Why is Peter considered the first "Pope", if it was James who Peter and Paul answered to?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lion_of_judah
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey,
Your arguments that Augustine wasn’t in communion with Rome and that he didn’t recognize Papal authority are unconvincing
I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth or write lies. It is not very becoming.
 
And why do you think Paul chose Peter of all the Apostles to spend 15 days with at the beginning of his ministry?
St Paul went to St Peter to let him know that he had received the same power as himself.

St Augustine puts these words in St Paul’s mouth:

“I am in nothing inferior to Peter; for we were ordained by the same God for the same ministry.”
 
Mickey: I must call you on this.

Why is this insulting:
Quote:mickey
Originally Posted by Randy Carson
The Orthodox have simply not done this, and though you have maintained Apostolic Succession and a valid priesthood, you simply have failed to demonstrate that you are the One Church of Jesus Christ
.

Your continued spewing of insults shows that you have not much more to say.
40.png
mickey:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson
I applaud your ethnic pride and zeal for your traditions, but the lack of fruit is telling
.

Your continued insults has revealed the stench of rotten fruit
And why is this arrogant?

Quote: mickey
Originally Posted by paul c
I will note, however, in passing, that it is Sad that of the original 5 biggest sees:Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusulem that only Rome is still a Christian city.
May the holy saints and martyrs forgive you for your arrogance.

We were merely pointing out holes in your arguments and there was no lack of charity intended. However, Rather than to counter our arguments, you chose to insult US.
 
St Paul went to St Peter to let him know that he had received the same power as himself.

St Augustine puts these words in St Paul’s mouth:

“I am in nothing inferior to Peter; for we were ordained by the same God for the same ministry.”
Why did he feel he needed to tell Peter anything if Peter wasn’t the leader of the church. and why did he go back 14 years later to insure that he had not been running in vain? And by the way, Acts is clear that Barnabas went to find Paul and that the Church sent him off on his missionary journeys.
 
I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth or write lies. It is not very becoming.
your argument was that St. Augustine didn’t recognize Papal authority, was it not?
Quote: Mickey
Originally Posted by YADA
St Augustine failed to recognize the office of the Bishop of Rome and Chair of Peter - which of course he did …
So you are saying St Augustine is mistaken?
 
The question of the Lord’s triple inquiry of Peter: “Do you love me more…?”

The three challenges to Peter after the resurrection regarding his love for Jesus and command to shepherd in John chapter 21, follow and correspond to the three denials of Peter in chapter 18.

In Luke 22:31-34: “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

The term strengthen means to reassure the other apostles that the one who confessed that “Jesus is the Christ, Son of God” does indeed still believe what he confessed. It would be devastating for them to know of Peter’s denials, so Jesus wants him to strengthen their faith, to reassure them of the strength of his faith.

Only Peter denied Christ, so only Peter required this challenge, and there is no implication of his being appointed to be head of the church on earth. All of the apostles were shepherds.
I imagine you are responding to my posts but your interpretations are twisted or far stretched at best.

Historical accepted interpretation of the verses you referred to:

[15-23] This section constitutes Peter’s rehabilitation and emphasizes his role in the church.

9 [15-17] In these three verses there is a remarkable variety of synonyms: two different Greek verbs for love (see the note on John 15:13); two verbs for feed/tend; two nouns for sheep; two verbs for know. But apparently there is no difference of meaning. The threefold confession of Peter is meant to counteract his earlier threefold denial - John 18:17, 25, 27). These verses define that Jesus after his resurrection gave Peter the jurisdiction of supreme shepherd and ruler over the whole flock.

As an example, this is the translation from the Latin Vulgate;

Luke CH22 31
And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren. 33 Who said to him: Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34 And he said: I say to thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, till thou thrice deniest that thou knowest me. And he said to them: 35 When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, did you want anything?

Now as far as the denial goes, All of the apostles denied Jesus through their abandonment but Peter was the only one who went to see what was happening and placed himself in the position to even be asked.

no disrespect intended, but as far as “…there is no implication of his being appointed to be head of the church on earth.”, I have already posted numerous Scripture texts and quotes from the Early Church Fathers proving the recognized authority of Peter by Jesus and by those who succeeded in the positions of the apostles.
 
Let us look at this quote again by St John Chrysostom:

There was no arrogance in the Church. After Peter, Paul speaks, and none silences him: James waits patiently; not starts up (for the next word). No word speaks John here, no word the other Apostles, but held their peace, for James was invested with the chief rule, and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part.
St John Chrysostom, Homily XXXIII on Acts xv.
Okay. So James would have been the Pope and not Peter.🤷
 
your argument was that St. Augustine didn’t recognize Papal authority, was it not?
No. I believe the qoute you are referring to was the one I posted about the keys–because Yada was trying to show a link to Isaiah 22.
 
