Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

Revelation 7:9-12 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

These are the members of the non-Israelite “elect” who are saved. There seems to be many more non-Israelites who are saved than Israelites since they are not numbered symbolically with cardinal numbers (one, two, three, 144,000, etc.) but are called “a great multitude” instead.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Revelation 7:9-12 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

These are the members of the non-Israelite “elect” who are saved. There seems to be many more non-Israelites who are saved than Israelites since they are not numbered symbolically with cardinal numbers (one, two, three, 144,000, etc.) but are called “a great multitude” instead.

Blessings to you, Hi thank You ,so the 144thousand and the great multitude are in the thousand year reign of christ? Then the devil is locked up for one thousand yrs. How come in 2Thes:2:7-12 he is destroyed at Christ’s comming? Nancy
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

The word purpose is not a “misinterpretation”. Another Bible uses the word “plan” which denotes the same thing.

Different words do not mean the same thing. That’s why there are dictionaries, to denote the subtle differences in meaning between “sufficient” and “successful.”

It’s also vital that whichever version we use, that we should strive to make note of those subtle differences to rightly interpret God’s Word for its proper meaning.

In this particular case, we see that the phrase “counsel of God” is otherwise interpreted “God’s plan.” When we see that, we have a world of Greek scholars at our disposal simply by comparing the various versions. In this case, we can see that what is being conveyed by the phrase is that there are those who listen to God’s counsel, and others who reject His counsel.

In specific, this passage of Scripture is speaking of salvation, and how these learned men were rejecting it. Some people prefer to accept that as meaning that we are rejecting God’s will for our lives, but that is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches concerning predestination in salvation.

benedictus:

You may prefer the King James version but your preference carries no weight…

LOL And neither does yours.

benedictus:

…because it is only YOUR opinion…

Indeed, that is true.

benedictus:

…and unless you are a Biblical and Language scholar competent enough to translate Greek and the Gospel of Luke, then YOUR personal preferences are irrelevant.

A proficiency in Greek is not needed when you study the context of the words, unless you want to insist that the Greek scholars themselves who originally translated the Bible are wrong for choosing the words that they used.

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

Luke 7:19-35 To his miracles in the kingdom of nature, Christ adds this in the kingdom of grace, To the poor the gospel is preached. It clearly pointed out the spiritual nature of Christ’s kingdom, that the messenger he sent before him to prepare his way, did it by preaching repentance and reformation of heart and life. We have here the just blame of those who were not wrought upon by the ministry of John Baptist or of Jesus Christ himself. They made a jest of the methods God took to do them good. This is the ruin of multitudes; they are not serious in the concerns of their souls. Let us study to prove ourselves children of Wisdom, by attending the instructions of God’s word, and adoring those mysteries and glad tidings which infidels and Pharisees deride and blaspheme.

I don’t think I need to say anymore on this subject.

 

[PEPCIS]

Hell is the rejection of and separation from God, willed by man. We’re in “exile” from Him here already, cast out of the garden-we decide if it’s to be a permanent separation or not.

So you don’t believe in hell either? Are all Catholics deniers of hell?

 

[PEPCIS]

Paul is simply stating that we are not to question God’s sovereignty and justice. Notice he says “WHAT IF.”

This is impossible, since the topic was God’s sovereignty over election and choosing who would be called the elect. Esau lost on that round.

Muslims like to claim that the line of succession for believers is reckoned through Ishmael. God says it came down through Isaac, and then through Jacob - not Esau, as some might object.

Salvation is not configured through blood lines, but by God’s decree. (note John 1:10-13)

SHW:

God is Just and He condemns no man unless that man willfully defies God by sinning.

Wrong. Esau was “condemned” simply by God’s decree.

“Hardens” is a way of saying that God chooses to let Pharaoh continue to willfully sin without immediate Divine retribution. He does not force Pharaoh to sin.

Wrong once again. The Bible clearly states that God hardened pharoah’s heart. You twist it to say the opposite.

 

[fhansen]

So you don’t believe in hell either? Are all Catholics deniers of hell?

No, didn’t say anything like that. Permanent or eternal separation is hell.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

Now you need to answer this: Does ANYONE go to hell?

Yes, Adam’s sin condemned us all and made us enemies of God. (Romans 5

)

However, He sent His only begotten Son to save us by His redemptive sacrifice on the cross and we receive the merits of His sacrifice through Baptism.

That’s incorrect. “We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works (baptism, or any other action), lest anyone should try to boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

SHW:

He still loved us even though we alienated ourselves from Him through Adam’s sin. (John 3:16) He chose to have mercy on us and now reconciles each one of us to Him through Baptism.

Baptism is done in an act of obedience for what God has already done for us.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

I missed your question when I first replied.

So enlighten me. How many is all? So now you are saying here that all does not mean “all”?

