Why is predestination wrong

[NonCatholic]

benedictus2:

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Actually we’ve gone through that before and you have not proven that water baptism is not required. Because Scripture clearly says it is.

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When people are baptised it is God who sends His Holy Spirit. But He willed / chose to do the sending of the Holy Spirit this way. By water Baptism.

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If that were true and it is not because Scripture does not teach it; the proof that refutes it is very simple. Ever met anyone who was water baptized and is unregenerate? I’ll go out on a limb and say that most people that are water baptized are not and won’t ever be saved. Why would I say such a thing? What proof of such a thing?

 

[NonCatholic]

You are misunderstanding Romans 9 if you are using this to support your view.

Put it this way. God’s WILL for us is found in the Ten Commandments.

If man cannot oppose God’s will, then there should not be anyone alive who has broken the Ten Commandments. And yet here we are in our billions, breaking each and everyone one of those on a daily basis.

**
What does the Bible say is the purpose of the law?** I’m going to send you a link via PM for a thread we are doing on "knowing God’s Will"

 

[benedictus2]

What does the Bible say in this regard?

John 17 "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me

John 6 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day

**Should we go to Romans? **

You do not understand the things of God and this is of grave concern.

Maannn! I have no quarrel with these verses at all. You keep missing the point.

We were not given AS LOVE GIFTS to His Son. We were simply given to His Son. For what pupose? For His Son to SAVE.

We were given to His Son so His Son can save us.

It is your calling us “love gifts” from the Father to the Son that is highly contentious and erroneous.

 

[benedictus2]

**If that were true and it is not because Scripture does not teach it; the proof that refutes it is very simple. Ever met anyone who was water baptized and is unregenerate? **

No. That is if the baptism is in “The name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit”.

At the moment of baptism, they were compeltely re-generated. If they had died at that point they would have gone straight to heaven.

**I’ll go out on a limb and say that most people that are water baptized are not and won’t ever be saved. **

And there is a chance you will be right there because **if **they continue to sin after their baptism and if before death commited a mortal sin, and **if they failed to repent of this sin, **then yes, they will end up in hell even though they have been baptized.

But notice the ifs.

Will they be most of the baptized? I doubt it.

**Why would I say such a thing? **

Because you have an erroneous concept of salvation?

What proof of such a thing?

None.

 

[NonCatholic]

Maannn! I have no quarrel with these verses at all. You keep missing the point.

We were not given AS LOVE GIFTS to His Son. We were simply given to His Son. For what pupose? For His Son to SAVE.

We were given to His Son so His Son can save us.

It is your calling us “love gifts” from the Father to the Son that is highly contentious and erroneous.

We may have to go to Romans: There is a love relationship within the Trinity; that we can hardly begin to comprehend. Yes Jesus saves us, but for what purpose? One thing we can see from John 6 and John 17 is that we were given by the Father to the Son; that’s a gift. Since the ones the Father give to the Son are the one’s chosen by the Father, but why? The Son will; I believe give back to the Father to worship and glorify Him forever. Romans 8 gives a good picture of this, but I’m not sure how far I want to go with this because it will take some time and I’m not sure a can use just a few words to develop it as it needs to.

 

[benedictus2]

We may have to go to Romans: There is a love relationship within the Trinity; that we can hardly begin to comprehend. Yes Jesus saves us, but for what purpose? One thing we can see from John 6 and John 17 is that we were given by the Father to the Son; that’s a gift. Since the ones the Father give to the Son are the one’s chosen by the Father, but why? The Son will; I believe give back to the Father to worship and glorify Him forever. Romans 8 gives a good picture of this, but I’m not sure how far I want to go with this because it will take some time and I’m not sure a can use just a few words to develop it as it needs to.

Each of us are gifts of God to each other. But we are not gifts of God to His Son or even the other way around.

We give a gift because we love the receiver. But in this case, even though there is love between the Father and Son, we are not given to the Son because of His love for the Son but because of His love for us. When we were given to the Son, it is the love for us that is the reason for our being given to Him.

 

[SHW]

Except for this little thing called “predestination.” Apparently, it’s ok if God looks down the corriders of time, and sees that someone chooses Him, and so He predestinates that person to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as long as you don’t have to say that He looks down the corriders of time, and sees that someone rejects Him, and so He predestinates that person to enter Hell.

