Why is predestination wrong

[PEPCIS]

The reason why people dont beleive in predestination is it does not happen for them when they want it to.The if only people,if only I would have known I would have not let him out that day etc.But it did happen for God predestined in the Bible and I beleive in the word of GodRom:8:29.30 Eph:1:5:1:11 What did he tell Abraham,about all the land and all the nations,that he would be the father of them all.Before it happened (predestioned) Nancy

I like the way that you said that.

 

[PEPCIS]

You have had several comments yourself that are cruising for a banning, so a review of the forum rules would be recommended for both of you. You are required to respect the Catholic faith in order to post here. You don’t have to agree with it, or embrace it, just practice tolerance and civility.

You would do well to mind your own mirror, and stop worrying about others. As you said, there are moderators for that.

 

[benedictus2]

Wow! I thought I was dealing with someone else! Thank you for being…well…good!

I know you don’t get me. You see, if I am wrong I am wrong. That is the bottom line.

But if I think I am right I will hammer that down as well. If the other side can show me my error well I am in error. In this instance I am. No two ways about it.

Too many people talk about being nice and all that sort of stuff. For me when it comes to doctrine, its all about the true and the false. That for me is all that matters.
quote] I’m not sure I understand the significance of “at point of death” comment. Even if man has that opportunity at the point of death, most men don’t.
You don’t know that for a fact. That is only between God and the person. No one else is privy to that. I think we will be quite surprised who we will find in heaven.

I use to think the same, but the older I got, the more realistic I began to understand the depravity of man. There are accounts of men who torture others just for the pure pleasure. Men like Ted Bundy who raped and tortured his victims before he murdered them, some as young as 12 years-old.

I am the other way around. I used to think like that. But as I grew older, I came to realize that God is more merciful and more loving than I believed Him to be.

From a personal experience at a retreat I came to a better knowledge of just how much He loves me. And if He loves me that much I know He must love everyone else as much. I am no more special in His eyes, than you or any other person. He loves us ALL.

Men like Ted Bundy can be forgiven by God if they repent. There have been instances of people on death row who have repented. Otherwise, ministering to those in jail is all pointless.

Let’s put the free will aside for a moment. You still have a quandry because even if they send themselves there, you have to admit that God is the one who makes hell a punishment. Does God really allow this to happen for eternity?

As I have said before no he does not make hell a punishment. It is your concept of hell that is wanting. Hell is only hell because we are separated from God. The punishment or the pain comes from being away from God.
Hell is hell because there is no love there.

But it doesn’t matter! God is THE judge of all the earth.

A JUST AND MERCIFUL JUDGE.

He will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. All liars will have their place in the lake of fire. NO adulterer, or fornicator shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Only because the adulterer and fornicator chose to disobey God. But if you read conversion stories, there are so many fornicators and adulterers who have changed through the grace of God. Sin does not have the last word. God does. And God is love. God’s love changes people.

But if the man refuses, then he must go to hell.

Yes. But as you very well put it, it is the man who refuses. It is not that God is not offering him the grace. The grace is offered. Man refuses.

I am imperfect. One man might choose to send him to hell, and another might choose to let them go. God is the PERFECT JUDGE.

A perfect MERCIFUL AND LOVING God.

But you did not answer my question, would you send your daughter or son to eternal damnation if you have the power to give them the grace to change? I would really like an unequivocal answer from you, personally.

Until you know what unconditional love means it will be hard to imagine a God who loves us UNCONDITIONALLY. But a good place to start is that Christ died for us while we were sinners. Not when we were good. When we were sinners. He died for the sinful world.

Either way, it’s the same. Your hell just isn’t as “bad” as the hell of the Bible.

So you are saying that being away from God is not terrible enough? I cannot conceive of anything more terrifying and more abject, than a place/state without God.

If that is the way you view it, then God for you is not enough. If God is ALL for you then you would realize that to lose God is to lose ALL. Nothing could be worse than that. And that is hell.

 

[benedictus2]

PEPCIS;4761422:

*I guess you are right - we don’t worship the same god. *

You are cruising for a banning.That is equivalent to denying our Christianity.

Actually he is not. As you may have noticed he has a small god. We worship the the one true God.