There are several places in the Bible where the word “all” is used, and the context clearly shows that it does not mean all. For example when it says that Ceaser sent out for all the world to be taxed. Did he tax the whole world, or only those under his control?

 

[PEPCIS]

Whoa … you read too much into this … what does it mean “God be for us” …

It means if God is for us, then the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began.

 

[PEPCIS]

Foreknowledge is knowledge of an event (action) before it happens. It does not determine the action.

You keep on taking it out of context. I purposely laid it all out from Romans 8, and you took it out.

The Bible says, not me, that God’s foreknowledge is based upon his predestination. It does not say that His predestination is based upon His foreknowledge.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Jesus founded the Church, not anybody else.

True. But He gives His authority

to this one Church…

True.

SHW:

…(builds His Church upon Peter as head, and the Apostles also), to be His authority on earth, since He was returning to His Father in heaven.

This is also true, but with the caveat that ALL SAINTS (that would include you and I) have equal authority in performing those duties as they are governed by our position. The Pope is not in charge of who gets to preach God’s Word, and Christ never set it up that way. He told His followers to go preach.

SHW:

Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

Yes, this is a distinctly Catholic interpretation. You are alone in Christendom in that interpretation.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Yes, we all know that we are commanded to “endure to the end.” But the difference is that you claim that man has the power to do this, while I insist that the Bible clearly shows that only God can perform this for man.

Man has the power to do this when he chooses to cooperate

with God’s grace.

Man cannot cooperate with God’s salvational grace. I’m not sure why this verse is not sinking in for you:

[SIGN]“For by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast.”[/SIGN]

You cannot cooperate with saving grace. Only AFTER you have been saved can you begin to cooperate, and even then we must give God ALL THE GLORY for everything that occurs in our lives that is of any good value. I cannot, I MUST NOT, try to take any credit for any goodness that I can produce.

 

[PEPCIS]

Let’s put it this way. You are the main architect and “designed” a super duper sate of the art stadium. If the little workers somewhow did not follow your orders and messed up some of the processes making a rather, shabily built stadium. Your “design” does not change. The end result is not exactly to the standards but your “plan”, your “design” remains the same that, you want to build a stadium. Clear enough?

LOL That’s EXACTLY what I said. But thanks for repeating it.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

The Bible tells us that man “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

We cannot CHANGE the truth of God. No one change the TRUTH OF GOD because God’s TRUTH IS NOT SUBJECT TO MAN.

Romans 1:25 Wicked, unrighteous men “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen”

I don’t know why you argue against me. You should argue against God. He said it, not me, so He ought to know.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Different words do not mean the same thing. That’s why there are dictionaries, to denote the subtle differences in meaning between “sufficient” and “successful.”

It’s also vital that whichever version we use, that we should strive to make note of those subtle differences to rightly interpret God’s Word for its proper meaning.

In this particular case, we see that the phrase “counsel of God” is otherwise interpreted “God’s plan.” When we see that, we have a world of Greek scholars at our disposal simply by comparing the various versions. In this case, we can see that what is being conveyed by the phrase is that there are those who listen to God’s counsel, and others who reject His counsel.

In specific, this passage of Scripture is speaking of salvation, and how these learned men were rejecting it. Some people prefer to accept that as meaning that we are rejecting God’s will for our lives, but that is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches concerning predestination in salvation.

LOL And neither does yours.

Indeed, that is true.

A proficiency in Greek is not needed when you study the context of the words, unless you want to insist that the Greek scholars themselves who originally translated the Bible are wrong for choosing the words that they used.

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

Luke 7:19-35 To his miracles in the kingdom of nature, Christ adds this in the kingdom of grace, To the poor the gospel is preached. It clearly pointed out the spiritual nature of Christ’s kingdom, that the messenger he sent before him to prepare his way, did it by preaching repentance and reformation of heart and life. We have here the just blame of those who were not wrought upon by the ministry of John Baptist or of Jesus Christ himself. They made a jest of the methods God took to do them good. This is the ruin of multitudes; they are not serious in the concerns of their souls. Let us study to prove ourselves children of Wisdom, by attending the instructions of God’s word, and adoring those mysteries and glad tidings which infidels and Pharisees deride and blaspheme.

I don’t think I need to say anymore on this subject.

Hi,I was in another site and I looked up Mortal sins.I was flabergasted,I’d have to be a nun or priest to do all that it says. How could we not be saved by grace? For it is impossible any other way! Nancy

 

[benedictus2]

There are several places in the Bible where the word “all” is used, and the context clearly shows that it does not mean all. For example when it says that Ceaser sent out for all the world to be taxed. Did he tax the whole world, or only those under his control?

In the context of Ceasar yes that is correct all the world does not mean all the world as we know it now. But during that time, the Roman world is all to them.

However, in this verse I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” . ALL means ALL. God desires every man to be saved. But God has given us free will and he will not violate our free will.

I also asked you how many is all where do you find support for that in the Bible, you have not replied to that question.