It is impossible to be “predestined” to hell. There is no such thing. We are condemned to hell; we are never predestined to hell.

Our sins condemn us. Jesus judges but our own sins condemn us.

Matthew 12:36-38 “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Titus 3:10-11 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

James 5:9 “Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

It is impossible to be “predestined” to hell. There is no such thing. We are condemned to hell; we are never predestined to hell.

Our sins condemn us. Jesus judges but our own sins condemn us.

Very important differences that need emphasizing.

But without taking into account FREE-WILL, the difference is very easy to miss. And this is something that Pepcis keeps steering clear of.

One needs to understand that the dillema that theologians faced from Augustine to Acquinas to Molina is precisely the subtleties in the interplay between grace and free will.

 

[guanophore]

You do not understand the things of God and this is of grave concern.

It is so generous of you, Non, to be so gravely concerned about our souls. It is kinda odd, since you have indicated that we worship a different god, and are caught up in a reprobate system of death, etc, etc. Nevertheless, you seem to be seeking and saving the lost, because you believe there is remnant from among Catholics that belong to God.

Ever met anyone who was water baptized and is unregenerate?

No, but there are many whose last state is worse than their first, because they spurned the Blood of the one who bought them.

I will go out on a limb an say that most people that are water baptized are not and won't ever be saved.  Why would I say such a thing?  What proof of such a thing?

you say that because you reject the Apostolic Teaching about baptism!

 

[benedictus2]

We may have to go to Romans: There is a love relationship within the Trinity; that we can hardly begin to comprehend. Yes Jesus saves us, but for what purpose? One thing we can see from John 6 and John 17 is that we were given by the Father to the Son; that’s a gift. Since the ones the Father give to the Son are the one’s chosen by the Father, but why? The Son will; I believe give back to the Father to worship and glorify Him forever. Romans 8 gives a good picture of this, but I’m not sure how far I want to go with this because it will take some time and I’m not sure a can use just a few words to develop it as it needs to.

Each of us are gifts of God to each other. But we are not gifts of God to His Son or even the other way around.

We give a gift because we love the receiver. But in this case, even though there is love between the Father and Son, we are not given to the Son because of His love for the Son but because of His love for us. When we were given to the Son, it is the love for us that is the reason for our being given to Him.

Here is something to clarify the point I am trying to make in my above post.

Let us say PersonA is terminally ill and has a child that she wants to put up for adoption before she passes away. When she gives that child to the adoptive parents, the child is not a gift to the parents, rather it is the adoptive parents that becomes a gift to the child from the perspective of PersonA because without them the child would be without a family to love her.

 

[benedictus2]

Well, here’s what the Bible says about hell:

• It is not just eternal destruction or separation from God, but includes constant torment. (Rev. 20:10)

The torment stems from our separation from God because God is the source of all being, all that is beautiful, all that is good, all that makes us happy, all that makes life worth it. God is ALL.

When we lose God through damnation we lose all that is beautiful, good and true. We lose life.

You know how people commit suicide when they feel they’ve lost everything so they have nothing else to lose? When everything is so black, joyless, and there is nothing but constant pain?

Losing God is like that compounded millions of times, only you cannot even kill yourself to stop the pain because you are already dead. That is hell.

 

[dkdempsey]

I don’t think it is wrong, but more like a question of not really existing, kind of like reincarnation. Both just don’t make sense. I believe that God gave us free will.

 

[SHW]

The torment stems from our separation from God because God is the source of all being, all that is beautiful, all that is good, all that makes us happy, all that makes life worth it. God is ALL.

Losing God is like that compounded millions of times, only you cannot even kill yourself to stop the pain because you are already dead. That is hell.

Yes, the separation from God would be a constant torment because God is Love and there is no love or consolation in hell. Hell is also fire. Hebrews 10:26-28, Revelation 20:15

Revelation 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

Yes, the separation from God would be a constant torment because God is Love and there is no love or consolation in hell. Hell is also fire. Hebrews 10:26-28, Revelation 20:15

Revelation 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Blessings,
SHW

Scott Hahn has an interesting take on this. He says that Heaven is hotter than hell because God is described as an all consuming fire.

 

[NonCatholic]

Scott Hahn has an interesting take on this. He says that Heaven is hotter than hell because God is described as an all consuming fire.