So yes they are different.

 

[benedictus2]

That is an excellent observation, Nancy. (Wo)Man cannot be saved outside of Grace. Good works do nothing toward salvation, but are a result of it.

If that is true that means that once you are “saved” or as you say it “born again” then that means you cannot do evil. You can only do good.

Can you say for fact that all who have been born again have only ever done good works and not evil?

 

[benedictus2]

God’s desires are not God’s will. Therefore, “all men” will NOT be saved. Of course, you probably believe that all men will EVENTUALLY be saved.

Let me get this straight. You are now saying that God desires something but He does not actually WILL it. So He desires for all men to be saved, but He does not Will for all men to be saved?

Why would He not Will it if He desires it? Your idea of a god is getting stranger and stranger.

God is not going to save “all.” The Bible teaches that. I’m not sure that showing that to you will convince you, though it should.

My question is how many is ALL and I asked for a Bible verse. I think this is the third time I have asked that. So please give me the verse. I won’t ask you for the verse if I don’t want to know.

I didn’t intend to say that God ever changed His design, and I think I have already cleared that up in our other discussion.

You may not have intended to say it but that is what you said. So now we are clear that He did not change his design.

But I am still in the dark as to where you got the figure of 6000 years.

 

[benedictus2]

That’s always been the argument of the folks that don’t get it; even within a Protestant community. But because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it is not taught in Scripture, the “election”, not the “monster god”.

But that is precisely my point. Your “concept” of election is the one that is faulty not “election” itself.

Your “concept” or the way you understand election is the one that comes up with the monster god.

Wel also believe in election, but the way we understand election does not in any way come up with a monster god.

 

[benedictus2]

The reason why people dont beleive in predestination is it does not happen for them when they want it to.The if only people,if only I would have known I would have not let him out that day etc.But it did happen for God predestined in the Bible and I beleive in the word of GodRom:8:29.30 Eph:1:5:1:11 What did he tell Abraham,about all the land and all the nations,that he would be the father of them all.Before it happened (predestioned) Nancy

Sorry to say this but this post does not make any sense. Predestination relates to be being chosen for heaven and has nothing to do with what happens to you here on earth like knowing that someone is going to get hit by a bus so you don’t let him out of the house. That is not what predestination is all about.

 

[SHW]

Here are a couple of observations:

1. Jesus says that He has been given authority over all men, and that those men whom He gives eternal life to will NEVER perish, and that once they are given to Him in His hand, that no one could ever possibly snatch them out of His hand.

It doesn’t say “They never ever get into God’s hand unless they are going to be saved in the end.” That’s saying the OPPOSITE of what Christ said.

What I said is not in opposition to what the verse said. I am giving more details since I studied other scriptures pertaining to this subject and my conclusion is based on all of these verses, not just the one verse you keep quoting.

• Christ says that they are placed in His hand, and once they are placed there that God protects them from any who would try to snatch them out of His hand.

I agree with what Christ states. I disagree with you as to how they get into His hand in the first place. Christ does not state how this happens in this one verse.

• You say that if men work hard all their lives, and if they are lucky, that their good works will place them in Jesus’ hand. By your reckoning, if men are placed into Jesus’ hand, that they can pluck themselves out by not performing well. If they are influenced by the devil, the devil can snatch them out of God’s hand.

Luck has nothing to do with it. No one can pluck themselves out of God’s hand. Once you are in God’s hand, you cannot be plucked out. But our disagreement is that I believe that after God foresaw with His foreknowledge every act of ours for our entire lives on earth before we were born, that our future free will actions determined whether God placed us into His hand in the first place. He predestined us to eternal life as a result of His foreknowledge of every event and action of our life.

1. Once again, you choose to use one verse to antagonize against another verse, instead of reconciling the two in harmony. The question is not “which of these verses tells the truth.” You are constantly pitting one verse against another. That is not good Biblical exegesis.

The reconciliation is found in asking the question: “Who is it that will endure unto the end?” The answer: “All those who have been given unto the Son.”

It is true that all those who have been given to the Son will endure to the end. What we disagree on is God’s criterion for giving them to the Son in the first place. Once God gives them to His Son, they are saved forever.

