various assertions made against them by my fellow Catholics. Catholics are just as suseptable to crazy theories and wild tales as anyone else, so I think it critical that we try and free the Church’s rejection of Freemasonry from such drivel as found on the likes of Jack Chick publications.

The Church has declared a fundamental, radical, foundational, basic incompatability between the Faith and the “masonic” philosophy. This is objective fact, easily verifiable to anyone honest enough in their research.

I am aware of a Catholic who is trying to get into a Masonic Lodge but is having difficulty proving his commitment to Christianity. It is not enough that one ‘claims to believe’ in Christ, one MUST prove it and come with good Christian credentials. Not enough to say ‘I believe’, one must be able to prove they practicise Christianity.

I am aware of other Lodges which are specifically Christian and built on a Christian ethos in prayer. Others still where the rite of initiation is based on the Old Testament and beyond Master Mason, the New Testament.

The most beautiful [and only] depiction of Christ’s ascention into Heaven that I have seen, was on the walls of a local freemason anti-room to the temple. In the temple, a beautiful picture adorning a large area of wall with a ladder going from ground to Heaven and the ladder is Christ the only way to the Father! That really impressed me.That was also in total opposition to all I had been told about freemasonry.

I see ‘normal folk’ who are Masons and I hear slander and all manner of culumny against freemasonry from individuals who not only do not love their neighbour but will do anything and everything to increase their burdens and make a miserable life that little bit more difficult to bear. Such apologies has given me an interest and fascination for the objects of criticism and the nature of the critics.

I believe there will be freemasons going ahead of some of us, in getting into heaven but sssh, do not tell Catholics that