He shows his ignorance if indeed he said that. A lot of people like quoting him, but he will know the real heat. Do you think he is correct that heaven is hotter than hell?

 

[NonCatholic]

No. That is if the baptism is in “The name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit”.

At the moment of baptism, they were compeltely re-generated. If they had died at that point they would have gone straight to heaven.

And there is a chance you will be right there because **if **they continue to sin after their baptism and if before death commited a mortal sin, and **if they failed to repent of this sin, **then yes, they will end up in hell even though they have been baptized.

But notice the ifs.

Will they be most of the baptized? I doubt it.

Because you have an erroneous concept of salvation?

None.

**Consider the words of the Lord; he is talking to religious people; like yourself, then reconcile it to my previous post about most people are baptzied and will not enter into heaven:

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Notice there are many who are on the broad road; are you one of them? These are the same religious people that say they do this and that for the Lord and He will say “depart from me, you who practice lawlessness”. Are you one of them?

Notice that there are the few on the narrow path; the one I am on. Also notice there a few who “find it”. Why do you suppose the Lord contrasts the many and the few; more importantly, which path are you on? Are you sure? If not, why**?

 

[ncgolf]

Notice that there are the few on the narrow path; the one I am on.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector … Luke 18:9-14

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[PEPCIS]

But that is precisely my point. Your “concept” of election is the one that is faulty not “election” itself.

Your “concept” or the way you understand election is the one that comes up with the monster god.

Wel also believe in election, but the way we understand election does not in any way come up with a monster god.

The way that you stated this is a great illustration of the difference between you and I. I accept the Biblical understanding of predestination driving God’s foreknowledge, whereas you create your own understanding of God’s foreknowledge driving predestination. The Bible is crystal clear regarding the ordo salutis.

 

[PEPCIS]

"Nancy:

What did he tell Abraham,about all the land and all the nations,that he would be the father of them all.Before it happened (predestioned) Nancy

Sorry to say this but this post does not make any sense. Predestination relates to be being chosen for heaven and has nothing to do with what happens to you here on earth like knowing that someone is going to get hit by a bus so you don’t let him out of the house. That is not what predestination is all about.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with being here on earth, because it is our EARTHLY ACTIONS which speak of our HEAVENLY destinations.

Old Testament Israel entering into the Promised Land is a PICTURE of how God enacts salvation. In the OT, it was the salvation of a nation which rejected Him. In the NT, it is the salvation of a world that rejects Him.

p.s. don’t get hung up on the terminology that I used (“salvation of a world that rejects Him”) because I use those words differently than you do!

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

It means if God is for us, then the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began.

So let’s take a look at this statement of yours in detail.

[SIGN]"If God is for us."

[/SIGN]
Of course He is for us. Why else would He create us if He is not for us? Why else would He die for all of us in the first place? Remember, He died for us when we were still sinnners.

I NEVER said that He was not for us. The question (may I remind you?) which Paul said, not me, is a RHETORICAL question. We KNOW that God is for us, therefore, if God is for us, then who, or what, could possibly be against us? Who could have the power to stop the work which God has begun?? Answer: NOBODY!

[SIGN]“then the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began.”[/SIGN]
First what is it that He began? If we speak of the life, death and resurrection of Christ, what He began is the salvation of all men.

You seem to be a bit obtuse here, if you don’t mind me saying so.

You’re defining this passage way too general for what it was speaking of. SPECIFICALLY, this passage was dealing with the progression of salvation of God’s elect.

Notice how Paul states in Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose.”

First, you must recognize that Paul is NOT talking of ALL THE WORLD. He is addressing born-again believers in Christ. The question is to them. The question is to “those who are the called according to His purpose.”

Secondly, the obvious question that flows from this is, “How is it that we know that all things work together for the good of God’s elect?”

Paul follows that with the answer to our question (vss. 29&30):

[SIGN]“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”[/SIGN]

Two things:

1. 
   *]These things which Paul makes mention of (“foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification”) are the continuing and unfolding process of salvation.
   
   *]It is TOTALLY a work of God. We can’t “foreknow”, and we can’t “predestinate”, and we can’t “call” and we can’t "justify, and we can’t “glorify”. Everyone of those works is a function of God.
   
   That is why Paul could say, [SIGN]“For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”[/SIGN]