We will have to agree to disagree. Jesus gives eternal life to those whom His Father gives Him. That one verse that you keep quoting does not have to have every detail about salvation in it and indeed it does not. IF you look at all the verses pertaining to salvation you will find that there is more to it than just believing that Jesus will save you (John 3:16). Scripture also says that you must be baptized in order to actually wash away your sins. (Acts 22:16). (1 Corinthians 6:11) explains that baptism sanctifies you. (Romans 11:22) states that we must continue in God’s goodness/kindness in order to continue to be saved. If we do not continue (endure to the end) then we will be cut off (damned).

I believe that God only gives those persons to Jesus (and puts into His own hand and into Jesus’ hand) only those persons who will be faithful to Christ until their deaths. He saw who these persons were before they were born with His foreknowledge and that is why they are elect, only because of the foreknowledge of God the Father.

I believe this, because the Father saw every future event of every person’s life before the world was created. He predestined because of (according to) this foreknowledge. He did not cause it to happen. He saw the future before it happened. This is what foreknowledge is: knowledge of future events.

1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

What did God foresee in His foreknowledge that made Him decide whether to predestine some persons for eternal life?

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

We have to love Jesus. How do we love Jesus? To love Jesus, we must keep His commandments. If we keep His commandments then God the Father will love us and put us into His hand.

God foresaw in His foreknowledge those who would love Jesus and endure in their love for Him until their deaths. Only these did He predestine for eternal life. Only these did He place into His hand. So no one can ever snatch them out of His hand because He put only those persons into His hand who were going to be saved in the end.

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.”

The Father saw who would obey His commandments before they were born. If they were going to obey them, then He predestined them to eternal life and He also placed them into His hand.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding that there are two dimensions: God knows our final destination because He is omniscient (knows all things). We can not know this until we die and therefore Paul exhorts us “to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12)

Blessings to you.
SHW

 

[SHW]

What kind of rubbish is that?

1. 
   *]These Scriptures are BOTH speaking of the same subject of the salvation of men.
   *]All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness." (2 Tim. 3:16) You cannot relegate some portions of Scripture to a lesser status of “oral teaching” that is somehow not as important as other passages of Scripture.

1. 
   All Scripture is profitable and useful. All Scripture is true. The problem is the interpretation of Scripture. Who has the authority to interpret Scripture when there is disagreement? The Church.
   (Matthew 18:15-18) The Church has final authority. If a person refuses to listen to the Church, he is to be treated as a pagan or a tax collector according to Jesus.
   
   We must adhere to both oral teaching which is passed down from the Apostles through His Church and also Scripture. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” The Church used its authority to decide which writings were inspired by God and which were not. Those which the Church believed to be inspired were put into a book which we call the NT. The Bible is not greater than the Church. The Bible is a tool of the Church and the Church uses it to help teach its members about the Gospel of Jesus.
   
   Jesus gave His authority to the Church, not to the Bible. He states in Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
   
   Blessings to you,
   SHW

 

[benedictus2]

So do you say that the translators of the NIV or the Catholic Bible are better or worse than other translators?

All I am saying is that if you are going to say that the KJV version is better you better come up with the fact to support your claim.

Case in point is my post 263.

You are using the KJV. But even the New KJV has rendered Romans 1:25 as “exchage” rather than “change”.

There is no need for “scholarly support.” The Bible translators have already done that. Now it is up to us to use our God-given talents to properly understand His Word.

But how do you know which Bible Translator translated it correctly when there are different renderings of the same verse?

Because they believed it to best convey the meaning of the original Greek. “Counsel of God” defines more of a generalized understanding of God’s overall purpose for man concerning His salvation and how he should live and conduct himself, whereas “plan” is more restrictive, defining a specific course of action.

But the THEY you are referring to may not be correct in their understanding.

 

[benedictus2]

I should note that we both should be very careful how we speak about the God that we worship. If I really believe you to be a follower of the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, then I need to treat Him with respect, and not refer to Him as anything other than a wonderful and Glorious Father.

I am sorry for how I worded that.

You don’t get it at all.