I also asked you where in the Bible does it say that God changed his design 6000 years ago but you have not replied to that one either.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi,I was in another site and I looked up Mortal sins.I was flabergasted,I’d have to be a nun or priest to do all that it says. How could we not be saved by grace? For it is impossible any other way! Nancy

And who says that the doctine on mortal sins preclude salvation by grace. We are still saved by grace. Do you know what that means? That salvation is free. But so is damnation. We can cooperate with God or we can choose to defy him. Mortal Sin is a grave sin which you do with full knowlege and full consent.

An example is if you violate one of the ten commandments. Say you commit adultery when you know it is wrong but you do it anyway. That is a mortal sin. If you die without repenting of that sin you will be damned because you have defied God by doing something He has expressly told you not to do.

 

[benedictus2]

Again you misunderstand, God is glorified in both His mercy and in His wrath,** with the crucifixion being one of the pinnacles of displaying God’s glory. **

Your understanding of God’s glory is very deficient.
It is not the crucifixion itself that gave glory to God. The cruciftixion is an affront to God. But it is Jesus’s death and resurrection that gave glory to God.

Now, please explain, how does the crucifixion give glory to God?

You just made the statement above that damnation of souls is not bring glory to God (paraphrased).

And where in the quoted verse did it say that damnation of souls give glory to God.?

**How do you know you are chosen? **

BECAUSE GOD CHOSE US ALL. BY THE MERE FACT OF HAVING LOVINGLY CREATED US, FORMED US IN OUR MOTHER’S WOMBS, HE CHOSE US ALL.

**Perhaps you are being judgmental? **

Not judgmental. Just stating something very evident in yourf post. That God is this wrathful God who will send us all to be burned in hell save for some. You think that is justice? Is a psychopath just?

Rightly divide would be a more accurate way to put it.

When you exclude verses that do not support your view (especially when they are just a verse away in the same chapter of the same book) it is NOT RIGHTLY DIVIDE. It is chopping up TRUTH.

You are afraid of verses that show that your belief is a lie.

Much better than falling short.

But that is exactly what you did. When you cut the Bible short, you fell short.

 

[benedictus2]

Different words do not mean the same thing. That’s why there are dictionaries, to denote the subtle differences in meaning between “sufficient” and “successful.”

It’s also vital that whichever version we use, that we should strive to make note of those subtle differences to rightly interpret God’s Word for its proper meaning.

And the version depends on how good the translator is in the language being translated.

In this particular case, we see that the phrase “counsel of God” is otherwise interpreted “God’s plan.” When we see that, we have a world of Greek scholars at our disposal simply by comparing the various versions. In this case, we can see that what is being conveyed by the phrase is that there are those who listen to God’s counsel, and others who reject His counsel.

But that begs the question because you still have not proved that “counsel” is the correct translation since you have not provided any scholarly support for your claim.
Why did the KJV translators use counsel and not purpose’? What was the actual word in greek? Why is counsel a better rendering of that word?

In specific, this passage of Scripture is speaking of salvation, and how these learned men were rejecting it. Some people prefer to accept that as meaning that we are rejecting God’s will for our lives, but that is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches concerning predestination in salvation.

This is Irrelevant. Context depends on the word used. You have first to establish that the word used is the the correct.

A proficiency in Greek is not needed when you study the context of the words, unless you want to insist that the Greek scholars themselves who originally translated the Bible are wrong for choosing the words that they used.

A proficiency in the original language of the Bible IS NECESSARY to be able to translate properly what a particular word means**. If the word is translated wrong, then it will give the wrong context**.

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

Luke 7:19-35 To his miracles in the kingdom of nature, Christ adds this in the kingdom of grace, To the poor the gospel is preached. It clearly pointed out the spiritual nature of Christ’s kingdom, that the messenger he sent before him to prepare his way, did it by preaching repentance and reformation of heart and life. We have here the just blame of those who were not wrought upon by the ministry of John Baptist or of Jesus Christ himself. They made a jest of the methods God took to do them good. This is the ruin of multitudes; they are not serious in the concerns of their souls. Let us study to prove ourselves children of Wisdom, by attending the instructions of God’s word, and adoring those mysteries and glad tidings which infidels and Pharisees deride and blaspheme.

AND WHAT DOES THIS COMMENTARY HAVE TO DO WITH WHETHER THE CORRECT WORD WAS COUNSEL OR PURPOSE?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

And who says that the doctine on mortal sins preclude salvation by grace. We are still saved by grace. Do you know what that means? That salvation is free. But so is damnation. We can cooperate with God or we can choose to defy him. Mortal Sin is a grave sin which you do with full knowlege and full consent.

An example is if you violate one of the ten commandments. Say you commit adultery when you know it is wrong but you do it anyway. That is a mortal sin. If you die without repenting of that sin you will be damned because you have defied God by doing something He has expressly told you not to do.

I do agree with you. Thank You for explaining Nancy