I think Catholics read too much into “tending the flock” to make Peter the one and only to shepherd the flock. Peter was to be one of three presbyters in Jerusalem and not a singular bishop there or anywhere and in no sense head of the church on earth. John 21 simply does not say this at all.
The History is there in the Church Fathers to know the answer to that accusation and regardless of what denomination you are associated with, if you refer to the bible you can not discredit the positions of the Church Fathers. That is rediculous.
 
More Fathers understood it as his confession of faith. The Orthodox Church has that interpretation today.
Then it is only proper to ask again what is your assurance/guarantee that these “more fathers’” interpretation adopted by the Orthodox Church “today” is the correct interpretation and all other dissenting fathers are all wrong?
 
If we say to ourselves ’ You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ then we too become Peter, for whoever is united to Christ becomes Peter.
Origen
What did Origen mean in the phrase “we too become Peter” the moment we confess that Jesus is the Son of the liveing God?
 
He was not the first Pope, and you have yet to prove it. As I have stated, historians cannot show that he was bishop of Rome or Antioch. He was an Apostle–we know this. Your quotes show that St Peter was venerated as a great apostle–we know this. Your quotes also show that Rome was the capital of Christianity (when she was still Orthodox) and the bishop of Rome was highly respected–we know this.
Oh ok. Look, here is my answer. Although we can continue this I myself see it as nothing more than a defense of pride in regard to something that should be corrected. As a Catholic of the Latin rite devoted to our Lord, and one who also respects the devotion of the Eastern faithfuI, I realize continuing this is not what Jesus wants, but rather the healing and reuniting of our faith, and I say our faith. you can choose to come back at me with some “poppycock” response but I will refrain realizing it doen’t serve to heal the differences between our Churches to continue the finger pointing. For anyone who wants the answers to this debate, let him read both sides and make his own determination. To all my brothers, let this be the beginning of the end of this defense of pride and practice the humility and love we claim as Christians.
 
The History is there in the Church Fathers to know the answer to that accusation and regardless of what denomination you are associated with, if you refer to the bible you can not discredit the positions of the Church Fathers.
All the apostles are called to tend to the flock.
 
Oh ok. Look, here is my answer. Although we can continue this I myself see it as nothing more than a defense of pride in regard to something that should be corrected. As a Catholic of the Latin rite devoted to our Lord, and one who also respects the devotion of the Eastern faithfuI, I realize continuing this is not what Jesus wants, but rather the healing and reuniting of our faith, and I say our faith. you can choose to come back at me with some “poppycock” response but I will refrain realizing it doen’t serve to heal the differences between our Churches to continue the finger pointing. For anyone who wants the answers to this debate, let him read both sides and make his own determination. To all my brothers, let this be the beginning of the end of this defense of pride and practice the humility and love we claim as Christians.
Amen…
 
Oh ok. Look, here is my answer. Although we can continue this I myself see it as nothing more than a defense of pride in regard to something that should be corrected.
Everyone suffers from ego and pride. It is one of the passions that are particularly difficult to root out.
As a Catholic of the Latin rite devoted to our Lord, and one who also respects the devotion of the Eastern faithfuI, I realize continuing this is not what Jesus wants, but rather the healing and reuniting of our faith, and I say our faith.
This is a discussion board and I am discussing the Orthodox position–and defending it when I have to. I was born and raised in the Latin Catholic Church and changed rites to Byzantine Catholic where I remained for almost a decade. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters and I am very grateful for the foundation that the Catholic Church has given me on my journey.
you can choose to come back at me with some “poppycock” response but I will refrain realizing it doen’t serve to heal the differences between our Churches to continue the finger pointing.
I agree my brother in Christ. Please forgive this sinner.
 
If it is Isaiah 22 you are referencing, I will provide St Augustine again for you.

[Peter] is not the only one among the disciples who is worthy of pasturing the Lord’s sheep. If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphasize unity. Indeed, so that you may know that** it is the Church who has received the keys to the kingdom of heaven**, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all the apostles: ’ Receive the Holy Spirit.’ And later, ‘Anyone whose sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven: anyone whose sins you retain, they are retained’ (Jn 20:22-23).
St Augustine, Sermo 295, 2-8.

**"**He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church."
The City of God, by St. Augustine


In Revelation 3:7 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 22:22 and applies it to himself.
How about quoting the words of St. Augustine attesting to papal supremacy?:rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top