What I am saying here is that based on your utterances on this thread, based on your posts, if you follow the logic of everything that you have said, the god that you painted with your words is a psychopath.

If you go through my responses, all that I have been trying to show is that you have a very erroneous image of God.

So if I call the god you describe in your post as a psychopath, it is only because that is how you painted him to be.

You described him. I only put an appropriate label.

 

[benedictus2]

It means if God is for us, then the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began.

So let’s take a look at this statement of yours in detail.

"If God is for us. "- Of course He is for us. Why else would He create us if He is not for us. Why else would He die for all of us in the first place. Remember, He died for us when we were still sinnners.

"hen the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began."

First what is it that He began. If we speak of the life, death and resurrection of Christ, what He began is the salvation of all men.

So following from the above, if He is for all of us then no one can overcome what He began, i.e. the salvation of all men. Therefore no one can stop the salvation of all men.

If no one can overcome that, therefore all men will be saved?

 

[benedictus2]

He decides that he will award those who do the best job, and he gives all those who he identifies as being concientious a $1,000.00 bonus. The rest get nothing but their regular wages.

What is the regular wages? Is it damnation?

 

[benedictus2]

Because the Bible says so. It’s not a matter of some being given to Christ, while others having a tougher time of it. All those who have NOT been given to Christ WILL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

But that is just the point. We have all been given to Christ. For the very reason that God gave Christ authority over ALL of us, we have ALL been GIVEN TO HIM.

That is what you fail to see when you read those verses. God says here’s all of my creation, they’re are all yours.

Jesus says that there are even some who will try to claim works of righteousness in order to be approved and enter into heaven - just like the doctrines that you profess of working your way into heaven - and they will come to Him in “that day” and say,

Which is totally unrelated to the matter at hand. This has more to do with whether belief alone in him is enough. This is not about predestination.

Of course it does. You are choosing, based solely upon Church propaganda, to deny the Scriptures a plainly read interpretation, choosing instead to modify the meaning to incorporate the understanding that everyone gets to heaven.

No I am not. I am relying on what scripture says. Tell me where abouts in this verse does it contradict what I have written. I am arguing my point based solely on the text of the verse that you quoted.

John 17:1-2 clearly states that Jesus will save only those whom God has given to Him. Not the whole world.

But God has given Him the whole world. That is why He is Lord of Heaven and Earth.

[sign]“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”[/sign]

This verse is not about predestination. This is about Jesus praying for unity in His Church. He is praying that those who will be called into His Church will be united. A prayer that somehow the protestants have shot to pieces.

You’re still trying to interpret Scripture by Catholic dogma. You can’t do that. Let’s try it this way. It’s like you are the son of the owner of a shoe factory. The owner wants to step back and take less responsibility for the day-to-day operations, and so he gives his son all authority over the whole plant, and over everyone that works there.

The son decides that he wants to tour the plant and see what is happening, and he notices that there are some employees who are doing an excellent job, and are truly concerned about doing the best job that they can for the owner. But he also sees that there are some who come in late and leave early, and do sloppy work, and make a mess of their work areas.

He decides that he will award those who do the best job, and he gives all those who he identifies as being concientious a $1,000.00 bonus. The rest get nothing but their regular wages.

All authority has been given to the son (the new plant owner/manager), but he only gave SOME the $1,000.00 bonus.

All authority has been given to the Son (the only begotten Son of God) over all men, but He only gives eternal life to those whom God has given Him - not to all that He has authority over. There is a HUGE difference.

You know what is funny about your analogy? You are preaching here a SALVATION BY WORKS. Those who did a good job gets rewarded. And the good job was entirely dependent on the person. Nothing

Secondly, your analogy does not apply because the handing of the factory to the son is not like the way God handed over the whole world to His son. The Son by His life, death and ressurection has taken over the factory with a bagfull of graces for everyone so that everyone may do their work well. Some may decide to say no thanks to the graces being offered by the Son but the Son hands out the graces anyway. It is just up to the worker to take it.

 

[PEPCIS]

God does not hate sinners. God hates sin. If God hated sinners He would not have died for us.

The fact that He died for us while we were still sinners (as St Paul said) means that He loves sinners.

He came for the sinners. He himself said that. He came for the sick not the healthy.

[/quote]

For sure, God does hate sin. “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” (Jeremiah 44:4) And Proverbs list seven things that the Lord hates. (Proverbs 6:16-19) Two of those things that God hates are “a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.” Those are PEOPLE that God hates, not just the sin itself.

I like the way that John Gerstner puts it, when he says:

[SIGN]"“Repent or Perish” forces people to ponder seriously the popular slogan, “God hates the sin and loves the sinner.” Is a necessary repentance consistent with “God loves the sinner?” If God loves the sinner while he is alive, it is strange that God sends him to hell as soon as he dies. God loves the sinner to death? Loves him to everlasting torment?"[/SIGN]

Why should it be that God cannot love with an everlasting love? Why and how does He shut his love off for those who have died without repenting? Can they not repent in the next life when it suddenly becomes clear to them?

Gerstner continues:

“God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could. He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) “The thoughts and intents of his heart are only evil continually.” (Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34), the servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).”

As God says:

[SIGN]"I hate them with a perfect hatred.” (Ps. 139:22)[/SIGN]

If God loved everyone with the same love, then “Whom the Lord loves He chastens.” (Heb. 12:6,7) would apply to everyone!

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Romans 1:25 Wicked, unrighteous men "changed the truth of God into a lie

, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen"

Only because of a ridiculous rendering of this statemeint in YOUR Bible.

LOL You’re a peach! You tell me that words don’t matter, and now you tell me that they do? Which is it?

I agree with you that words matter (hopefully you’ll stay with me tomorrow in believing that the choice of words really does matter).

The fact is, change and exchange are often “exchanged” for one another. For example, we might say: “He got change for a twenty and used it to pay the taxi driver.” He EXCHANGED money for a ride. An EXCHANGE took place whereby the rider changed his money into a ride.

Dictionary definitions include “exchange or replace with another, usually of the same kind or category.” For example, “He changed his name.” In other words, he exchanged “Saul” for “Paul.”

benedictus:

And you know what I also looked up the rendering in the NIV and NKJV and they both read: “EXCHANGE”.

That’s because they both used similar texts as the basis of their translation. It’s interesting that NEWER versions of the Bible used more contemporaneous and idiomatic language in an effort to make it easier to understand by the “regular” folk. Can you imagine that??

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Jesus says that there are even some who will try to claim works of righteousness in order to be approved and enter into heaven - just like the doctrines that you profess of working your way into heaven - and they will come to Him in “that day” and say…

No, Pepcis. You have misunderstood the doctrines we profess.

No, I don’t think so. I’ve mapped it out quite well from your own statements. If your statements don’t match up to Catholic dogma, then perhaps you ought to change what you say.

guanophore:

You are accusing Catholics of something the Catholic Church does not teach.

I am accusing Catholics of something that they teach. If it doesn’t conform to Catholic dogma, then THEY need to change, not me.
guanaphore:

If you are going to malign the Apostolic Faith, it would be better if you maligned what we actually believe, rather than what you erroneously imagine that we do.

I am simply going by what all of you collectively have stated. benedictus has repeatedly stated a belief in works-righteousness, as well as SHW. If you need to MAINTAIN your salvation, it is no different than bringing yourself salvation, since salvation is NEVER complete (according to your own testimony) UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, and your works have been balanced out to see if you did enough good to make it into heaven.

If you are relying on your works to maintain your goodness, you’ll have a very rude awakening “in that day.”

guanaphore:

I agree with this statement, but I think you erroneously believe that Catholics embrace this, which is not the case.

Hardly. SHW says: “We must endure to the end of our lives “in Christ” in order to actually receive our “promise” of eternal life.”

You are choosing, based solely upon Church propaganda, to deny the Scriptures a plainly read interpretation, choosing instead to modify the meaning to incorporate the understanding that everyone gets to heaven.

guanaphore:

No, actually, there is no need for this.

Actually, there is, because that’s the ONLY WAY that you can make the Scriptures say something that they don’t say. Maybe you don’t agree with SHW and benedictus that you must work to get to heaven?

 

[SHW]

This had to be predestined POPE BENEDICT says LUTHER RIGHT.breakingchristiannews.com…ftml?ld=6341 Nancy

I think we can all agree, Catholic and Protestant alike, that persons who are going to heaven were predestined to go there. The remaining question is this: What criterion did God use in order to predestine them?

1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Peter states that the elect were chosen according to (because of, or as a result of) God’s foreknowledge. Peter also stated that God judges without partiality. This means that God saw all of every person’s free will actions before He created them. Because of what He saw by His foreknowledge, He predestined some persons to heaven.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

Peter states that God judges everyone without favoritism. He judges their works only.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Paul is stating that those that God foreknew (to be in fellowship with Him is implied) by His foreknowledge, He also predestined.

So what Peter and Paul are saying is that God saw, with His foreknowledge, everyone’s actions that they would do after they were born and all throughout their lives. As a result of seeing all of this before He created us, He judged each of us without favoritism because He only judged our works. As a result of His impartial judgment, He only predestined for eternal life those who would still be in fellowship with Him at their deaths.

The foreknowledge came first, the judgment next, and the predestination last. God knew who would be saved before He created us. However, we don’t know with absolute certainty if we are saved until we die.

Blessings to you.
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

I know you don’t get me. You see, if I am wrong I am wrong. That is the bottom line.

I am beginning to “get you.”

benedictus:

Too many people talk about being nice and all that sort of stuff. For me when it comes to doctrine, its all about the true and the false. That for me is all that matters.

Good, cause that’s the same place that I’m at. The only thing is what we use as the arbiter of what is Truth.

I’m not sure I understand the significance of “at point of death” comment. Even if man has that opportunity at the point of death, most men don’t.

benedictus:

You don’t know that for a fact. That is only between God and the person. No one else is privy to that. I think we will be quite surprised who we will find in heaven.

What I do know is that not everyone will make it to heaven. That tells me that there will surely be many who will die before they repent.

I use to think the same, but the older I got, the more realistic I began to understand the depravity of man. There are accounts of men who torture others just for the pure pleasure. Men like Ted Bundy who raped and tortured his victims before he murdered them, some as young as 12 years-old.

benedictus:

I am the other way around. I used to think like that. But as I grew older, I came to realize that God is more merciful and more loving than I believed Him to be.

Well, that doesn’t make any sense to me. How can God be any more merciful than He is. God’s mercy is perfect mercy. But that mercy is mitigated by His Justice and His retribution.

Not only that, but it fails to agree with what you have previously stated. Previously, you have stated that you believe that the power to choose salvation is ultimately in man’s hand. God proffers it, but man must exercise it. This may be true, but it means that there will be many men who will fail to exercise their choice for God. That will negate the mercy of God, because God’s mercy will make no matter if man does not avail himself of it.

benedictus:

From a personal experience at a retreat I came to a better knowledge of just how much He loves me. And if He loves me that much I know He must love everyone else as much. I am no more special in His eyes, than you or any other person. He loves us ALL.

Yes, He loves all His people. And that is Biblical language which does not include the whole world.

Not to mention, What kind of a loving God would He be if the wicked were never punished, and were allowed to continue to persecute and prey upon the people?

Let’s put the free will aside for a moment. You still have a quandry because even if they send themselves there, you have to admit that God is the one who makes hell a punishment. Does God really allow this to happen for eternity?

benedictus:

As I have said before no he does not make hell a punishment. It is your concept of hell that is wanting.

I’m using Biblical language to denote that Hell is a place where the fire burns, the worm that eats flesh does not die, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .for I am tormented in this flame. . .I pray thee. . .that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house. . .that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ” Luke 16:23, 24, 27, 28)

Jesus: “And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE…” (Matthew 13:42)

Jesus says: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE. . .” (Matthew 25:41)

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.” (Rev. 20:15)

What’s important to keep in mind through all of these Scriptures is that Jesus confirmed that EVERYONE gets resurrected to one of two different eternities: one is heaven, the other is hell. Both are very real places.

[SIGN]"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)[/SIGN]

benedictus:

Hell is only hell because we are separated from God. The punishment or the pain comes from being away from God. Hell is hell because there is no love there.

Many people will wish that were true when their resurrection occurs.